caulfield12

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 06:48 PM) That's true for anyone though. We saw what a hand/thumb injury did to Paulie last year. All it takes is something small for anyone, but Taveras doesn't have the injury history that Pods does. He'll be 28 next year so he's still young enough that we'd get him in his groin's prime. Plus, Taveras doesn't have quite as many miles on his tires. He spent so long in the minors, and he really wore down his body and his legs stealing bases, because that was the only way he could prove to the Mariners and then Brewers he belonged in the big leagues. Not to mention Paulie had the rib cage pull/tear and hurt his knee down the stretch. When he was closer to 100% in the final 6 weeks, he was back to the normal Konerko we've come to suspect.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 06:44 PM) Not only that, but one tweak of the groin sends Taveras from a modestly acceptable player to nothing. We saw what being bothered by a leg injury did to Podsednik in 2006. Taveras is only effective at 100%. Over an 162 game season, even more with playoffs, that is quite the risk. Having 100% of your effectiveness based on your legs is a recipe for disaster. Well, then we should trade away Thome, Dye, AJ and Konerko because they're MORE likely to get injured...and Vazquez, Buehrle and especially Jenks because they too are injury risks. You take away the legs of Hanley Ramirez or Jose Reyes, they're going to be dramatically less effective as hitters and fielders as well. Nobody can play well with injuries. However, when you have a younger/speedier/more athletic team, the odds are in your favor, and having one fast player on your team go down won't cripple your entire line-up. This is more how the Angels and Rays attack other teams. Actually, the Red Sox with Ellsbury are fairly similar...although I'm sure we could have another LONG debate/thread comparing Ellsbury to Taveras too.

QUOTE (KevinM @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 06:37 PM) It would have been fine with me. Unfortunately, Nick had a rather bad season. Of course, you're probably going off last year's numbers only -- something you wouldn't want us to do for Taveras. The point is that Swisher has never been a leadoff hitter and that's not a place where he is comfortable. You can't fit a round peg in a square hole. We kind of saw that with Cabrera leading off...or AJ hitting second. They were so-so, but there are many out there who could have done better. Swisher, obviously not being one of them. Taveras is, and he's coming off a so-so season. If we always wanted to acquire talent at it's highest possible value, and not expect it to fall in value but continue rising, KW should quit playing General Manager and just go to work not for Warren Buffett but for Obama, because it's going take that level of intelligence (someone who's always right about the future) and prescience to get us out of this financial/economic mess.

QUOTE (KevinM @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 06:30 PM) He's only done this once, in a 97 game season. The likelihood of him eclipsing .300/.340 in a full season is minimal at best. OBP absolutely trumps SLG%, that's irrefutable. Leadoff isn't a position, it's simply a spot in the order, one that doesn't matter much as a player leads off once (!) a game. The important thing is finding a high OBP player to put there, not a fast guy with a terrible OBP. Maybe we should try Nick Swisher there. He has a REALLY high career OBP. Great, problem solved! Let's dance! Cue David Bowie soundtrack. Everybody Wang Chung tonight. THIS DEBATE IS MORE FUN/AMUSING THAN debating what the government here in Thailand will do to open the Bangkok airport.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 06:15 PM) Why do you have to be such a turd sandwich then? That is your opinion that OBP trumps SLG%. I'd say it does in certain positions in the order, like say Mike Jacobs can fit his power and very low OBP in the #6 slot of a team much better than a guy who gets on and doesn't have power could. For lead-off OBP does trump SLG which makes it stupid that I keep seeing comments about SLG% and OPS regarding a lead-off spot. You do not need to hit home runs if you lead off, and you don't need a whole lot of triples or doubles if you can steal efficiently. I don't know how you can say Willy offers no OBP skills. He makes contact, he does walk some, and his speed allows him to hit for a higher average than most players because he can put down bunts and beat them out. His average strongly affects his OBP and if he hits .320, which he did in '07 and can do again, he'll get on at a .360-.370 clip. It is a lot easier for a player like him to hit .310-.320 because he can put bunts down when the IF are playing back, or hit the ball past him when they come in and give up range. You mean our CF doesn't have to be a combination of Rickey Henderson (1980), Alphonso Soriano and Grady Sizemore, with a Brady Anderson steroids year thrown in for good measure??? C'mon. Obviously, there are many CFers out there with Roberto Clemente's arm, Mickey Mantle's speed, Joe Borchard's raw power, Devon White's defensive prowess and a combination of Brett/Boggs/Ichiro/Gwynn at the plate. With Ripken's history of resisting injuries and playing through pain. And he must have Kirby Puckett's infectious personality thrown in for good measure.

I think if we substituted Pods' numbers over his career before he came to the White Sox, nobody would have been very excited to acquire him. In fact, most were griping/complaining about losing El Caballo and replacing him with a zero power hitter. SPEED NEVER SLUMPS. DEFENSE NEVER SLUMPS. HAVING A GOOD ARM DOESN'T DISAPPEAR EITHER, ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS. (Of these three, Owens gives you ONLY one thing, because his CF defense is so-so or adequate, partially because of his arm but other deficiencies exist as well...TAVERAS GIVES YOU ALL THREE ON A CONSISTENT BASIS). Point 2, Jerry Owens isn't a reasonable facsimile of Wily Taveras. And it's not that close. Just ask KW or anyone with the White Sox FO. Sure, we can pick apart Taveras' 2007 season, but if we went by one season, Jon Danks would have been horrible in 2008 based on his 2007 numbers and Gavin Floyd never would have been acquired based on his past MLB stats. Alexei Ramirez would have been playing in Winston-Salem or Birmingham, based on "conventional" wisdom.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 04:46 PM) Orlando isn't exactly slow. Trading him out for a worse hitter who doesn't walk that is a step faster isn't going to fix the problem. I just see no way Taveras fixes the problem atop of the order. He may end up being the best option, but he's not the solution (nor an improvement, imo). Three steps faster...there's a big difference psychologically. Opposing teams would never be afraid of Cabrera coming up to bat. They might be of Pods, Carlos Gomez/Denard Span, Taveras, etc.

Taveras DOES change that, if you have Tadahito Iguchi from 2005/06 batting second. Jumping out in front in the beginning of games and having a bullpen that could consistently hold 1-2 run leads from the get-go did wonders for that team's confidence and ultimately is the reserve they drew upon to push through in September and October. They believed if they had any lead they would win that game. That's why manufacturing runs (especially without the benefit of a hit) in the early innings was so important...to put pressure on the other team. I agree bunting is not always the panacea, and should not be overdone, but nothing puts fear in another team (and its pitcher) more than a leadoff hitter that you know is going to bunt but you still might not be able to throw him out...and once he gets on, it's an automatic double or triple and the pitcher's distracted already and throwing out of the stretch to the meat of the order. Which also will lead to more fastballs, which those hitters thrive on.

If Ramirez doesn't backslide and become the next Mike Caruso, lol. Actually this whole theory about high OBP would have been interesting to test, had Swisher actually turned out to be capable of doing that...it's not only finding high OPB players, but high OBP players that are comfortable and effective in the 1 and 2 spots in the batting order. AJ batting second out of necessity is an example. Right now, the best possibilities that are both highly unlikely are Taveras/Cabrera (neither one of them would be guaranteed of being over .330 OBP in my opinion) and Taveras/Ramirez (once again, how is Ramirez going to be able to get to a .330 OBP without walking?)

QUOTE (Fotop @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 04:27 PM) Sign me up for anything that involves Yunel Escobar. If we're concerned about a ramirez/escobar dp combo blocking beckham...they can always move alexei to cf when the moment arrives. I think Escobar is a hell of a ballplayer though and the type of guy we need to target if we're actually going to move dye. This is where a Blanco/Escobar trade for Dye and Jenks makes a heck of a lot of sense (hopefully we do this deal without including Fields or Poreda as well). However, if we have to give up Vazquez instead of Jenks, it creates another set of problems, because we'd be in trouble (arguably) replacing two starting pitchers. Then again, KW would have another $15-20 million to play around with...which could be interesting, to say the least. The Padres absolutely believe Cubs GM Jim Hendry can make this a three-way trade to get the Padres the pitching they need in addition to third-base prospect Josh Vitters. The Braves were not going to have to surrender any of their five best prospects, but have hesitated over Class A-level pitching. Peavy is a Cy Young winner, in case anyone's forgotten. from espn.com/peter gammons one would believe this makes a deal attractive to KW, unless he gets Blanco at a minimum and a AA/AAA prospect, like the young catcher, Flowers I think his his name?

Ramirez continues to produce phenomenal all around numbers in front of crowds more appropriate for professional bowling and the national spelling bee. What would the baseball landscape look like if Ramirez was being protected by David Ortiz in the heart of the Boston order and hitting balls off a Monster that is dark green rather than teal? Would the Red Sox have won the World Series in 2007 with a 3-4-5 of Hanley Ramirez, David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez, but no Josh Beckett? Would they have been able to come back in the ALCS without Beckett's unbelievable performances? With that offense, would they be down 3-1 in the first place? from same article Interesting things to ponder in the midst of hot stove season.

But why would you trade the relative certainty of Dye or Vazquez for someone who might never be the same again? I could see trading Jenks for Duchscherer (as part of a package)...I also think BB is too smart to give away Justin at such a point. It would be like the White Sox trying to trade Crede after the 2007 season. They simply have to wait and see if he can re-establish his value. The risk of getting nothing for him is less than the risk that he returns to form and they miss out on the kind of trade return that could really impact their future performance positively.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 04:13 PM) Mike Cameron and his .331 OBP? You're saying that somehow I'm supposed to find that to be good? Well, maybe compared to what Taveras did last year, but still... Exactly, the point is HOW DIFFICULT it is to find someone...the magic, pristine bullet theory. He's not out there...so we will have to accept some imperfections in our leadoff hitter. Of all those players, either they are currently unavailable (aka "dream/roto/playstation") acquisitions or they're flawed. Mike Cameron, at his age, and coming from the NL to the AL, would I want that? Well, I would probably choose that over an Anderson/Owens platoon, but not by much more than a whisker. He has a little bit left in his tank, but to stand the wear and tear of batting leadoff in the AL again and playing CF every day? Doubt it. I don't think KW is giving Cameron much if any consideration either. Now, OTOH, Blanco is an interesting target and his name logically pops up in a possible Jenks/Vazquez/Dye deal to the Braves. The only other obvious possibility is another thread figuring out what can be done to make Michael Bourn Supremacy a .340-.350 OBP type of player.

Of course, going back to Pods' 2005, we don't really have an obvious Iguchi-type hitter on the team either...definitely not AJ. Ramirez is a candidate...but do you want someone with his potential ability thinking about sacrificing and giving up so many at-bats? Do you want to consciously change the more aggressive nature of his approach by putting him in the 2 spot? It's almost funny to even consider it, but this line-up would be best (with Taveras as the leadoff hitter) with Orlando Cabrera batting second. And Brian Anderson is definitely NEVER going to be either a 1 or 2 hitter in the big leagues on his best day.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/battin...ull&minpa=0 According to the theories of some people here on the board, using OBP as the holy grail and only measure, we should get either Gregor Blanco or Mike Cameron. Cody Ross, McLouth and Matt Kemp are going to be prohibitively expensive to acquire. Go to that page and tell me what players the White Sox realistically have a shot at??? Taveras was at least better than Carlos Gomez at getting on base and wouldn't cost us very much at all. Maybe he's Option C or D, but he has to be on the radar screen. As much as we're complaining about him, I can't imagine the complaints after KW trades away the farm system again for Brian Roberts. Otherwise, we are going to have to target someone like Dickerson without much of an established track record...who may or may not be better than Jerry Owens as a leadoff hitter and CFer.

QUOTE (scenario @ Nov 29, 2008 -> 08:31 AM) I agree. But if the mlb.com article yesterday is true, and not just blowing smoke, 9 teams have contacted Griffey's agent expressing interest. If that is the case, then the odds of him accepting arbitration by December 7th or whatever are small. Griffey's official salary was $8.3 million, not counting all the bonuses and other ancillary benefits from his contract. So they could cut him to $6.7 million...but I don't know if they could win that case for sure. They might end up paying him around $9 million instead, and I don't think he's worth 80% of Jermaine Dye. The other question is how many teams out there would be willing to pay Griffey MORE than $6.7 million for 2009?

Not to mention Buehrle is.... 1) Much better with the press, and more likely to take responsibility for poor starts, show anger and emotion...not talk about his "comfy life" or "doing better next time" 2) World Series/playoff performances 3) Decade in the White Sox organization (last truly homegrown pitcher to make it from Draft Day to All-Star level success) 4) His leadership 5) His colorful personality, sense of humor and "tarp sliding"

http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=97S...llvQ_2blBPwI_3d Poll results about which Type B free agents would be offered arbitration...Milton Bradley was one of the few players placed at 50% or higher. Uribe was only around 12%.

Nebraska has the tradition...being a Cornhusker is the equivalent of being a professional athlete there, because of the attention and adulation (and pressure) placed on Nebraska athletes. Many former pros played for Osborne...etc. They also control not only their state (no in-state rival) but the Dakotas and many parts of the near-West. I think Missouri and Nebraska will struggle for awhile with TX/OU and then TT and OSU also emerging as powers...they don't have to play ALL of those teams each year, but probably 2 of them. And then KSU made a crazy choice to bring in Bill Snyder, that move doesn't make much sense at all to me.

We didn't acquire Scott Podsednik for his high OPB, RBI numbers or power either....not even defense or arm. He was pretty much the definition of one-dimension, Taveras is a better all-around baseball player IMO, and younger.

Well, another way to look at it is we're tied for 12th with the Cardinals and Blue Jays. I just don't understand any of the fascination with picking the Indians or the Tigers over us...and logic would say that Blue Jays would have a MUCH tougher time just getting out of their own division, let alone advancing in the playoffs. I mean, they'd have to beat either New York, TB or Boston just to make it. And the odds are they'll be losing their #2 starter in Burnett in the process of starting off in that quest. Not likely.

I would much rather have Brandon Phillips than Orlando Hudson...I definitely think Hudson will decline over the length of a 4-5 year contract, even a three year one. He also seems to be a player susceptible to injuries, like Furcal now. That said, Phillips would be one of the more expensive players to acquire in terms of talent, outside the likes of Bruce, Cueto and Volquez.

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ Nov 27, 2008 -> 05:42 AM) Firesale after winning the division, nice. Firesales are auctioning off players like Lofton, Durham, Howry, etc. We're hardly doing that, unless you consider when we traded Freddy Garcia and Brandon McCarthy to be "fire sales." I certainly didn't. There's no reason you can't get younger, more athletic and have a more flexible payroll at the same time. Our best team in the last four years was the one with clearly the lowest payroll. Did we have a "fire sale" to get rid of Carlos Lee, Valentin and Ordonez. I think not, although some consider the Lee for Pods deal exactly that kind of trade.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 26, 2008 -> 10:22 PM) Or the Angels. Think of all we could've gotten for guys like Dallas McPherson, Brandon Wood, and co. There is no reason to believe Kenny would have sat on his hands over Miguel Cabrera last year like the Angels did. Kenny tried as hard as he could, but we didn't have the bullets (although I'm glad we didn't do that deal because we would have lost Johnny Danks, who is already better than the entire package the Tigers offered IMO). Maybe, but I think Cameron Maybin will be a stud...you can argue all you want about the merits of a starting pitcher versus a position player though. And A. Miller still has time to get his act together. Nobody gives up on lefty starters who throw in the 90's quickly.

1) Garland won't come back here, I think he'll end up in the NL 2) He's not worth whatever he is asking..which is about the same as Vazquez makes 3) We need younger/cheaper options at 4th/5th starter, not MORE expensive (per KW's recent pronouncements) 4) He'll get 3-4 years, JR and KW don't like to give long-term deals, Buehrle was the one exception and Contreras