caulfield12

QUOTE (Fantl916 @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 06:34 PM) The best part about reading all of these posts are that people are looking in all the logical places for players who will be on our team next year. I keep reading Figgins, Brian Roberts, Beltre, Atkins, etc... I also keep reading that it'll be easy to trade for Figgins with Paulie, we can outdue the Cubs (and everyone else in MLB who wants a leadoff 2b) for Roberts, and the Mariners will give away Beltre, bla bla bla... First, the Angles do in fact have a decent alternative if they can't sign Texiera, and that's Kendry Morales. Some of you might laugh, but I would bet that the Angles brass would rather have have Morales bat .270 with 20 home runs and a cheap contract than Konerko and his .245 average with 25-30 home runs at $12 mil a year, especially since it would cost them Figgins... There will be a TON of teams after Roberts if he gets put on the trade block, and I would estimate it would take at a minimum Fields, Poreda, and someone like Shelby to beat what someone else might be willing to offer. Beltre will probably come the same as Roberts, as will Atkins. We might have the pieces for this, but I doubt Kenny goes that route unless he thinks he can sign Roberts to an extension. In my opinion, and I'm gonna be a little outside the box here, under the radar because that's how Kenny Williams operates, I think we won't end up with any of the big guns everyone's talking about. Rather I think you will see subtle moves that some will like and others won't, but moves that potentially have very high upside. Here is what I'm thinking... 1. I think we package a couple decent minor leaguers (let's say Ely and someone like Sisqo) for Rickie Weeks to fill our hole at 2b. Now i know what you're already thinking: "That injury prone, crappy average, crappy defense, hugely talented guy? No way, you're an idiot..." But this is precisely what the Quentin move was, a move for a once hugely heralded young talent that has hit some injuries and rough patches, and has played hurt, albeit Weeks has struggled a bit more than Quentin at this level. Maybe he needs a change in scenery and a chance to get healthy to fulfill his promise. You trade for him, let him get healthy, and once he is bat him 9th and start him. If nothing else he's a speedy power source at the bottom of the lineup, and Getz is always there as a backup in case it doesnt work out. Big upgrade over Uribe in the 9th spot, and if it works out ya move Beckham to 3rd, if not his replacement is in Chicago by 2010... 2. Sign an innings eater for the 5th starter spot to a 1 year deal, someone like Braden Looper, Paul Byrd, or Odalis Perez come to mind. Guys, we are not trading Javier Vasquez. Yea he might suck in big games but the guy is someone we can depend on to be effective enough over 200+ innings. As a 4th starter he's great. It would be nice to not have to force Clayton Richard into the 5th starter role, as he showed brilliant stuff in the playoffs out of the bullpen, and I think he would be UNREAL in the long relief/spot starter role, with an aim towards eventually grooming him for the rotation. Guys like Looper, Bryd, and Perez aren't always pretty, but they can keep your bullpen from getting taxed and often enough put you in position to win games. Also this move doesnt necessitate Contreres coming back to the rotation upon his return, which is a good thing. 3. I am of the frame of mind that we don't need to make a big splash on the trade market to get better. I actually think we can get better by addition through subtraction. Nobody is going to like this, but at this point I think trading Paulie for prospects will make us better. Before you criticize, hear me out. Paulie is our emotional leader offensively, but he's an aging 1b who bats .245 and hit 20-25 home runs with iffy defense, and those are easy to come by. You can convince some contending team looking for a 1b or a DH to take him I'm sure for a few prospects, and maybe the Angles will to spite having Morales. If Paulie were to accept a deal somewhere that leaves us with Swisher at 1b, who essentially should replicate Paulie's numbers with a little better defense and a bit more pop if given the playing time. I don't see us trading Dye either, he's Thome replacement as our DH after next year. 4. That leaves us with the leadoff question... who is that gonna be? I estimate that we let Crede go and start Josh Fields, with Getz playing super-sub at 2b and 3b. That would mean that our leadoff hitter is probably coming from center field... You could look at this a couple ways: we could go get a Jerry Hairston Jr type, trade for someone like Coco Crisp (horrible idea if we did, but would fit the CF with speed), or do what i know people think is a terrible move... just play Jerry Owens. Now look, I don't want to ever read that we should trade for Willy Tavaras, and somebody did post that and I puked all over my keyboard when i did... When Owens played in 2007 he struggled mightily at first, but got better and put up respectable numbers. In fact, his 2007 ratios in half a season where he sucked for most of it were better than Willy Tavaras's ratios from all of 2008. He can steal 50 bases, and he can do so batting .270, which is repsectable. Nobody in Tampa complains about Iwamura, and he really doesnt have great numbers. All you need is someone who can be disruptive. That's what Podsednik was in 2005, and that's certainly what Owens can be when he gets on base. Now i know his OBP will not be stellar, but he's still young, and if he gets regular PT maybe he can improve into a .270 avg, .340 OBP type that steals 50 bases, scores 100+ runs in this offense, and plays quality defense. I like the idea in this scenario of giving Jerry a chance to see what he can do, best case he's Tavaras or Pierre in their primes, worst case you go find an alternative at the deadline. So under my scenario we don't increase payroll, in fact we decrease it, and we get a whole lot younger, but I think we'll still be plenty competetive CF: Owens C: AJP LF: Quentin RF: Dye DH: Thome SS: Alexei 1b: Swisher 3b: Fields 2b: Weeks Bench: BA (OF), Getz (2b/3b), Hall ©, Wise (OF), Uribe (3b/SS) Staff: Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, Vasquez, Looper Pen: Richard (Longman, spot starter), Wasserman, Dotel, Linebrink, Thornton, Jenks Just my two cents trying to play the forecaster... 1) You're under the assumption that the Paulie who comes to ST is the same as the injured hand/oblique Konerko we had for the first four months of the season...he's already announced that he will really become dedicated to conditioning as his body caught up with him for the first time at 32. I expect a normal Konerko year, which is tons better than a "normal" Swisher year. It's not a negligible difference. I don't think you can just insert Swisher into the 3/4/5/6 spots in the batting order and assume Konerko numbers, certainly not close on the batting average. Again, this year was an anomaly for both players, but we know the specific reasons with Paulie. 2) Weeks is a definite possibility, if Milwaukee is ready to part ways with him....but so is Billy Hall, lol. Or JJ Hardy. I think it will take more than Sisco coming off major surgery to get him, though. 3) As far as Vazquez and the 5th starter situation, I agree this is most likely as a scenario. We won't go after Dempster, Sabathia, Burnett, etc. Nor should we, IMO. 4) I don't know how acquiring a veteran in CoCo Crisp with some pop and speed would be worse than playing Owens. Lest we forget, Jerry is not a very good defensive outfielder. We need to set the bar a little higher...the White Sox have tried for the last 3 years to avoid playing him in CF for a reason, and while he probably is better than Swisher and definitely better than Griffey, he doesn't have much of an arm either. That leaves us with, at best, an average LF in Quentin, an average to below average CF in Owens and an average to below average RF in Dye (because of his age and diminished range and the fact his arm and throwing mechanics aren't Retro 1996 variety these days). Speed players are always more fragile, and Owens seems that he's more susceptible (like Pods) to little nicks and bruises and pulls that completely nullify him as a threat. I'm not saying GET Taveras, he's only going to give you a .650 OPS, but that's misleading because of the automatic stolen bases giving him an extra 50 doubles per year. Count me in the corner of those who would prefer Taveras OVER Owens, but would like to see better options than either one if possible. I like Crisp, simply because he's already familiar with the AL (specifically the AL Central), and his power translates to a good combination of about 12-18 homers and 20-30 steals playing everyday.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 04:04 PM) A few things. *Richard is likely not a SP. He has a lot of value now as teams may gamble that he can be one. But if he fails as a SP, his value will drop off a lot. If the sox want to make some trades, they have to give up some decent players. I like Richard in the bullpen a lot. For that reason alone, he might be too valuable to trade. Yet he's not going to be the sox 5th starter and shouldn't be if the sox are trying to get back to the playoffs. *Beltre would be nice at 3b. But if the sox want a leadoff man [such as Roberts], most of their trade talent will go toward getting him. Same with Atkins and Kouzmanoff. Mora's bat would be nice. But his glove isn't there. If Crede's prognosis looks good, keep him around. *Duchsherer had a hip injury. If it was his arm, I'd be leery. The sox need another SP who could put Vazquez as the 5th starter. And then the sox would have Poreda as the next option in case someone goes down. *The sox need a speedy, good glove in CF. Esp. if Dye is in RF. While Taveras has holes, he'd fit the bill of speed at the bottom without sacraficing defense. The sox aren't going to find a CF who can steal bases, play solid defense and who can hit leadoff. Might as well get 2 of 3. But why would BB trade Duchscherer now, instead of waiting? #1, he's still on the DL, correct? Or no? Can he even be traded? He would have to clear a ton of physical exams from Sox doctors, and we've been on the other side of this situation with Mike Sirotka once before...it would be like KW trading Konerko, he could get a lot more coming off a normal, healthy, .285, 30+, 100+ RBI season than this one. Especially with the overvaluation of pitchers, he has no reason not to wait it out and rebuild his value.

There's too many question marks about Justin, Crede and Taveras to make those moves... Why are we trading away Clayton Richard, who actually showed something in the playoffs? Because he's a Sox pitching prospect and we simply believe that he will fail like every starter since Buehrle? I still don't trust taking an injured pitcher off the hands of BB...if he's healthy, he holds onto him for half the season while he re-establishes his league-leading ERA, if he's not 100% healthy or cleared by the doctors' exams, he's not going anywhere and Beane knows it. 1) Beltre 2) Casey Blake 3) Melvin Mora 4) Garrett Atkins 5) Kevin Kouzmanoff Any of those aforementioned would be better options than Crede/Uribe at 3B again in 2009 IMO. NOT TO MENTION THE MOST POPULAR CHOICE OF SOX FANS, CHONE FIGGINS!

If we trade Swisher and Dye (to get back the prospects enabling us to complete these deals), though, we're still short one outfielder. And we still have a huge problem in the back end of the rotation...not to mention if anyone from the rotation gets hurt. Then it's Broadway/Carrasco/H. Ramirez time. We have McLouth for CF and Quentin for LF or RF. I guess we could live with an Owens/Wise/Anderson platoon again, but I wouldn't like it a lot. Bringing in Hardy, Beltre and McLouth would be too much for me to believe. I will be surprised if we get more than one player of that caliber this off-season. Who knows, KW is always full of surprises.

So basically, a younger, cheaper, more reliable version of Dotel? I wouldn't mind losing Dotel's $6.5 million and putting it somewhere more productive, IF IF IF Milwaukee will bite. That's not a sure thing at all...especially with their sour experience with Gagne and realizing a castoff (the pitching equivalent of Carlos Pena) can get the job done more or less in Salomon Torres.

Cowley with essentially the same article...maybe more of a slam against OC, that's it. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...T-sox08.article

I'm not sure Egbert is so highly-valued outside of Sox message boards...maybe! Martinez is at least 3 years (or 2 1/2) away...I think the Mariners would be looking for AA impact players who could at least compete for starting jobs in 2009. It just depends upon their thinking. If you're their new GM, you'd have to think the fans would have only so much patience losing Ibanez (not getting anything back for him but draft picks) and then now trading Beltre. That doesn't leave them much left to market to the fans, just Ichiro, King Felix and Clement, who may or may not be a bust. I'm surprised that Bedard completely fell apart...and that they didn't move Putz at the deadline either. All things considered, the Twins can put together a better package...it all depends on how much the M's value Poreda as the centerpiece. The biggest weakness in all of these moves is the rotation. Relying on Freddy Garcia and Richard, and hoping Gavin doesn't fall back....that's a lot of IF'S there, when pitching has always been the most important predictor/determinant of Sox success over the last 9 years. I wouldn't be very comfortable at all unless I knew Garcia was throwing a sustainable 90-92 and not 86-89 MPH.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 01:13 AM) I actually would see Dotel going to Milwaukee in a deal. Short-term, good arm, good pitcher when he's on. Something like Vazquez, Dotel, Anderson for Hardy and Villanueva. Milwaukee would atleast have to consider it...they're adding about $15 mill in such a deal, but they have an absolute ton coming off the books. It would also free up money for the Sox to either take on a contract or splurge a bit in free agency. I'm actually not afraid of Hardy at all. He's just developed as a hitter is really all. It takes some guys a couple years. What's also really good to see with Hardy is that the past two seasons he's been an absolute stud in clutch situations. Most of his RISP, runners on, and high and medium leverage stats are good. He's actually a fantastic hitter in medium leverage spots. That's fine and dandy, but everyone always thinks the Rays will make Figgins available and I just don't necessarily understand why. I also think Roberts is going to be very expensive to trade for but I see the Sox in the race the whole time unless they strike a deal with someone of similar caliber before that. I'm also a bit scared of McLouth, though I do think he'd be fine; regardless, I don't think that has to be dealt with. It was stated on rotoworld a couple of days ago that the Pirates would only deal McLouth if someone wanted to overpay for him. What are "medium leverage" spots? Starting to sound like the whole derivatives/CDO "leverage" language that got us into this whole banking mess. Well, Villanueva would be another candidate for the 5th spot and long reliever role. I don't know much about him, he seems to have a good arm, but giving up more hits than IP scares me a little in the NL. I do like the idea of turning over the roster and getting younger. Swisher was the first step in that direction, he's 27. Ramirez just turned 27. Quentin's 26. Then we have Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, Jenks and Thornton (a young 32!). I don't worry about Thornton breaking down at all with that motion. Knock on wood. 27-30 is the prime for most players (not on steroids), so we're setting ourselves up well for an extended run if we can find four more high impact players like KW unearthed over the last 12-24 months in the offseason. Konerko is 32 and is finally admitting his body and time are catching up with him (Trib article tonight) and he has to be better conditioned physically/athletically during the offseason, instead of just concentrating on swing mechanics. That's a positive revelation from Paulie. I think we'll be fine with AJ for at least 2 more seasons as well. Thome is Thome...we'll have him for one more year I am sure. It really does point to a move with Dye, from a logic standpoint, although moving Konerko wouldn't surprise me either...well, just a bit.

QUOTE (beautox @ Oct 8, 2008 -> 12:41 AM) agreed the brewers have a limited window in the sense that their young core is going to price themselves out of their reach and then they will have to pick and choose whom they want to build around going forward(braun). Javy at 11.5 for two years could shore up their staff and take some preasure off their young arms an BP your going to get 200IP and 200K and moving to the NL could help a bit too. Escobar could be ready to start at the bigs going into '09 making it a shrewd move to trade JJ. The more i think about possibilites for this offseaon i would love for the sox to just get the following. McLouth, Beltre, Hardy and sign Freddy and roll with it. hopefully G-Beckham can slot into 3B going into '10 even if their is some growing pains at the ML level and then we've got a core to lock up and push for the central for the next 6+ years if KW is smart and locks them up like so many other young stars. I can see the following teams having interest in Dye: Dodgers, Reds, Yankees, Rays, Angels Wow...we're going to have to give up a ton of talent to get McLouth (Poreda + ?), Beltre (Fields and what else?) and Hardy (Vazquez + ???) Are you going to get these using prospects from the Angels acquired for Dye? Who would be the 4th and 5th starters then? I'm assuming you have Swisher and Quentin playing the corners?

I don't know why, but I keep thinking KW will sign Edgar Renteria when the Tigers let him go...just a hunch.

I don't think Cameron can be a full-time CFer in the AL anymore. He's okay/so-so in the NL (like Durham) but he would be exposed more...that said, I would prefer him to Anderson. The problem is that his offensive game is the worst of all parts of Crede/Uribe/Anderson/Fields,enough that I don't think I could tolerate watching it.

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Oct 7, 2008 -> 11:45 PM) Where did Williams even make a comment about Owens in that article? To me, it was implied...but maybe I'm totally off-base. Usually, the GM and writers get comments all the time (not for attribution or to be quoted officially) that give the writer a better insight into the thinking of the team, basically "off the record" but background information. Of course, that doesn't mean I think KW told Gonzalez or Phil Rogers they would trade Konerko...I just have the sense that he must have said something at some point (recently) to give the writer the idea that Owens was still part of the plan/puzzle in the "speed/game changer" equation.

Well, he didn't mention Fields, Logan, Broadway, MacDougal, Wasserman or Anderson...KW is very selective about who he praises in the media...and he always does it for a strategic purpose. Does that mean we're going to market Chris Getz as "David Eckstein/Adam Kennedy/Aaron Miles" and get another Juan Uribe in return? Well, why not? I just can't see how anyone would be excited about Jerry Owens playing CF. I think I would rather have Griffey, Mackowiak or Brian Daubach out there.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,1600685.story Discuss, :-). I don't mind Getz as the supersub/utility guy if we want to save money on Uribe's deal....but for Jerry Owens to be getting the majority of at-bats in CF against RH pitchers and for Chris to be the starting 2B, that doesn't seem like the surest way to get the fanbase excited for 2009. Of course, KW doesn't really care what the fans think, so it's his preorogative, but I can't imagine the other contending teams will be too fear-stricken. At least he didn't say Josh Fields would be the starting 3B on April 6th against KC and that Clayton Richard is his fifth starter. Well...these are the first hints about what's to come, but I don't believe it, any more than I am 100% sure Swisher will be back next season.

Tampa Bay doesn't need Dye playing in that dome, unless they want to make him the full-time DH. I really don't think Friedman would consider trading a "cost-assured" young pitcher for a one year rental on Dye...it would be nice, but I doubt it. If they do make that trade, I doubt it would be Garza or Jackson...it would be Sonnanstine, and I'm not sure how well his flyball-offspeed style of pitching would translate in a full season of US Cell. The Rays can always use Baldelli there, and Gomes perhaps will get his act together, like Cantu did after leaving Tampa. If the Red Sox just overpower TB, then the Rays might need to consider it...they also have Reid Brignac potentially ready for SS, that's the kind of player I wouldn't mind having on the White Sox (Bartlett), as long as we were getting some pop from 3B and CF in the trade-off. I also think the Rays would have the most interest in Jenks of any of our players...because Wheeler, Percival and Balfour are so-so. At least, I thought that about Balfour until this series...throwing 93-95 fastballs over and over again, and they don't seem to have much movement. I don't think Boston's better offensive players will miss those like our aging guys did.

The main benefit from Hardy is simply continuing the process of getting young and revitalizing the line-up. No, he's not the ideal 1/2 hitter, and the odds of finding that from 3B are minimal...so everything hinges on what we do with CF. Does Swisher or Ramirez hit at the top (probably 2 spot)...? I don't imagine we'll see Swisher at leadoff again, and Ramirez isn't a good fit either (for many reasons)...so the perfect leadoff man exists only in KW's and the Sox scouts' mysterious board.

I guess the question is whether that $5-6.5 million is "new/found" money or part of the $22 million applying to the final three years? Is this "handshake" agreement over the option year, if the Sox so chose to pick it up?

QUOTE (MO2005 @ Oct 7, 2008 -> 07:52 PM) O.K. I am going out on a limb with this one. I say sign Abreu, dump Thome's large contract, trade Vasquez for a bag of balls, sign Paul Byrd as a 4th starter, keep the bullpen the way it is, trade Vasquez and prospects to the Pirates for Freddie Sanchez or Jack Wilson. 2009 2B Freddie Sanchez CF Bobbie Abreu (this guy can hit anywhere) LF Carlos Quentin DH Jermaine Dye 1B Paul Konerko RF Nick Swisher SS Alexei Ramirez C A.J. Pierzynski 3B Josh Fields Please list the teams that want Thome in the AL, and to pay him $13 million? (I guess KW could donate some of the money we're still supposed to get from the Phils for 09) Why would the Pirates want to pay Javier Vazquez $11.5 million when they don't want to pay homegrown Jason Bay that amount of money? Paul Byrd, over the course of a full season, won't be as effective as Vazquez Josh Fields won't be a starter for the Sox IMO Since when is Swisher suddenly good enough to be our 6th place hitter?

He's replaceable if Brandon Wood is ready to play 3B, but that's not clear yet. And, going by McPherson and Kotchmann's struggles, Kendry Morales...etc., you can never be sure about Angels' position prospects. He's blocked (more or less) by Kendrick at 2B and there's still a glut of outfielders, even if they let G. Anderson go. I think Scioscia is smart enough to understand his importance to making their offensive engine go...Aybar's not really a speed player...and Willits rides the pine, so they risk becoming like the White Sox without Figgins in the line-up. I guess they could also stick Wood at 1B (or Morales) if TEX leaves via FA.

QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Oct 7, 2008 -> 07:30 PM) ah. no big deal. You never know. You could have been legit. Some people have an Anderson hardon. Agreed. Man, it makes me so sad to say the Crede wont be at 3B next year. he had so much potential. Coudl have been a stable here for the next 10 years. But, he just cant hold up. I'd be very happy with Atkins. Is he for sale or a FA? Trade...there was a lot of talk in the 2nd half about the Rockies, who they would keep and who they would shed. I always worry about NL players making the adjustment their first season in the far-superior AL...seems the numbers over there are too inflated to trust in terms of instant translation into AL numbers. The talent and pitching in the AL is just not comparable at this point in time, although I never thought I'd live to see the day where NL teams were averaging better offensive output than many AL teams without a DH. Just a symptom of bad pitching over there, mostly.

In fact, I would argue the opposite. Those comments for next year make me think Swisher will be gone for sure. KW is always, if nothing else, counter-intuitive to the majority of Sox fans in his thinking and methodology.

We better get a really good defensive 2B and hope that Alexei makes a solid transition to SS or we'll be in real trouble defensively with Figgins at 3B. Has anyone watched him this post-season? My concern is what if we do bring in Hudson/Roberts and Alexei has tons of trouble at SS? Do we then have to move Ramirez to 3B and start Rob Valido or Chris Getz. (I'm joking, a little.) By the way, I think Ramirez will be fine no matter where he ends up, he's just a "player" no matter what where you stick him. I think he could also catch and pitch better than Wasserman/MacDougal/Ramirez/Logan.

QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Oct 7, 2008 -> 07:08 PM) I agree on Richard Disagree on Anderson. He may be a better fielder, but as a hitter Juan is better and we need some contact hitters in this lineup. (PS: I dont want Juan on this team) If this were 2002, I'd take Castillo in a heartbeat. Heck, in 2002 I wanted us to go after him. He's on the back end of his career now. There is no way Uribe and Fields are better than Blake. He's no Crede from a few years back, but he's head and shoulder better than Uribe and Fields combined. I guess I need to start typing in Green Font too. I wasn't being serious...completely. Someone pointed out how my opening topic for the thread...that all those moves wouldn't improve our team. Now, I never said they were "great" moves, just the kind that Kenny normally likes to make, bringing in veterans 3-5 years past their date of expiration (like Chinese milk). For CF, I have Melky Cabrera, CoCo Crispy Bar and Corey Patterson as 5th OF it they trade BA. For 3B, Blake, then Beltre (I think think Beltre would be better, just too high a cost in talent to acquire), then Mora/Kouzmanoff/Atkins. For 2B, Roberts/Hudson/Figgins (who can also play 3rd, making him a bit more valuable and also covering some gaps when Juan Uribe is gone)

Maybe it would be better to put Dye at 1B and Swisher/Quentin on the corners...although, if that's the plan, Jermaine needs to start the adjustment ASAP. He can't wait until February 20th. Assuming a Konerko deal might actually happen. You know Moreno absolutely has to be P-O'ed in LA. The Angels win in 2002 with a much smaller payroll, and Moreno's invested millions into the club. However, they're the West/Left Coast Yankees now and the Dodgers are still playing on in a relaxed, care-free way that might lead them to the WS title. Just goes to show you, a team of stars doesn't always get it done...and a team like the Marlins in 2003, White Sox in 2005, Cardinals in 06, hopefully the Rays in 08, can take it to the big boys and make them look silly.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fieldi...mn=totalChances This is another interesting stat. The problem is, Johnny Peralta is something like 5th in total chances, but he's essentially a statue at SS and will be moved to 3rd, probably to begin next season...so Asdrubal Cabrera can play there and Barfield theoretically will stop playing like Richie Weeks. Jason Bartlett, who is a MUCH better SS than Cabrera at this point in their respective careers, is middle of the pack...because the Rays' pitching staff is so good and not dominated by ground ball/sinkerball pitchers. They have more K's, and there are so many balls hit on that turf that nobody can stop...those plays are usually made on a grass field like US Cell. Michael Young is a "meh" SS IMO, but he's second...largely because the Texas pitching staff is historically/traditionally so bad. Tejada is pretty horrible too. So definitely, there's no be-all, end-all defensive measurement that's easy to quantify. We all go off our "qualitative" observations. This reminds me of numerous arguments about Clayton's glove versus Valentin's arm and "bad glove." It can never measure Valentin's better range and how many outs he got that Clayton didn't with his arm...just like Uribe and Ramirez.