caulfield12

For all those saying they prefer Vazquez over Chris Young... How many of you would even think of betting the White Sox (and Javy) to win Game 1 up in Minnesota? Any takers? Just for argument's sake, I would like to see those who have enough confidence in Javier that they would go out and bet $1,000 on the Sox Tuesday night? I think some good can come out of this season, no matter what happens. If we fall short, KW will be forced to think over and over again about the Twins and how he can put together a team to beat them more than once every decade. If the Twins are in the head of our star pitcher who has won playoff and World Series games and our manager and announcers and most Sox fans, KW will be forced to confront his failures again (although his successes this season are many) by the media, Sox fest and season ticket holders. If the Twins were to beat us yet again, it would expose the fundamental flaw in KW's logic of a power-only based team tailored specifically for Comiskey...because Minnesota also has to play on the road, both teams have equal home field and away discrepancies. Neither has an advantage or disadvantage inherently. It seems Buddy Bell really needs to think long and hard about why so many players are lacking in the basic fundamentals (players that aren't "power" hitters or 3-4-5 in the order) when they reach the big league level. Someone like Andy Gonzalez is the perfect example...the type of player that, if nothing else, should be able to do the "little things" to help the team, as he's neither a power nor a speed-asset player, and below-average defensively. How did a player like that reach the big leagues and get so much playing time?

QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 10:32 PM) More rambling that ignores the point, changes the subject and does nothing to counter my argument. And again, you're just comparing him to other managers. Apparently, Ozzie defenders can't read English correctly. I never mentioned a specific manager could win more. That's another flaw to your argument. You're trying to counter an argument that isn't there. You're not arguing with me, only the idea of what you want to THINK I'm saying. Wake up. And Like I've said, watch the games. See the horrible calls to do or not do something, timing, his decisions of pulling people too late or too soon, mismanaging his bullpen (not just this year so don't start with that "we have nobody good in the pen"), and everything else. He does it so often it's blatantly obvious he is a CLUELESS in-game manager. "Oh, but he has the passion! And he gets them fired up! And he gets them motivated! And he knows how to treat his players (which is not true at all)! But he gets the best talent out of his players (more bulls***)!" Really? Then why do the Sox still look like a terrible team for 2 1/2 years in a row? And BTW obviously he does NOT get the most talent out of his players. That's obvious this year. Another contradiction (actually it's a flat out LIE) of the prototypical Ozzie defender. Being a good "motivational" manager (a huge cop out to Ozzie's inability is all that is) and being a good in-game manager is two different things. I'm not saying Ozzie is a bad motivational manager (even though he does f*** that up sometimes, too), I'm saying Ozzie is a bad in-game manager, which is OBVIOUS, and it costs your team a lot of games, which it has. So far you're just another Ozzie defender in denial that fails to make a logical argument to back up your (and his) case, simply changing the subject and twisting other people's words around into your own "logic." You can say the same thing for those fans who always think getting rid of the manager/coach or putting in the back-up quarterback will solve everything...I always hear complaints about Guillen, but not as much before-the-fact second-guessing as afterwards. It's easy to look back on any game in hindsight. The problem is there's no way to say YOUR choice or idea would have worked better. It's why the ratio of praise versus criticism (especially after games) is always 1 to 10... Guillen was very patient with Ramirez, quickly identified him (from spring training on) as the "baseball" player and not just a raw athlete he was, and kept him around on the big league roster, waiting for the warm weather, which he correctly predicted would help...as well as regular at-bats. If you look at every scouting report on Ramirez, and what the other teams that went to his tryout that passed on offering a contract said...you have to give some credit to both KW and OG. Same with Ozzie's almost overabundant praise of Iguchi as the MVP. When Guillen has players on is team that can play the game the right way, he's always effusive with his praise. He gives players many chances to fail (see Boone Logan) and always has been very patient and supportive of the starters (Garland, Contreras, Vazquez...now Danks and Floyd, too)...I remember that this was something that Manuel was always attacked for, not letting Garland pitch out of trouble. Two seasons ago, it was that Javier could never get past the 5th/6th inning, yet Ozzie stuck with him and they got through that season and seemingly turned things around, without giving up on Javier and trading him yet again. Would Contreras have succeeded equally well with another manager and pitching coach? Thornton? Jenks? You can look at "in-game" tactics all you want, but if those players don't have the right clubhouse environment around them, they don't believe and trust in their manager and teammates...then they usually don't make the playoffs. Another example, in 2005, everyone was crucifying Guillen for his Sunday line-ups and playing the bench players so often. Well, apparently that "rest" kicked in the final week or so of the season, and players like Blum and Willie Harris went out to make key contributions because they got enough opportunities to play down the stretch. Any tactical/strategic manager is still only as good as hunches and past statistical analyses and trends. You can have all the books and computer printouts in the world, but you can't teach intuition and having a feel for the game. Some managers have it, others don't. You have to find the right button to push with each player. While motivation is sometimes overestimated in baseball (it's not football), you can't sell that part of Guillen's contributions short. Seemingly every time the team has needed a mental boost of lift, Ozzie getting on them at just the right time (but not too much, where it loses all meaning and players roll their eyes) has worked well this season...when the team has struggled, Ozzie has focused the attention on himself, Mariotti, the Cubs, etc., and the team has usually relaxed and played better baseball after that.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:44 PM) We dont have enough to get Ichiro. He isnt coming here. But that wasn't the point of my comments, you stated about Swishers OPS is only .10 worse. Beckham looks like a line drive swing with some power. Hopefully we A.) keep him B.) dont let our minor league instruction mess him up. C.) he stays healthy. Which goes back to the whole Chris Young trade again. He's young, dynamic and affordable. He does everything well besides throw. 46 doubles. Everyone will just throw out his OPS and OBP and say he's horrible, but I don't buy that argument. Obviously, he's a much different player than Ichiro, but I am not convinced we're so much better off with Javier Vazquez. At worse, he's Mike Cameron. And that's a lot better than our CF situation has been for the last three years. It's like just looking at Tadahito Iguchi's stats in 2005 on paper. They don't come close to telling the entire story. With Ichiro, how many errors did he force on the infield with his speed? How many pitchers gave up RBI's because they were concentrating on Ichiro at 1B or 2B? How many runners didn't advance because of his presence and arm in CF and RF? How many times did he move a runner over successfully? Don't get me started about our inability to bunt. Listening to both games today, it struck me the way that most teams' announcers say "and they're off to the races" as soon as a somewhat speedy guy gets on against anyone besides Buehrle. Mauer, you simply don't run on that guy. I kind of miss the days of Karkovice or even Miguel Olivo...when Harrelson was hyping him to be something he wasn't. But it was fun while it lasted.

QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:32 PM) Did I EVER say anything about Ron or the Twins? No, I'm just saying OZZIE is a horrible manager and that if we had a better one we'd have a LOT more wins under our belt. It seems like the #1 (maybe ONLY) "Ozzie Defense" is comparison to other managers. How bad Ozzie is has nothing to do with other managers, period. And I don't mean to be rash, but the fact you credit Guillen for us being a few games up in a terrible division when Minnesotta has lost what... 8 of ten or something and we've hardly gained anything... you HAVE to be f***ing joking. That makes me laugh REALLY hard. And those managers would be who exactly? LaRussa? Maddon? Scioscia? Torre? Jerry Manuel? Francona? Piniella? Dusty Baker? Cito Gaston (only bring his name up because he almost got the job instead of Guillen)? I don't buy it. None of those guys would have the same pride about managing this team that Guillen does. The White Sox had/have a much more difficult schedule in the last six weeks than the Twins. I think something like 3-4 more series with teams over .500. It's like the whole Phil Jackson thing...how can he manage without great players? Is Leyland horrible after being great before? Well, what happened this year or in Colorado? What happened to Torre at the end in NY or in Atlanta? What about Piniella in TB? Isn't Maddon winning with many of the same players that Lou couldn't get to believe in themselves? Everyone says Manuel was the worst manager in their lifetime, with the exception of Bevington, right? Yet he's done okay in NY so far. You can't simply say XYZ manager would have the White Sox 5-10 games ahead of the Twins. Is Eric Wedge horrible or great? That team has pinballed all over the place over the last 3-4 seasons. Who's to say they wouldn't have won the WS with Guillen there?

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:24 PM) Ichiro has a .314 BA with a .365 OBP striking out only 61 times with 43 stolen bases with great defense and a rocket arm. I would love to have that player on our team. He would be more valuable to our team than 2 or 3 Swishers. But alas, who are you going to trade in order to acquire him? We would have to wait until July 31st to trade Beckham. I can't think of anyone besides Floyd, Danks, Ramirez, Jenks or Quentin that the Mariners would want to have from either our major or minor league roster. They're certainly not going to make bringing back Matt Thornton a centerpiece of the deal....that would be too embarassing. Having learned their lesson with Sexson, Bedard and to a lesser extent Beltre, they're not going to want Konerko, Dye or Swisher. I think KW will do something risky like dangle Jenks out there...because he has so few players with any current/future value to other teams, besides the ones I listed that everybody in baseball knows about.

QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:16 PM) If the Sox blow the Division and playoff spot this year, I not only blame the offense, the defense and the bullpen, but I also blame Jeff Cox and especially Ozzie Guillen. His incompetence as a manager becomes more magnified every year, and down the stretch this year he has been a joke. It's almost as if he wants this team to lose. I'll repeat my earlier post...do you really think Twins fans are happy with Gardenhire? They believe that it's the Twins' "Way" and the system that has produced the results, not Gardenhire. Both managers have the same exact problem....horrible/questionable bullpens. We all say that anyone could have managed the 2005 White Sox because they were so efficient in their roles, but could all of us managed the clubhouse and tension to hold back the Cleveland charge? It's easy when you have the talent of the Red Sox or Angels to manage those teams. This White Sox team was 72-90 last year, let us not forget. Please read the following and tell me why Minnesota SHOULD NOT be ahead of us right now? If Gardenhire was such a great manager, wouldn't they have performed better on the road?? They have The Franchise, Joe Nathan, the American League MVP (maybe) and best catcher in baseball. It's not like they are without talent. Everyone agreed a month ago they had the far easier schedule, despite the road trip. Nobody forced them to lose so many games to CLE, Toronto and Seattle. They did it to themselves...just as the team (and not manager) has put themselves in this precarious situation. Not Guillen. If you lose twice to Kyle Davies, is that Guillen's fault?? How? Post-ASB, Minnesota has outpitched us, 4.04 ERA to 4.73 (the other top five teams in the AL are 1-5, ranging from 3.40 to 4.20). We are right around 9th/10th and still fading...we might even be 10th behind KC, I didn't take the time to readjust/recalculate after tonight's disaster. Our pitching, which was a strength in 2005 and the first half of 2008, just hasn't been there, especially the bullpen. 2) The Twins have an average of .311 with RISP. If they continue that for the next week, they will have the best team average with RISP in the AL IN THE LAST 34 YEARS. 3) The Twins have outscored us 331 to 302 post ASB. Twins, 2nd in AL runs scored since the break, White Sox 9th again. We were leading by 1 1/2 games at the break. We are now leading by 2 1/2 games. How is that even possible? I think a lot of the credit has to go to Guillen. You can't argue the fact that injuries haven't had more of an effect on the White Sox than the Twins in the second half.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 09:10 PM) I want some line drive hitters to augment our power base. That doesn't translate to Tavares. I just noticed that one of our popular trade targets, Ichiro, has an OPS exactly 0.10 points higher than Swisher. Unfortunately, McLouth, Granderson, Cody Ross, Matt Kemp, Shane Victorino and BJ Upton don't come cheap. And Rowand (dare I utter that name) still isn't worth that type of money.

QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 08:53 PM) I wonder how many years KW can ride the 2005 wave? He may have a few issues on his plate this offseason. The White Sox have been very competitive for five of the last 9 seasons. Arguably, at different points in 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2008, they were the best team in the AL. 2001 and 2004, and, to a large extent, we can wash away due to injuries. 2002 was something of a transition year for the franchise (deciding players like Lofton and Royce Clayton weren't good fits). That's very good, compared to the 1960's through 1999 history of the White Sox.

QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 08:48 PM) There's minimal speed, minimal defense and no timely hitting. It's semi-talented corpseball rearing its ugly head, yet again. Yet the composition of the roster and KW's "indomitable" nature makes it almost impossible to rebuild and turn the roster over...among the position players. He has done a great job (I think) revamping the pitching staff, and we would be in very good shape if not for Linebrink going down (although second-guessers would say what did you expect with his recent history of overuse and declining velocity?) Having Dotel at $6 million and MacDougal, though....there's a lot better use of $8 million dollars. Better to send that money to bail out Lehman Brothers or AIG, MSDW or Goldman Sachs. Ramirez and Quentin are in their prime years. Crede WAS, past tense. AJ, Thome, Dye, Cabrera, Konerko, all players in their their early to mid 30's. That leaves what, Anderson and Uribe? Both are the opposite of fundamentally-sound players, although BA gives you good defense at least, same with Juanie. But offensively? Who knows? That leaves the only options as trading Swisher (not logical), Konerko (not logical, coming off this season) or Dye. Yet trading Dye doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because this team is set up for Comiskey, and he's worth more to the Sox than teams playing in big ballparks. Can we really trade Dye and get back another, younger Quentin/Dye-player, but more athletic? I don't think there are too many of those rare, undiscovered gems lying around...like Josh Hamilton. Maybe I'm underestimating KW again. He's proven that can be very dangerous by taking a 72-90, aging, dead in the roster water and putting us at the doorsteps of the playoffs. Ultimately, the failure of the first rounders like Borchard, Honel, Fields, Broadway and McCulloch will be the story of this organization...yet, somehow, we are 3rd in winning percentage over the last 15 years, trailing only the Braves and Yankees.

QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 08:29 PM) Ever since we had Ozzie s*** the bed in Baltimore on the makeup game, this team has been in a nosedive. The reality is that the fundamental composition of this team changed on July 22nd when Linebrink went out. From that point on, almost every single reliever on this team has struggled at various times in the 7th and the 8th in roles they were uncomfortable taking/inheriting. Those 2005 Sox were so good because Hermanson, Politte, Cotts and Jenks were lights out and automatic almost the entire season. Even Thornton and Jenks have had their moments in the 2nd half where they looked very beatable. I'm not going to list all of the relievers and their post ASB ERA's, it would be too horrific. The reality is both the White Sox and Twins have been treading water for weeks now, with neither team wanting to take the bull by the horns and run away with the division when the opportunity was presented. I actually think, when history looks back on this season, that it will go down as one of Guillen's better managing jobs. You can throw out those hypothetical W/L records based on runs scored and runs given up, but they don't tell the tale, because the offense produced by the White Sox is so erratic/schitzophrenic. This has been the truth ever since 2000 when the offense and pitching carried the team until injuries decimated the pitching staff and we were again playing more of less .500 ball for the remainder of the 2nd half...or fading even worse in 2006. While the offense is getting a lot of the blame, the best White Sox runs (first half 2000, 2005, first half 2008) have been fueled by great pitching and at least solid or adequate defense. Then we have the offensive anomaly of the first half of 2006 masking/covering the pitching problems that were beginning to take their toll. KW designed this team for the new ballpark, and that has it's advantages and disadvantages, just as the Twins' composition can be a detriment on the road as well. If nothing else, losing the ability to manufacture runs, steal bases and play fundamentally sound ball has hurt this team as much as anything. Speed and fundamentals never slump...which is why the Twins could always beat us, because they never beat themselves (at least until the last couple of seasons, and when our pitching was completely dominant in 2005). Over a 162 game season, their consistency would always come back to get us...it's kind of like comparing Martina Hingis and Anna Kournikova. We hit the big home runs, launch fireworks and put up the gaudy statistics...while the Twins just "hold serve" and do what they're supposed to do until the other teams beat themselves. Going along with the tennis analogy, Hingis/Twins are always fine until they run into the superior firepower of big budget teams like the Yankees, Angels, Red Sox and sheer talent overwhelms consistency and fundamentals.

Well, we can't be 100% sure that Danks didn't go to Cooper and Ozzie and say something...remember all the posts about shutting down Danks for the last month despite his Top 5 AL ERA? Maybe they didn't want to have Buehrle and Danks back-to-back. Maybe they had reason to believe that Floyd would give them a better chance to beat the Twins than Danks. I don't know. I guess we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out the rest of the season. At this point, I would trust Baker/Liriano/Slowey in the playoffs over any top three the White Sox can throw out there, just because those guys have been so inconsistent over the 2nd half. Certainly, the White Sox have the experience (including WS for Buehrle and Jenks), but we've replaced so much of our pitching staff from 3 short years ago. Three things to consider... Post-ASB, Minnesota has outpitched us, 4.04 ERA to 4.73 (the other top five teams in the AL are 1-5, ranging from 3.40 to 4.20). We are right around 9th/10th and still fading...we might even be 10th behind KC, I didn't take the time to readjust/recalculate after tonight's disaster. Our pitching, which was a strength in 2005 and the first half of 2008, just hasn't been there, especially the bullpen. 2) The Twins have an average of .311 with RISP. If they continue that for the next week, they will have the best team average with RISP in the AL IN THE LAST 34 YEARS. 3) The Twins have outscored us 331 to 302 post ASB. Twins, 2nd in AL runs scored since the break, White Sox 9th again. We were leading by 1 1/2 games at the break. We are now leading by 2 1/2 games. How is that even possible? I think a lot of the credit has to go to Guillen. You can't argue the fact that injuries haven't had more of an effect on the White Sox than the Twins in the second half. Quentin, Linebrink, Contreras, Crede > Michael Cuddyer

Well, the Twins are just as taxed. Perkins has basically imploded, to the point where they have to skip over him in the rotation....his ERA is at 9.75 his last four starts. Blackburn is in the same situation...and he will have to pitch against the Sox. And we have to remember all of the Twins' starters are first or second year pitchers, 25-26 years old. Ultimately, the Twins lost the Baker start on 3 day's rest, even though he pitched well. We'll see if Liriano can bounce back from his last start...his first bad one since the comeback. He has really been lucky to avoid most of the best hitting teams in the AL, or he's faced them (like CLE) when they were depleted or simply not hitting the ball very well. IF IF IF the White Sox lose tomorrow and the Twins win, there's going to be a lot of nervousness for 2 days, waiting to see which Javier Vazquez shows up in Game 1.

QUOTE (MexSoxFan#1 @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 07:56 PM) IMO Jose Contreras when healthy still has Ace stuff,when his velocity is in the 92-94 mph range,his offspeed stuff is wicked...in the game that he went down he was hitting the mid 90s... I think it's fair to say that Contreras, until he started hurting again this season, was at least the equivalent of a #3 starter and for some teams, a #2. Was he the same pitcher as 2nd half 2005 and first half 2006? Not really close. He'd lost 2-4 MPH off his fastball and advanced in age. But he was at least worth the money he was making, which you couldn't say in 2007 and for 1/3rd of this season before he blew out his Achille's.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 20, 2008 -> 07:48 PM) Twins have had a lot of injuries this season, same with Indians. I didn't know Dye and AJP are injured? The Twins lost Cuddyer for a large stretch of the season. Neshek, their best RH set-up reliever. Rincon self-destructed. Crain was in his first year off Tommy John, same with Liriano. Alexi Casilla was out for awhile. Everett has been injured pretty much the entire season.

The way TB is playing at home (best record since the 1998 Yankees), it almost doesn't matter if it's the Twins or the White Sox. Yeah, yeah, we COULD get hot at just the right moment...but the odds of that happening are very low. You just get the feeling that the Rays will let up against Liriano after clinching and that Danks will be off with too much rest and Brandon Duckworth will somehow beat us...leaving us up only 1 1/2 games going into Minnesota. And then of course Nick Blackburn will throw a shutout after Vazquez loses YET ANOTHER big game against the Twins...and the season will come down to Slowey versus Gavin Floyd. I don't think any Sox fans would be suprised to see that scenario play out now, unfortunately...not after watching this team for almost an entire season.

Scott Baker, Nick Blackburn and Kevin Slowey will face the White Sox. Then, Francisco Liriano, Perkins and Baker will pitch the final series against the Royals. from startribune.com So it's Vazquez versus Baker, Blackburn (who just got torched by TB) against Buehrle, then Floyd versus Slowey. They moved Slowey up to take Perkins' spot...Perkins will then wait/rest for over a week to start Saturday against KC. I'm really not confident about that first game, so the pressure is definitely on Mark to deliver against a mightily struggling Blackburn. Both Vazquez and Baker are coming off starts on three days' rests, but will have their regular rest before this game. Slowey also figures to be a tough customer, he's one of their Top 3. He has one shutout against us in his home appearance, the other two times this season he was hit pretty hard at Comiskey. The Royals will use Gil Meche in the projected final game of the season against the Twins (Sunday). If Trey Hillman wanted to, he could have Meche and then Greinke pitch the final two games of the season by skipping over Duckworth or Davies, still leaving Zach on his normal rest. Wonder if he would consider doing that after the White Sox/Twins series is finished and the Sox haven't taken a commanding lead or clinched the division? At least we miss their top two and the Twins will get one of them, if not two. Was reading another blog...Twins' top 3 third base targets are Beltre (although he's going to be coming off a thumb ligament problem), Kouzmanoff and Garrett Atkins.

One thing I'm not quite understanding is why they wouldn't want to have Danks face Minnesota. Minnesota has a much better record against RHP's than LHP's, and this has especially been borne out over the last 6-8 weeks of the season. It was the primary reason we used Clayton Richard against them the last time we faced them. Buehrle has the most wins of his career (team-wise) against the Twins, so I understand why he's slated to go, despite how poorly he has pitched on the road most of this season (5+ ERA, 4-9 record after tonight).

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Sep 19, 2008 -> 08:36 PM) Can we give them back Horacio tonight? And MacDougal...and Sisco...and Scott Sullivan!

Who's the first reliever we want to see in this game? Buerhle is at 74 pitches...so he has one or two more innings in all likelihood. I'm really scared to see anyone out there besides Thornton and Jenks, and Jenks scares me with that current four run lead. That's been his bugaboo twice in the last couple of weeks.

Well, a Thome homer that's actually helpful to our winning a game (hopefully). Yay! And speaking of brutal, is there anything worse than being a Brewers' fan about right now? Looks like they're going to let the Mets off the hook. Don't think Sveum will be getting the job after all. This is one move that is sure to be second-guessed by more than Yost-loyalist Bobby Cox in the off-season.

QUOTE (WSoxMatt @ Sep 19, 2008 -> 08:25 PM) 11-1 Rays...man the Twins pitching is emploding, and you thought we had problems Emploding, imploding or exploding...we'll take anything we can get!

The next big question is how long does Guillen stick with Buerhle? He's on three day's rest, and has thrown 42 pitches so far. As tempting as it would be to pull him after 5 or 6, the idea of the bullpen blowing the lead no matter how big it is truly scares me...even though it's a 6-0 lead right now. That darned Aviles would be in the Hall of Fame THIS YEAR if he played every game against the White Sox.

It will be interesting to see how Perkins and Blackburn react to getting knocked out after 2/3 IP and 1 1/3 IP next week...they should be well rested...and both have shown signs of fatigue coming down the stretch, especially Blackburn. So far, it looks like moving Buehrle up has been a good decision...not so with Javy. 6-0 now. Maybe that GS took the monkey off the back of this team. We'll see if they can sustain it the next two games. This team has been so schitzophrenic.

The funny thing is he almost "slowed" down his swing...it was just a perfectly placed fly ball. Wonder if this will be the Crede/Riske shot that puts us over the top and gets us through the weekend? We'll see if MB can go back out on the bump and shut down the Royals in the bottom of the inning. On August 2nd, he gave up 14 hits to the Royals in one of his ugliest starts ever...except one of those opening series at the Metrodome where he was supposedly tipping off his pitches.

If Bannister, Davies and Duckworth don't wake up our bats, then there's nothing Greg Walker can do at this point. If we do miss the playoffs and the offense completely goes south during the final 10 games, if nothing else, it will give everyone something to talk about during the offseason. Although I still doubt Ozzie and KW will pull the trigger.