caulfield12

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 05:50 PM) jon Rauch wasn't worthy of being named the best prospect in the country and BAmerica's minor league player of the year. But he's become a decent relief pitcher. He'd look nice in our pen. in fact, other than Buehrle or Garland, he's had a better career than all the other young guys from that era -- Ginter, Parque, Wells, Purvis, Fogg and the rest of those scrappers. Majewski and Biddle also had their moments in the sun. You can also include Aaron Myette, Josh Rupe, Kevin Beirne, Lorenzo Barcelo, Jason Stumm, Danny Wright, Jason Dellaero (well, he's going back a bit further)....then the failures of Honel and Corwin Malone and the bad drafts, Royce Ring comes to mind. All told, the biggest loss might be that of Frank Francisco (the chair thrower who went through a major surgery as well), who we got from the Red Sox for Howry and then traded as part of one of the Everett deals.

I would be fine with either guy too, as long as we don't guarantee them anything (either money or the 5th spot). Especially with Colon...he needs to have some incentives to compete and get in shape. If he needs to be motivated to pitch for the Red Sox, well, I'm not sure what the White Sox can do about him. He left a lot of Sox fans tantalized by his stuff but frustrated with his lackadaisical attitude and approach that seemed to say "I only pitch when I want to pitch," which usually meant the offense had to support him or he just kind of cruised along.

Wade Davis (coming into 2008) Position: RHSP Age:22.0 (23 in 2009) Projected 08 Level: AA/AAA Stats: Vero Beach (13 GS) - 78.1 IP 54 H 5 HR 88 K 21 BB 1.84 ERA Montgomery (14 GS) - 80 IP 74 H 3 HR 81 K 30 BB 3.15 ERA Another third of the Montgomery trio, Davis is more polished than McGee in terms of using his non-fastball pitches, although I'm not sure that any of his pitches can match the effectiveness of that McGee heater. http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/...ds/?pl_id=31183 Seems like Davis pitched much better in AAA than AA this year... He's the #3 prospect in their system, just named yesterday. Reid Brignac (SS) is 4th. Wonder if they would be willing to part with Desmond Jennings (OF)???

I didn't have a chance to see Price pitch at all, living in Thailand...so with that caveat, I can only go with what Wills and their broadcasters said...which, paraphrasing, was more along the lines of his command/control of his offspeed stuff and adding a third pitch (which may or may not be necessary, depending on who you speak with about Price). I do think with the struggles of the P. Hughes, Homer Baileys, Kershaw's, etc., that there are many more hyped/heralded pitching prospects that disappoint than those who go out right away and dominate, like Liriano did in 2006...even Dice-K, a veteran, went through a very long adjustment period his first season. With the White Sox, it's been so long since we've had a rookie pitch really well (I'm not even asking for total domination!)...you might have to go back to about 2-3 months of Kip Wells at the tail end of his first campaign. Buehrle started out of the pen...as he was still having to prove himself. And Garland was so-so for the better part of 3-4 seasons, then morphed into slightly above so-so, lol.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 11:22 PM) <!--quoteo(post=1792933:date=Nov 12, 2008 -> 10:38 PM:name=caulfield12)-->QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 10:38 PM) <!--quotec-->Danks and Liriano have the same fastball now, 91-93, touching 94 MPH. Liriano's slider is down from 87-90 into the low 80's. He's afraid to really let it go...that "muscle memory" of the injury seems to be affecting him mentally. Liriano mowed down the lower-tier teams (he had a lot of favorable match-ups) but he lost a couple of really big games down the stretch...I think his reputation from 2006 helped him to a large extent, but the jury's out if he will ever have that devastating slider back again (and if he uncorks it, how long his elbow will hold together). Would you trade Danks for Liriano TODAY, straight up? I wouldn't, because Danks has a nice, repeatable/easy delivery and doesn't look like nearly the injury risk that The Franchise does going forward. From to Fan Graphs: Danks in 2008: FB: 52.2% (91.3 average velocity)(89.5 in 2007) SL: 4.7% (83.9)(81.0) CT: 16.4% (87.1) CB: 6.4% (77.0)(76.9) CH: 20.3% (82.8)(81.7) K/9: 7.34 Liriano in 2008: FB: 53.6% (90.9)(94.7 in 2006) SL: 26.4% (83.7)(87.7) CH: 20.0% (82.0)(83.5) K/9: 7.93 This was still only his first stint back from ligament replacement surgery so we'll see what happens next year after he has a full offseason to strengthen that arm back up. Yeah, we'll have to see. The second year back (first full season) will be much more telling. If he's throwing 87-89 MPH sliders and is pain free, watch out. But I still don't see that elbow holding up...there's just too much torque the way he throws the 2006 slider not to have a recurrence. And it seemed Danks got stronger as the year went on...he was consistently 92-93 and sometimes 94 later in the season.

QUOTE (rockren @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 12:20 AM) LOL...I know. But the Rays aren't looking to deal Garza. There have been talks about them looking to deal Jackson because there isn't enough room for him going into next year. People just started mentioning Garza out of thin air. Because Kazmir and Price aren't going anywhere, and Sonnanstine/Jackson/Niemann, etc., are of limited interest to most GM's, unless they're looking for a 5th starter type.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Nov 13, 2008 -> 12:17 AM) WHAT?! You're ruining everyone's chance to DREAM! Obama's President, and Garza can be a White Sox! Oh, and duh, this is what happens at SoxTalk. People bring up possible scenarios, and then other posters jump in wanting Carl Crawford, Jake Peavy, Matt Garza, etc etc. Ummm....last time I checked, TB didn't have a closer, unless you consider Wheeler or Howell or Balfour to be closers in waiting? Definitely not Percival anymore. Price will certainly be in the rotation, at least that's the plan. You also have Niemann. So if Poreda can be spun off as another Billy Wagner/Arthur Rhodes, along with Dye...Poreda would be very interesting because he's cheap/affordable, Dye doesn't have an unreasonable contract and he would net them Type A compensation, too. So you have Dye (for at least one year), a first rounder in Poreda you control for six years at least, two Type A compensation picks for losing Dye and you're giving up a 2/3 starter and Ed. Morlan for that? I think it's a fair deal for both teams...and fills two big needs (power/RF) and bullpen/power arm for the Rays at the same time.

Dye and Poreda is NOT JUST Dye, far from it. Second, Bartlett was much more important to the Rays than anyone can possibly comprehend unless you watch them everyday and observe all the little things he does to win games....he's a super-smart baseball player. They also got E. Morlan. So it's not so simple as you've boiled it down to.

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 11:50 PM) Yeah well of course he still has a lot to prove as a SP, I don't disagree there. But his fastball and slider are top notch. And the Poreda/Price comparison really doesn't fit. Price is head and shoulders above Poreda right now. Which is why I don't think KW would hesitate to trade Dye and Poreda for Garza and Morlan. Swisher moves to LF, Quentin to his natural RF position. Nix and Getz hold 2B until Beckham comes up in August....Casey Blake is signed for 3B. The Taveras/Broadway or Russell deal goes through. There's your team. Of course, there's the possibility of Hudson, but KW won't go beyond 2 years IMO, not at Hudson's age and with Beckham in the pipeline. We sign Viciedo, Beckham is definitely ticketed for 2B, because Viciedo would be either a corner OF, 3B, DH or 1B. Also, if we were able to get Garza...that would move Vazquez to fifth starter, and Richard to the pen for Poreda's 2nd lefty role behind Thornton. We wouldn't have to trade Jenks, Fields, Anderson, Vazquez, Konerko, Thome, etc. This is a pretty logical set of moves. It's just that the Rays' GM Friedman won't part with Garza, IMO. And we might get outbid for Viciedo...it just depends on how much he would like to be around Ramirez/Contreras/Guillen, and how comfortable he would be in some other markets. Apparently, teams are already promising to move starters or prospects at 3B to make way for him. How much of that is hype/bluster and how much reality, I have no idea.

I still think you really need a curve or change to be really effective as a starter. Liriano, although he had a prior injury history in the Giants' organization...demonstrated what happens to pitchers who throw too many of those devastating sliders in the high 80's. The human elbow ligaments can't endure that for very long. That's why Santana is so effective...you mix the change with the fastball and you can get away with even a low 90's fastball...because of the speed differential being well above +10. If you throw everything hard, that's when you run into problems, unless you have exceptional pitches, like Liriano's 87-90 MPH slider in 2006 that was so devastating and short-lived.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 09:59 PM) I like Garza as well. I don't think he's worth one of our top offensive players and our top prospect. Beckham is our top prospect now. I would never dream of giving up Beckham and Dye (it could't happen anyways, because of Slayer's signing date). Poreda's a different story. If he's going to be a starter, and KW/Coop believes he can do it, then I don't even think about trading him now. If he's going to be another Thornton/Marte, then you aren't losing nearly as much. Look at it this way...could Thornton become a starter this spring? Well, in the past, that hasn't worked so well...his fastball would straighten out even more and he'd get hit around the second or third time around. Arguably, Thornton throws a tick or two harder than Poreda. I just don't know how teachable Poreda is...I mean, Cooper's had so much success with the likes of Contreras, Loaiza, Garland, Thornton, Marte, Danks, Floyd...can Poreda add pitches like the "cutter" or slider/change-up? I don't know. We're not privy to those "inside" conversations...conventional wisdom from the likes of Jim Callis is that he profiles more as a reliever, but Alexei Ramirez was thought to be a combination of Ramon Santiago/Omar Infante/Craig Grebeck and certainly not a poor man's A. Soriano.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 09:53 PM) I could see Pedro Martinez getting signed and having an impact some-what like El-Duque's from 05. Also, I doubt we'll see any of Garza, Sheilds, or Kazmir traded. And while Price is obviously untouchable, I don't see what everyone sees in him. Price seems to be just a more hyped Poreda. Similar FB, questionable breaking/secondary stuff. Even Dave Wills was honest, saying that he believed Price would really have to prove himself and that there were a lot of question marks about his arsenal holding up for 5-7 innings, as limited as it was. Sure, he has the fastball, but any big leaguer can crank Zumaya if he's sitting "dead red." Like Swisher, lol.

If KW thinks Poreda's the next Matt Thornton instead of Scott Kazmir, then he makes this deal in a heartbeat. He does lose the Type A compensation for Dye, though there's no guarantee holding onto Jermaine wouldn't result in him finally succumbing to an injury this season...it seems like it's due to happen. His health has been almost TOO good with us to last at his age and body/frame. It's not like we would giving up draft slots that would net us a Beckham or Borchard level of prospect (unless we suddenly go the Porcello free spending route, which is now being reigned in by the Tigers' ownership a bit). Garza's a competitor, and he's got a healthy ego. I think he would fit in fine...maybe he would even rub off on Javy, who might actually decide to compete with the shutouts that will be thrown by Danks, Floyd and Garza. I just really like getting Garza, not only from a financial/savings standpoint, but it's a logical move in the "pitching/defense wins championships" mentality. Then you move Quentin over to RF, and Swisher's your LF. And you hope that Swisher gets his head out of his arse and starts to produce like he's capable.

It's going to take a LOT to get Garza. While they value Kazmir and Price more, Kazmir might be a little more expendable, due to his increasing contract numbers. OTOH, he's a lefty with nasty stuff. But Garza is cheaper and has ALMOST the same stuff...he can be equally nasty, and he's still just learning how to pitch at the big league level instead of just "throwing" like when he came up with the Twinkies. It would have to be Dye and Poreda for Garza or Dye/Jenks for Garza and something really nice (not Crawford, of course...but a player KW has targeted...he knows who it is better than we do).

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 02:52 PM) errrrrr I love me some Danks but lets not crazy. Danks and Liriano have the same fastball now, 91-93, touching 94 MPH. Liriano's slider is down from 87-90 into the low 80's. He's afraid to really let it go...that "muscle memory" of the injury seems to be affecting him mentally. Liriano mowed down the lower-tier teams (he had a lot of favorable match-ups) but he lost a couple of really big games down the stretch...I think his reputation from 2006 helped him to a large extent, but the jury's out if he will ever have that devastating slider back again (and if he uncorks it, how long his elbow will hold together). Would you trade Danks for Liriano TODAY, straight up? I wouldn't, because Danks has a nice, repeatable/easy delivery and doesn't look like nearly the injury risk that The Franchise does going forward.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 12, 2008 -> 02:46 AM) Disagree with this as well. Fields wouldn't have even been available after '07 for Beltre. Fields was shopped for Miguel Cabrera. Huge difference in ability there. If the Sox sign Viciedo there is a chance Fields could be made available. There could very well be teams out there who salivated over Fields in '07 but found out he was unavailable for anything less than a superstar. Now that the cost is lower and he may be available, the chances of a deal actually increase, not decrease. I also don't buy the idea that Fields' injuries in '07 have weakened his status as a prospect so much that Poreda would have to be included in order to get a solid but unspectacular player in his walk year. Teams are thorough in the way they do business. If a team has scouts they respect that really like Fields and the GM agrees, then they do their research, talk to the player, have him take a physical, and then they get it done. That is not to say there are a ton of teams around that love Josh Fields, but I do think there are some teams that would love to have him and that would be willing to give up some pretty good talent to get him. 23 Major League home runs in 2/3 of a season is nothing to scoff at, even if it was a year ago. Also, Broadway, McCulloch, and Egbert have no business being mentioned anywhere near Fields. Broadway and McCulloch are trash our old regime dragged in and Egbert is a 4th/5th starter prospect. Neither have the type of physical talent that makes people think "future All-Star." I meant a trade of Josh Fields (version 2007) for Beltre 2008. But that's kind of pointless...it's NOT the situation, as you noted. I'm not sure the chances of a Fields trade necessarily increase though, because KW is less likely to give him up at diminished value (look at how he's held onto Anderson) and there are fewer teams desperate to make him their Opening Day 3B, making the talent packages we would be getting in return less attractive. There's two ways of looking at it. I'm not feeling great about Viciedo either...I think it's 50/50 at best, maybe even less, that he signs with the Sox.

Oops...meant Delmon. Brothers...that one gets me all the time. Well, let's use logic. The Twins would rather hold onto D. Young than Cuddyer, who's much more expensive. Young hasn't reached or come close to his ceiling, Cuddyer has. They already have Span, Gomez and Kubel...along with Young/Cuddyer...to play 3 positions and DH. So one is the odd man out. It really could be either Kubel/Cuddyer (Kubel would be worth a little more, because he's younger/cheaper) and Cuddyer is coming off a pretty serious injury. So Cuddyer and Perkins/Blackburn SHOULD get you Beltre. But do the M's bite on that deal? I don't think the M's give up Putz AND Beltre for that package. Although I guess stranger things have happened.

Maybe Fields, Allen/Shelby and Broadway/Russell...that could theoretically get it done. Still, I would rather have Dmitri Young and Perkins/Blackburn if I were the Mariners...not even close. You get a possible All-Star and a cheap/affordable starting pitcher. With our package, you get a potenial flameout in Fields, a marginal prospect that may or may not have a position and a big ??? that will have negligible impact on the pitching staff. Still, teams like the whole 3 for 1 idea...like those dumb Cub fans who come up with five random suspect names and think that equals Rafael Palmeiro. Perhaps they were amazed by BA's homers off King Felix and are enamored with acquiring him too.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 08:58 PM) And yet he's still going to hit for big time power (even more than he is now if he joins the Sox), enough contact, play everyday, be a positive influence in the clubhouse, play astounding defense at 3B, add to the team speed and net us two 1st round picks at season's end. Then there's the wild card of him going off and becoming the best player in the game again in the second contract year of his career, incredibly unlikely (.01% chance) but you never know, that ability is hiding inside him somewhere. Believe it our not you're not going to find 9 players who hit for good contact, walk 100 times, don't strikeout, hit for good power, play great defense, run the bases well and do it all for a league minimum contract. You find imperfect but very good baseball players that mesh well and play well as a team, Adrian Beltre is a perfect fit. I don't want stolen bases...just going from first to third on singles, 2nd to home on everything but line drives...1st to home on doubles. All of these things would be nice to see.

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 08:51 PM) His OBP is just frightening though. He had only 30 more walks than Juan Uribe in 200 more AB's. The thing is, we have plenty of guys like Thome, Quentin, Dye and Konerko (when healthy) with great OBP's. Even Swisher, theoretically. Beltre has been a clutch run producer with very little protection in that line-up (Richie Sexson?). The solid D is extremely important to KW...that's the main strike against Fields (along with contact at the plate) and the reason we saw Uribe (also Josh's health) down the stretch. There has to be a feeling of uncertainty about Ramirez at SS, so shoring up 3B after seeing the likes of Ventura and Crede for so long only makes sense.

The name Victorino is just cool...fits in with Chicago or Philly perfectly. Almost as cool as Lance Broadway, if he were a stud prospect coming up with the Yankees or Mets.

Yep, if you polled the clubhouse, it would be about 21-4 in favor of jettisoning Ichiro and keeping Beltre and/or Ibanez.

If you were the Mariners, who would YOU take, lol? Dmitri Young/Michael Cuddyer and Perkins/Blackburn for Beltre.... OR Drum roll please! Josh Fields and Lance Broadway/Russell/McCulloch? I don't think there's any question our neighbors to the north will be able to offer a more alluring package, if that's the route they go in. Dealing one of their starters is a huge risk though, because then they're in the Livan Hernandez/journeyman FA fifth starter's trap again. There's a 50/50 chance that the Twins will line up with Beltre and Orlando Cabrera as the left side of their IF (or Blake).

QUOTE (Cubano @ Nov 11, 2008 -> 01:35 PM) I heard or read than one before. President Carter and presidente Clinton tried to have normal relations but the cuban taliban always find a way to do something to prevent a good relationship. He dos not want a good relation because he coulod not blame anybody for his own crap. Now, he blames USA for everything. Actualy, this is a norm around the world. I said: Let the world kill each other and when somebody cry for help or do something USA do nothing. If USA does something we are bad. If USA does nothing, USA is bad. Hell with Europe, Middle East, Latin America, Asia and anybody inside or outside The Milky Way. Drill, Baby, Drill! Watch out for inflation down the road. We do not drill and at the same time we are pumping billions $$$$$$$ into the system. Obama 4 and out! I know I may catch hell from some of you Chicagoans and Sox fans, but that is OK. Must be a sense of disappointment in the Cuban community about the election...for many years, the conservative/Catholic Cuban vote helped secure the state for Republicans, at least in recent elections. Now the state has become a richer mixture of Hispanic cultures, and they voted in Obama in most states by 2 to 1 margins, eschewing their church's position (I say this as a Catholic, lol) and favoring the economic over the social/moral (fwiw, peace and social justice issues are perceived as more important to Democrats, it's just that the abortion issue is always paramount...but not in this election year). Even if they started drilling all over ANWR, it would take many months if not years to see results. That's just a stopgap solution to a long-term, endemic problem that needs to be addressed going forward. I think you will see any bailouts of the auto industry with lots of "green initiatives" imposed in terms of developing alternative energy/hybrid/battery-solar powered cars again. It's not WHETHER we do something, although even President Clinton admitted that abandoning Rwandans was his biggest mistake...it's HOW we go about doing it. We can be strong/forceful without doing it in a unilateral/militaristic fashion, and we can seek international cooperation and financial assistance without having our troops under UN Command. Friedman in the NY Times had a very good article about how all the countries in the world that were "free riders" under Bush (Japan, China, Germany, France, Russia, etc.) had to make a commitment to work with the US in the future, to share some of the costs and burdens... http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/09/opinion/...amp;oref=slogin Just interested in your take on that, Cubano. Don't want to get into a discussion better reserved for another page...but, in the new spirit of bi-partisanship, I'm hoping we can have a peaceful/thoughtful exchange of ideas, lol.

Not to mention that Safeco is one of the most pitcher-friendly parks in the game...that plays feels big when you go to a game there, like Old Comiskey did.