caulfield12

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ May 9, 2007 -> 08:14 AM) How anyone can blame this loss (primarily) on anyone other than MMac is beyond me. I'm sure some will blame Iguchi (from both sides of the field, offensively and defensively)... And Aardsma looked really shaky out there as well. Not sure that he's closer material. I know MacDougal isn't, not for the White Sox. It's just like Kip Wells in 2002 and 2003. He wouldn't have put up those same stats with the White Sox...MacDougal might have saved 21/24, but it was Doug Jones/Joe Borowski-esque. Always a high-wire act on the precipice of disaster, and many of those saves were 2-3 run leads where he would give up a run or two but still get the save.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ May 9, 2007 -> 01:28 AM) What if he hits a homer? God I love Ozzie's logic. No, it's your fault for not f***ing walking Morneau. Iguchi and Crede didn't exactly help either. QUOTE(briguy27 @ May 9, 2007 -> 07:32 AM) going after joe girardi...brilliant It's amazing how fanbases always want the opposite of what they have... Jerry Manuel, asleep at the wheel, no emotions, Gandhi, passive. Ozzie...crazy, bad "game manager," too emotional, his methods will be tuned out by players, will have a run--in with the media and get fired Giradi...too boring, too many cliches, micro-manager, wants to control every aspect of the organization, huge ego KW will never hire Girardi, they couldn't co-exist. He's not a part of the "White Sox family" either. from chicagosports.com (so much for firing Walker!) "People want a reaction to a lack of performance in a certain area," Williams said. "But I'm not interested in that. We're interested in a stable franchise that allows us to compete on a yearly basis and to do that, you better keep your people around. That's the long answer. "The short answer is, I haven't even thought about it."

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2007 -> 07:34 AM) He could have very well believed that with Garcia struggling to hit the 85 mph mark, that we would be better with Gavin Floyd in the rotation. If you want to discount the McCarthy trade completely, you could also say Kenny thought we would be a better team with McCarthy in the rotation over Garcia. How is either one of those a lie? Its a subjective opinion that you don't agree with. Some are convinced we would have won with Rowand instead of Thome last year (HA, HA!!!) or that we should kept Thomas over Thome... And you'll never convince anyone otherwise, we're already set in our opinions...BA/Ozzie, BA/Erstad, Ozzie as a manager. It doesn't matter what the argument. Last year, it was "Dark Clouds" who felt the season was getting away in July and August and those who could never be convinced that 2006 was a different year. It reminds me of all those faithful who believed the tech stocks would return to their previous values, versus the people who took their losses but reallocated their money into investments that have done much better since 00-02 because they knew when to cut their losses. Ultimately, KW has to have a feel for this...7 1/2 to 9 games out in the first or second week of June and behind 3 teams, we have to be in a selling mode.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 9, 2007 -> 07:24 AM) Danks has nothing to do with the Garcia trade. The real issue here is that KW didn't do much of anything with the savings from Garcia deal...we just stayed status quo, and paid for the raises and salary increases in our payroll. Realistically, we need to shed the salaries of Mack and Cintron and open up those spots for younger players. Heck, I would rather they take that $5 million and buy off the Twins' Director of Scouting and half of his staff...than overpaying two bench players, one of who is potentially blocking Sweeney's progress. If he doesn't play and you go with Sweeney, you're wasting valuable payroll money that could be better allocated on a legitimate everyday starter, not a utility player.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2007 -> 07:17 AM) Yeah, now these were the over-reaction type threads I had been missing! And how is our franchise better off because KW waited one year too long to do something? He has been too patient, and it's going to set back our being a competitive team again by 1-2 years because he was too wishy-washy and didn't commit enough to winning last year, when it was our best shot to get it done and we still had a reservoir of good will with our fanbase. Now he'll be preaching patience again, and he'll end up losing 25-33% of the season ticket base as a result...not quite as dramatic as Cleveland's fall in 2002-2003, as they had been selling out nearly every game. We'll be back to the "real" White Sox fans and lose the bandwagon, but we'll be back in the $75-90 million payroll range in all likelihood, which is fine if you're the Twins or A's...and worked ONCE for the White Sox, 2005. But almost EVERYTHING has to go right in that situation, every acquisition, no injuries, no FA busts.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2007 -> 07:02 AM) Danks is starting instead of Garcia, and to me so far at least, it is looking like the Sox are better for it. KW believed "in his heart" we were just as competitive (if not moreso) with Floyd as the 5th starter over McCarthy, before the deal for Brandon went down with all the Garland rumors swirling. I really think that things could be a lot worse...we could extended Dye, Iguchi and Crede (instead of Buehrle). We could have gone out and spent a ton of money on either Pierre or Roberts and let Pods go, in which case, we'd be blocking Sweeney and we'd be selling off those guys in June/July, since they wouldn't be part of any long-term plan, maybe Pierre...but the days of a consistent 50 stolen bases won't last for much longer as he enters his 30's. QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2007 -> 07:02 AM) Danks is starting instead of Garcia, and to me so far at least, it is looking like the Sox are better for it. KW believed "in his heart" we were just as competitive (if not moreso) with Floyd as the 5th starter over McCarthy, before the deal for Brandon went down with all the Garland rumors swirling. I really think that things could be a lot worse...we could extended Dye, Iguchi and Crede (instead of Buehrle). We could have gone out and spent a ton of money on either Pierre or Roberts and let Pods go, in which case, we'd be blocking Sweeney and we'd be selling off those guys in June/July, since they wouldn't be part of any long-term plan, maybe Pierre...but the days of a consistent 50 stolen bases won't last for much longer as he enters his 30's.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ May 9, 2007 -> 01:24 AM) Baker's done with the Twinkies. Has the same relationship with Gardenhire that B-Mac had with Ozzie. And things will get worse for Minnesota when Santana leaves. It's not a given that Liriano is going to be the same when he comes back from his surgery as well. Yes, but a young/affordable pitcher who throws 95/96 is worth a heckuva lot more in this market than a 25 year old outfielder whose career average is in the low 200's. They held onto JD Durbin too long, as well as Michael Restovich...they'll get a better return this time around. I'm sure the Yankees would take him, he pitched well against them last year in New York.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ May 9, 2007 -> 12:26 AM) And WTF? There's a problem apparently with a .553 winning percentage, which is what the Sox put up in 2005. It's not quite .663, but jesus that apparently sucks now a days. They didn't have a shot in 2004, and if they DIDN'T play .600 ball in the second half of 2003, they would have won 75 games. In 2002, their second half brought them to a .500 record. The only thing you can even contest at this point is that the Sox are a lousy second half team under Ozzie Guillen, because under Manuel they finished above .500 in the second half every year this decade (and I didn't bother to look in the 90s, but I assume it wasn't bad), and even that is a pretty small sample size. 2004, I'll give you the injuries to Magglio and Thomas. 2003, yes, they played well in the second half...but they finished losing 10 of 18 and 5 of those 6 losses were to the Twins (1-5 in the games that counted). We did go from 45-49 at the break to 12 games over, but we choked. 2002, they traded half of their veterans...but the only time they played well, it was in the first six weeks of the season when Lofton was really hot. I think they were 22-14 in May and then they treaded water for the rest of the season. 2000, we only played 5 games over .500 in the 2nd half, after starting out 55-32. 2005, we were only 8 games over .500 after going out 57-29.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ May 9, 2007 -> 12:20 AM) Dude, look at the f***ing numbers and data from year's past; the Twins had to pass three too. They were 12-18 at game 30, behind Cleveland, who was 16-14, and Chicago and Detroit, who I didn't even bother to look up because the Sox had 17 wins in April and the Tigers were good too. And if you try and tell me that Minnesota this year and Cleveland last year aren't comparable teams, I'll call you crazy as hell. Nathan hasn't looked like 04-06 Nathan really at all, the rest of the bullpen has been pretty hittable, and aside from Santana, they don't have one starter who's better than league average, and three of them should have ERAs around 5.00 at the end of the year (if they were to remain in the rotation the rest of the year, which just simply is not possible). The problem is the lack of talent on the White Sox roster, and how injury prone Thome, who is probably the most valuable player to his team than anyone else in the AL, really appears to be at this point. Add to the fact that there is no depth to the bench, this team still won't be able to hit LHP, and Ozzie Guillen is one of the worst game managers in the league (I've never seen as many lineups this year that don't make sense as I have ever, and he still can't manage a bullpen), and the Sox just have little to no chance. I would say yes, except the Twins have owned us every year from 2001-2007, with the lone exception of 2005. Especially in their house...we don't have to face Santana and we still very easily will be swept out of there. And Minnesota always has a way of winning the big games in August and September. So the way I look at Minnesota is as a team that's so fundamentally solid, they're not going to pull a midsummer fade like the Indians. They have four starting pitchers in the minors who will end up shuting out the White Sox in Garza, Baker, Slowey and Perkins. Hunter's in a salary drive, and Cuddyer, Morneau and Mauer are always dangerous in the middle of that line-up. And they have the best bullpen in the league again. They're going to win 85-88 games and finish ahead of the Sox. Cleveland was pythagorean 89-73, but they ended up at 78-84 due to their abysmal pen.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ May 9, 2007 -> 12:02 AM) If this team is 10+ games out next month, I wouldn't be too upset with a fire sale, but I hope KW actually gets some real quality in return. It's sort of intriguing as well. KW needs to look at Oakland and Milwaukee. Rebuild how they did. Oakland rebuilt with getting a very good pitcher in Haren in return for Mulder. Some of their moves, like signing Loaiza and overpaying, weren't so smart. They really could use Bonderman about right now. Blanton is serviceable but not more than a 4/5. Kennedy and Gaudin are castoffs from other organizations. The only way they can do any damage is for Harden and Haren to be healthy all season...but BB doesn't believe that will happen, so he's trying to get the highest possible return for Harden, but I don't think anyone will be dumb enough to bite. They haven't really replaced the firepower of Giambi, Tejada, Damon, Dye and Hernandez...they're a team that heavily relies on starting pitching, clutch hitting, OBP and the back of their bullpen. Buck looks like he MIGHT be a decent player, but Crosby really struggled with injuries and the sophomore jinx, and Chavez fell off as well. Bradley was a high-risk/high-reward move that KW would have prided himself in, but they have too many complementary players on offense like Kotsay, Ellis, Johnson, Kendall, etc. Just not enough firepower without Piazza's bat in the middle of the order. If you want to look a model organizations, you need to look at Florida, Minnesota, Milwaukee and the Angels.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ May 9, 2007 -> 12:04 AM) The Gospel According to Dusty. Thanks for that. Probably the dumbest thing I've read here in quite a while. From 2000-2006, why have we only played better in the 2nd half of the season once? I want to hear YOUR explanation. We're just chokers 86% of the time? That seems like a trend to me. Maybe it's global warming.

QUOTE(Mr. Showtime @ May 8, 2007 -> 11:01 PM) Excellent, I have work tomorrow night so I won't be around to demand a trade or firing. No firings this year. Bring in a new hitting instructor for 2008. That's it. I'm fine with Ozzie. We're just not good...if OG was a great manager, we'd win 86-90 games with this team, but it still wouldn't be enough to make the playoffs, and we'd be a year older and a great manager would be doing incredibly well to get to .500 without Buehrle, Crede, Dye and Iguchi, and probably Uribe too. QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ May 8, 2007 -> 11:03 PM) Personally, I hold June 11th as the deciding date to officially declare players for sale. Little more than a month from now. If we're seven or more games out, it may be time for Williams to make a difficult decision -- either have false belief, or restock for 2008 and beyond. I just hope Williams realizes for any player traded, this organization's future relies upon the return package. Fans shouldn't be expecting only a 'B' and 'C' level prospect for Buehrle. I don't even care if people make excuses of "oh well, no one wants a rent-a-player" or "who trades (player) for (return value)." It's what needs to be done to ensure this team competes in the future. And no, I don't expect a Top 10 prospect; but neither do I expect the type of players Williams acquires from scrap heaps. You know, the pitchers or positional players who have had several good seasons in the past and are currently mediocore. Or those players who, because of injury or ineffectiveness, haven't fulfilled their promise. No Gavin Floyd projects. No one who I have to hear ," Coop will fix him." If the Tigers gave up the now injured Humberto Sanchez, who was one of their 3 best pitching prospects, along with a couple of others, to get a 38 Sheffield....we should be able to get something comparable for Dye, especially if KW predicates the deal on that team working out an extension as a condition of the trade. We wouldn't have traded for Garcia had we not known we were going to be able to keep him for 3 more years.

QUOTE(Mr. Showtime @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:57 PM) Do you want to start the next one or should I? Last year in the second half is when KW should have "sold out" to go for broke and try to hold off the Twins, when the Red Sox and Indians were down... It's too late now. The only weak spot with Detroit was Maroth and Sheffield's slow start, but they're covering up nicely, even Durbin has done well enough and they have Andrew Miller. Heck, Jason Grilli is replacing Rodney adequately right now. There's a reason we're last in the AL in runs for a stretch of 115 games. We're not very good...and we're getting older and older, you're starting to see signs of why KW was so hesitant with Dye and Iguchi. The only really bad contract I think we'll end up with is for Contreras, through 09, unless Konerko never wakes up and returns to 2002/03 stupor form.

QUOTE(SoxAce @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:52 PM) That's another organization. Maybe Houston should have quit two years ago when their record was horrid the first couple of months. It's a different ballgame for different organizations. Houston also developed quite a history of that, doing it at least twice and coming VERY close last year as well. The heat in Chicago takes a lot of out us in August and the first half of September. We've traditionally been a lousy second half team, holding on and treading water in 2000 and 2005 and fading in 2003, 2002 and 2006. 2001 is the only year we played better the last four months (without Wells, David and Thomas), and that year, the struggle was to get from 14-29 back to the .500 mark, which we did accomplish. Minnesota and Houston play in climate-controlled parks.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:48 PM) Did Jerry Owens do something I didn't see? Heck, even Escobar has had more success in the majors than Owens has. Well, considering he only spent $25,000 or $50,000 on Escobar, it was a very good move...I guess it seemed better in 2004 or 05 than it seems today, because of his age and some of his struggles as well as his defensive and arm strength limitations.

QUOTE(SoxAce @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:45 PM) I know this lost was tough, but this thread is ridiculous. Two days? Please. I'll agree with Showtime in saying that if we play s***ty these next couple weeks, then I can see this organization thinking differently next month even though I would give it a month and a half/ two months tops. The Twins were very close to trading Hunter and sending Morneau to the minors in early June last year...and they finally turned the corner, around the 7th-10th of June. That's exactly one month from now. We don't have the luxury of bringing in Liriano from the pen, discovering an MVP, Rookie of the Year, Cy Young Winner and Rolaids Relief Man all on one team....we'd be lucky to have ONE of those happen. Where it becomes a mathematical difficulty is one month from now and 7.5-9 games out. We could be closing in on that territory after this weekend.

QUOTE(chisoxt @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:41 PM) Yea, I was thinking the same thing.... Kenny has never been good at fleecing other teams for prospects. Usually, he's the one in the giving mood. Great at identifying undervalued major league players....horrible at finding AA and AAA talent, with the one exception being the slight chance he took on Bobby Jenks and picking up Jerry Owens from the Nationals for Alex Escobar. If you look at 2002, you remember names like Barry/Berry, Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins, Onan Masaoka, Gary Majewski, the immortal Byeon Hak-An and Frank Francisco. The two "stars" were Diaz and Adkins, and they disappointed mightily. Francisco and Majewski would have been nice bullpen pieces had we kept them. In fact, we might have won in 2003 if Francisco was the closer for the entire season, instead of Koch. But he wasn't quite ready then, nor had he thrown any chairs or suffered a major injury.

QUOTE(fathom @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:37 PM) No way....we're still counting on Thome and Hall to help this team. If we had to go into firesale mode less than 2 months into the season with a 100 million dollar payroll, then everyone in the organization should be fired. We wouldn't have to do it in any division except the one we're in right now...our team is in the wrong place at the wrong time. And KW is going to have to be decisive, not wishy-washy, like he has been since the World Series championship.

QUOTE(Mr. Showtime @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:36 PM) I don't see it starting within the organization for at least another month. If we get swept by the Twins, who we're fighting with for third place, it has to cross the minds of every single White Sox fan. We've seen it all before, the last time in 2002. It's not only losing, it's how we're losing. Even after Sunday's miracle, you didn't get the sense that this team was ready to take off and get on a roll of 5-6 wins in a row, like we did after Buehrle's no-no.

Last year, the Twins had to play 38 games over .500 over a four month stretch to catch the Tigers on the last day. They also had to catch only two teams, we will have to pass three, in Detroit, Cleveland and Minnesota. Our bullpen has now blown more games than the Twins last season, both total blown saves (7) and games lost as result of those blown saves (4). Our offense is last in the American League since the All-Star break of 2006 in scoring runs. The low point for the Twins last year was 8 games under .500 and 12 games back. We're staring a 6.5 games back after tomorrow, as the team simply hasn't scored any runs for Danks, I think they're averaging a little over a run per game for him, actually. I don't think we have the ability to play much more than 20 games over .500 for five months, and the odds are that either the Indians and/or the Tigers will be ahead of us....and now we have to deal with the Yankees again with Clemens being added to that staff. For the record, I don't think the Twins will be able to stay with the Tigers and Indians either, but they're a better team than the White Sox and could be a great team again next year if Liriano returns to 100%, which is a big question mark. Sweeney will be a good player in a year or two, and I'd love to see him play everyday for the rest of the season, but he's not going to carry the offense either. He's a complementary player, like Erstad or Mackowiak or Uribe, nothing more. Not yet. I would seriously see what I could get for MacDougal, Thornton and maybe even Jenks...although I'm backing off that a little now, realizing that Aardsma might not ever have the mentality to be a closer, Sisco is too wild and Masset just doesn't have dominating stuff....or he hasn't shown it yet at least.

QUOTE(southsida86 @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:16 PM) Just Logan and Jenks. I think Bobby is unavailable today. 2 games in a row, but he had yesterday off I swear I would walk Morneau here...but it won't happen, you don't want to walk in the winning run

QUOTE(fathom @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:14 PM) The offense didn't exactly go nuts tonight. If not for a terrible throw by Bonser, we might have only one or two runs. Mastny is coming in according to the Twins'...er, Masset. Looks like he's in for the duration, unless the choice is Logan, Ozuna or Buehrle.

QUOTE(TheOcho @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) This is the end. My only friend, the end.... Jim Morrison, 1944-1971

QUOTE(fathom @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:06 PM) Wow, quite funny. It's hard for me to get too down on him after two magical seasons. The HR against Nathan last year was almost as good as Carlos Lee's against Mariano Rivera...or Konerko.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:05 PM) Great f***in AB. Looking forward to running out of pitchers if we somehow make it to 11. We still have Masset and Sisco. The problem is we have 15 games in 16 days and I have a feeling Danks is going to struggle for some reason tomorrow...meaning two "pen" days in a row.