caulfield12

QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 09:55 PM) Where's Eric Gagne? First of all, we'll never know how much of his results with the Dodgers were legitimate. I'm skeptical or dubious. Second, losing a first round draft pick (not signing, although we didn't suffer losing AJ Hynch or Bobby Hill either) is much different than a 30th round pick. I think Cubs' fans should be more upset that they let Josh Hamilton go for virtually nothing to the Reds...compared to Sox fans being up in arms we didn't sign Eric Gagne.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 09:48 PM) Completely agree with that, as I've never been a fan of defensive range stats (I don't buy that OC is a good defender). Anyways, I don't think it's a surprise that the opposition has 3 triples so far that have been hit at Griffey Jr. Therein lies the problem with the White Sox. Look at the Twins' game the other day...not unlike Torii Hunter, Denard Span made a really good, athletic play on what would have been a game-changing (they would have given up their 3rd lead in 3 games) homer by Adrian Beltre. I swear, that balls goes out and Minnesota would be really hurting and be heading to KC 1 1/2 games back and searching for answers. And the guy had 4 RBI's as well in the game. It's just frustrating we have guys named Contreras and Vazquez and they don't even seem to be the equivalent of Slowey, Perkins, Baker or Blackburn. Well, Jose was VERY good for stretches this season before breaking down...but his last 6-7 starts before going on the DL were pretty abysmal, especially at Wrigley. At any rate, the Twins have Gomez, Span, Cuddyer, Kubel and D. Young. That has the looks of a VERY good outfield for years to come, barring major injuries. All of them are players in their prime or nearing their prime. Unfortunately, we only have Quentin who you could put in that same category.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 09:44 PM) There was a study done the other day that said the Sox would give up 28 more runs the rest of the way with Griffey Jr. in the outfield than if they had a league average defender. What was that same prediction for the difference between Mackowiak and Anderson in 2006? Pretty similar. Well, with the way Konerko has played 1B and has "Frank Thomasitis" with throwing to second on pick-offs, you have to think about 1/4th to 1/3rd of those runs would be saved by having Swisher playing first over Paulie.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 09:38 PM) I always liked Tom Gordon. How is Kip (The Worst Pitcher in Baseball) Wells doing in relief? Has he found a niche finally? He was on the DL for most of the year it looks like...27.1 IP, 29H, 19 BB, 22 K's, 1.76 WHIP, 5.27 ERA Pitching in Colorado is obviously pretty tough. Josh Fogg actually did a pretty decent job for the Rockies while he was there. I never thought he would start a World Series game in his career, that much is for sure. On, the bright side for him, he has somehow managed to earn $17 million dollars in salary from 2004-2008.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 09:23 PM) It's Detroit's season on the line, they had to come thru Hopefully we see a home series vs Boston as a way to push us to a higher tier Javier Vazquez is becoming a real drag on this team...he just can't seem to put up even a quality start. No matter what stuff he has, he just can't seem to really pitch well when the pressure's on and the White Sox are in a pennant race. It would be nice to see us move Vazquez and Conteras, but I'm not sure how easy that will be. Then again, it seems like there's no shortage of GM's out there willing to take a chance on Javier. For some reason, all the strikeouts and "plus pitches" are counted more highly in Roto Leagues and administrative offices than his W-L record and inability to win big games. For whatever you want to say about Freddy Garcia, he seemed to come through more often when it was needed than Javier does, at least comparing their Sox careers. Would have been nice to have had Dye out there...he had four homers in his career against Miner I think.

The funny thing is that it seems we've done a great job over the years, if nothing else, of producing relief pitchers...unfortunately, most of their success has not been with the White Sox. Frank Francisco Matt Guerrier Jon Rauch Chad Bradford Jesus Pena (just kidding!) David Riske or Tom Gordon Damaso Marte or Scott Schoeneweis Scott Eyre Keith Foulke Bob Howry Josh Fogg Kip Wells Matt Ginter Jason Grilli Bobby Seay (sort of, unsigned #1 pick) Luis Vizcaino Rocky Biddle Alan Embree Gary Majewski Mike MacDougal

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 08:52 PM) Geeking up for a 97 mph fastball, then adjusting to the 82mph straight change is impossible. You pick one of the pitches. And you look foolish on the other if its thrown. You pick the change, because he throws it a lot. Ramirez has the fastest hands on this team...it's not even close. He knows how to make adjustments from pitch to pitch better than most of our MLB veterans...which is pretty amazing, considering the lower level of competition in Cuba (more or less A ball).

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 08:51 PM) do they really have to use Wasserman here? didnt yesterday somewhat un-deplete us You suggest Dotel or Jenks?

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 08:48 PM) Why leave Russell in? With a 2 run game, this should be Logan vs Granderson Just going off the way he pitched in the 8th...and the fact that Logan has been pretty terrible recently. If Logan gives up yet another hit to a lefty, Ozzie would be getting dogged for that, too.

QUOTE (Wanne @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 08:42 PM) Please sit on the change...... How do you sit on a change when Rodney has been throwing 97-98 recently? He has a great change, but you you always have to look fastball first and then adjust...if you look for the change, then you're in real trouble. DARN!!! Thought that ball was going to get down the tie it up...Ramirez had the right approach. Just wish we hadn't left so many runners on earlier in the game when Griffey, Ramirez, Cabrera and Quentin had their opportunities to make it closer.

QUOTE (That funky motion @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 07:38 PM) Thank God!! I think Guillen would have had a coronary had Granderson picked some RBI's after that gift...obviously he went way too far...O'Noura or whatever his name is, GARBAGE.

QUOTE (That funky motion @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 07:35 PM) Javy pisses me off!!! Why treat the #9 hitter so gingerly and try to trick him with a telegraphed change-up when that will only make him a more dangerous hitter and speed up his bat? Even the Tigers' announcers noticed he was slowing down his motion.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Aug 7, 2008 -> 08:18 AM) It's ironic, but Young's stats really aren't that much better than Anderson's. Do you really think Anderson could come close to having 30 stolen bases or hitting more than 20 homers in a full season? While the second one is more plausible than the first, Anderson has become something like Rowand (although Rowand at least put up some pretty legit numbers)...given the job once, then sort of banished and now he has to earn it back, and I'm just not sure how that is even possible without moving Konerko or Swisher.

QUOTE (DBAH0 @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 02:07 PM) It probably gives some merit to Dayn Perry's piece, that the Sox were losers for trading for Griffey because they'll use him a lot in CF, and that's really going to hurt their overall defense for a marginal upgrade on offense depending on how he hits. Well, it will always be hard to measure intangibles...such as what Carl Everett added to the clubhouse in 2005. Would we have won without him? I'm not so sure. Griffey certainly brings a presence to the team. Then you have two players in Griffey and Thome with tremendous motivation to reach the World Series. Obviously, KW had reason to feel that the upgrade with Swisher over Konerko at 1B defensively, and with Griffey over Konerko (for the rest of this season) offensively was worth the small price in talent, not to mention the fact that in the "dog days" of the season, with the heat indexes rising, it's always nice to have insurance for possible injuries on the bench, because, God knows, it's not going to come from our minor league roster/s.

QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 10:22 PM) His FP lifetime is better then Brooks Crede's. Well, by that measure alone, Royce Clayton is a much better SS than Jose Valentin. This debate happened over and over again about five years ago...with many asserting that Valentin's range factor and arm made up for many of the mistakes he made...as Clayton's lack of range and so-so arm resulted in fewer errors, but many batters reaching base that ordinarily wouldn't have. For instance, there's no way in h-ll that Cabrera is the second best AL SS this year...or that Alexei Ramirez is one of the worst, based on errors/FP alone, it just doesn't tell more than one tiny part of the story. Same thing with Crede's first-step quickness...he gets to a lot of balls that other 3B wouldn't touch...and saves doubles and occasional triples as well by knocking down balls before they get down the line or into the outfield. These are the kind of stats that aren't easily measurable...like how many foul-outs and pop flies Ray Durham or Ramirez prevented from becoming singles or made into outs with their closing speed/range.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 04:51 PM) Griff was movable before but a trade was difficult due to his right to nix deals and also ownership wanting to nix deals. We almost had him in 2005 before the Reds ownership canceled the trade. About Contreras, it depends on the player coming back and the fit. If some other team has a RP they owe say $3M to and want to get rid of, maybe it's a guy the Sox feel like they could benefit from? Same thing with a bench player, if it's a fit then it's an option. If the Sox want to go in another direction and maybe sign someone off the FA market or make a trade for another pitcher, they would want to deal Jose just to clear a spot. In that case I could see them taking on a smaller salary with one year left just to get a better prospect in the deal even if they didn't really need that player coming back. The only thing I can't see the Sox doing is eating salary, but I don't think they'd have to. Someone would offer something and take the contract. Konerko and Contreras can be valuable assets, but they aren't going to bring in any really good prospects or anything. The Sox would have to sell low on both and would only do it if they want to go in another direction. Having 4 average or better SP and Nick Swisher under control for the next few years allows them to deal both players for the sake of opening a spot, not maximizing value. I think either Konerko or Contreras could get us something that could help in one way or another. Maybe we could get a RP prospect with some value, a #4/#5 starter prospect to use as trade bait, or maybe another project or two like Floyd and Thornton were. Most teams are going to be looking for starting pitching, so Contreras should be pretty easy to trade because it's very low risk, only money and a player or two not in anyone's longterm plans. For Konerko, the idea is getting him to waive his NTC (which might not happen at all) but in the event Texeira doesn't re-sign with the Angels, they are a possibility (don't know how they feel about Kendry Morales). If he just wants to stay on the West coast and would waive his NTC for a team not in contention, the A's could be an option, also the Giants, Texas isn't on the West coast but it's a great hitting environment he might consider if Bradley isn't brought back, plus the Mariners will need a 1B and a DH. My whole point is that they're not impossible to move and they could bring us something that might help us in the future, even if it's not any big-name players or prospects. Edit: I didn't make any contradiction in the previous post. There's a difference between no value (Jeff Weaver, Jose Vidro, Gary Matthews, Jr.) and some value (players worth under-appreciated prospects or projects with pretty high upside and role players that can help a Major League team in spots). The Angels remain the best possibility, if Texeira leaves. Giants...they're in a rebuilding phase, and signing one player like Konerko at his salary for two seasons won't put them over the top. In fact, one of the main reasons they're in the mess they are in is/was keeping so many veterans/aging players on their roster one or two years too long (players like Dave Roberts, Randy Winn, Durham, Aurilia, Zito), many with longer-term deals. Mariners...maybe, but I think they would be a little gun-shy after the Sexson and Beltre misfires, along with spending so much money on pitchers like Washburn, Weaver and Batista with little to no return. They're kind of caught in the middle. What to do with players like Ichiro and Ibanez and JJ Putz, maybe even Jose Lopez...obviously, they're hoping to build around King Felix and Clement. Rangers....first have to decide whether they will keep Blalock and whether or not Chris Davis is their 1B of the future or not. A's...kind of goes 100% against the BB style, which is trading for or signing hitters like Thomas, Piazza, Bradley, Dye, Hatteberg, etc., that are undervalued. That kind of contract just doesn't seem to fit into the A's plans, especially with all the health concerns surrounding their "franchise" player, Eric Chavez.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 02:33 PM) I would not trade a middle of the rotation starter for a "talented" player that may or may not reach his peak, but in any case is hitting in the .220s with a OBP barely at .300 with > 1000 MLB plate appearances. If he was a rookie that's one thing, but in his second year with no improvement, not so much. Well, that would be an interesting poll I think, how many would take back Chris Young for Vazquez, even up, this off-season? Vazquez can still get back in good graces, but I think a lot of White Sox fans would take Young back and roll the dice...while this would open up a hole in the rotation, Young's contract over this part of his career is pretty manageable, although they might end up regret the length of it if he continues to play like he has in 2008, similar to the Indians and Peralta.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 02:27 PM) It is very disturbing to me that we have so few home grown players on our roster. Plus we seem to always have plans to trade the few we have for someone else's. I guess on the other hand it worked with Danks and Floyd so I feel very strongly both ways about this issue That's why it is always so painful going through partings with homegrown players such as Ventura, Thomas, McDowell (always a testy relationship), Crede, Rowand, Durham, Mike Cameron, Wilson Alvarez, Alex Fernandez....I'm glad we stuck with Buehrle, despite occasional misgivings, like his last couple of starts. I wasn't heartbroken about Garland's departure. Maybe because I'm not a teenage girl!! I guess the only blessing is that players like Ramirez, Quentin, Floyd and Danks pretty much feel like rookies, but, at the same time, it would have been nice to see someone like Brandon McCarthy become a 2/3 starter for the Sox. And Swisher seems like he will become a fan favorite, too. Konerko pretty much has been with the Sox for the majority of his major league career. I do wish that Ordonez and C-Lee left the Sox under better circumstances, especially Magglio.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 09:36 AM) Um, he solidifies #5 if he's better than Contreras, or he works out of the bullpen and upgrades us there. A good arm is a good arm, and when throwing in the upper 80s, Freddy has a good arm. I would never say, "let's add Freddy and move Vazquez", I for one haven't given up on the most talented arm in our rotation. Freddy would supply SP insurance and another option to run out there if Contreras indeed is unhealthy or even to give our other starters a break. Just don't think the White Sox are ready to move into that stratosphere of $150 million plus payrolls where such a move is possible or justifiable...not with the attendance only being average over the last year and one-half. It would be another thing if we were selling out every game like 2006, although the crowds have been better in the mid to late summer, as is always the case in Chicago with US Cell.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 08:16 AM) Really? Good. I hate to revisit this yet again but I think I have to. You mean Vazquez isn't even worth Juan Uribe in return? Because Young's stats, with his absurdly low OBP, look a lot like Uribe's. Yes, he profiles closer to Mike Cameron (strikeouts, power numbers and defensively, minus the arm) than Soriano/Bonds, but I don't think any GM in baseball would consider him anywhere to be in the same league talent-wise as Uribe...which is why Jose Guillen keeps getting huge contracts over and over again, despite his many character issues...or why players like Josh Hamilton and Milton Bradley inevitably find homes. Would KW trade Quentin to get Chris Young straight up today? Of course not, but he'd think about it, because CF is a more important position to fill than LF, it always has been, or the White Sox and about 20 other MLB teams would have an easier time finding starters who can play the position (arm/range) and also put up 20 homers per season while hitting at least .270 with 15-20 stolen bases.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 11:03 AM) I didn't know those legs ever closed. She did take a vow of "celibacy" when she was contemplating her African sojourn...not sure how long that lasted. She's also managed to launch Nicole Richie's and Kim Kardashian's non-careers....isn't KK supposed to marry Reggie Bush?

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 12:26 PM) I've wanted Juan Cruz for a while. I don't think KW touches Perez, Lopez, or Vidro with a 20-ft poll. I expect him to be active on the trade market, and I expect him to look into Chone Figgins and Brian Roberts. Some possible FA after 2009 we might go after to fill in at 3B: Adrian Beltre, Chad Tracy, Akinori Iwamura? (played 3B in Japan I believe) Someone mentioned Pedro Feliz, and I wouldn't mind him. I guess he's pretty much Joe Crede with a little less power and batting average. If he's cheap enough and we deal Josh Fields I wouldn't have a problem with it. The main question though is where the Sox see Beckham playing. If Alexei takes SS in 2009, then with Richar traded we'd probably be looking at Getz at 2B if we don't pick anyone else up. Fields would move to 3B in that scenario where we don't make a major move, but either guy may end up being replaceable with Beckham (in Fields' case, maybe a move to another position would make more sense than a trade if he shows offense in the Majors again). And of course there's always the chance KW makes a run at Rafael Furcal to play SS, keeping Alexei at 2B. My preferred offseason: -Let Crede walk and offer arb for draft picks (-5M) Let OC walk and offer arb for draft picks (-9M) -Trade Contreras for prospects (-10M) -Trade Paulie for prospects (-12M) -Buyout Thome if his option doesn't vest, then pick up Griffey's option (wash because of money from Reds?) -Re-sign Uribe as a UT man ($4M?) -Sign Raul Ibanez for 2 years as a DH (+10M?) -Sign Orlando Hudson as a 2B (+12M?) -Sign Juan Cruz (+4M?) -Sign Brad Penny (+12M?) -Trade for Chone Figgins to play 3B (arb eligible I think) Lineup vs. RHP: S Figgins 3B S Hudson 2B R Quentin LF L Griffey 1B R Dye RF L Ibanez DH S Swisher CF L Pierzynski C R Ramirez SS Lineup vs. LHP: S Figgins 3B S Hudson 2B R Quentin LF L Ibanez DH R Dye RF S Swisher 1B L Pierzynski C R Anderson CF R Ramirez SS Rotation: Buehrle-Floyd-Danks-Penny-Vazquez Bullpen: Jenks (9th), Linebrink/Thornton/Dotel (7th-8th), Logan/Cruz (6th-7th), Wassermann LR Bench: Hall C, Anderson OF, Uribe UT, Bourgeois/Getz UT I like the idea of having 2 huge lefty sticks in the lineup against righties, and I like the idea of getting rid of Thome who is the worst situational hitter on this entire team. No hate for the guy, but I'm sick of seeing him K on bad pitches with a runner on 3B in a big situation like he did last night. We didn't need that huge HR from Swish to tie and later win that game, we just needed some solid baseball from Thome, and we didn't get it once again. Ibanez is the type of hitter that comes through in those situations, and there's more than enough power to absorb Thome's loss. Assuming Konerko and Contreras look so-so down the stretch....well I think it's going to be difficult to get rid of either player, B-Level prospects or not. There are way too many concerns about Konerko's weight, general body language, bat speed, "degenerative hip condition," etc., for any team to take a risk on him for an extended period of time without a rigorous set of physical examinations...especially with lingering concerns around the league after Sirotka and Garcia so quickly became "dead weight" to the Blue Jays and Phillies. Maybe it was just lucky timing by KW, just like BB was "lucky" to pick the right time to get rid of Hudson, Mulder and Zito...but I think many teams would be scared to touch either one of these two guys unless they really show something the final 50 games that they haven't the last 50 or so. I don't see Fields playing at 2B (I guess anything is possible, but it seems more possible for someone like J. Valentin in his 30's than Fields)...he's either a DH LF, 3B or trade bait. I think Beckham will have to be at 2B or 3B, ideally at 2B from everything I've read...we'll see how Getz (Aaron Miles clone with a bit more speed and versatility, maybe not quite the hitter) does at 2B.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 01:59 PM) For about the 4th time in the last 30 minutes from the chorus of 3 posters who have said this, this doesn't match with what you originally said. You didn't specify CFs who would be considered everyday starters. That is totally different from not having anybody who can play CF at all. Anything else that is said beyond that is gibberish as it would only be in response to something that was never said. No "REALISTIC" options...sure, Owens and Anderson and Wise all MIGHT be better than Swisher or Griffey (you can argue their relative merits, with Anderson being overrated by some still), but none of them are going to play 4-6 times per week in CF in August and September for a contending White Sox team, barring a major injury.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 09:34 AM) You want Uribe's bat in the lineup all of next season? I sure as hell don't. He'd be a good Plan B if the Sox can't come to terms with a better player. He'd have value as a utility infielder/defensive sub as well. But I think that the Sox can do better than Uribe. I can't imagine Garciaparra, Pedro Feliz or Hank Blalock...although KW is the kind of GM that would take a shot in the dark at Nomar or Blalock and hope to strike magic for one year. Some other players we might take a look at: Jose Vidro Felipe Lopez Rocco Baldelli Oliver Perez Rafael Soriano (injury history like Rich Harden) Juan Cruz Brandon Lyon

QUOTE (YASNY @ Aug 6, 2008 -> 09:17 AM) Couldn't agree more. Games threads are generally no longer enjoyable. It certainly wasn't much fun in late 06 and early 2007 when the optimists and pessimists/realists crashed and clashed over the White Sox over and over again...the White Sox were so good for a season and a half, you wondered if it was a fluke, if what happened was actually reality. We went 99-63, 11-1 and then 26 games over .500 at the All-Star break after an improbable comeback against Papelbon...then it all started to go south, including Jenks and the pitching, so it was beginning to feel like 2003 and 2006 all over again to me. As bad as the two Twins' "4-0 lead" losses were, just as improbable were the two Tigers' comeback wins on Friday and last night. Detroit is now 7.5 games back, and I just don't know what to make of this team. Since the Tigers swept us in DET after we swept the Twins, they've only gained 1/2 game. These Sox definitely have the never say die attitude, but it's not like we've had a huge amount of amazing comebacks or 1-2 run wins...like the 2001-2004 teams, as well as 06 (I think we must have beaten every closer that first half) and 07, we have too many blowouts both ways, but lots of inconsistency. In 06 and 07, the refrain was injuries and that everyone was simply getting old at the same time (Contreras, Konerko, Dye, Thome, AJ, to name a few), that our young prospects simply weren't that good (Fields/Anderson, not to mention the infamous Andy Gonzalez and Richar, too) and our bullpen was bordering on atrocious. I'm looking forward to seeing how well we compete with BOS, NYY and TB over the next stretch...it will be interesting.