caulfield12

This team has ADD. When you get excited, they let you down. When you are about to give up, they give you a whimper of hope.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 07:55 PM) So...who's next on the AAA bandwagon to come up and play in the outfield? Ernie Young? Maybe we can bring back Ruben Rivera.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 02:59 PM) bulls***, I hate this line of thinking. Silva and Nathan they didn't develop, but it seems to me that it's quite obvious that the Twins likely lack scouts in Latin America, so instead they see these players that other teams are signing and then target them in trades. Santana was a Rule 5 pick; had he stayed with Houston, do you think there's any chance in hell he's the pitcher he is today? Without tutoring from the minor league pitching coaches, do you think Liriano comes up and puts up an ERA of under 2? Kyle Lohse was traded when he was 20 years old in High A ball. The Twins developed those players just as the White Sox developed Neal Cotts and Jon Garland. Sure, they acquired them in trades, but they aren't the pitchers they are today without the White Sox minor league instructors. If Garland had stayed with the Cubs, it's quite possible they would have attempted to turn him into a power arm and that his arm would be dead by now. Aside from that, how about Juan Rincon? Eddie Guardado? JC Romero? Pat Neshek? LaTroy Hawkins? Those are 5 more that have come up and had great success. Jacque Jones, Corey Koskie, Cristian Guzman, Matthew LeCroy, Doug Mientkiewicz, and AJ Pierzynski all came up together through the Twins system, and all have played important roles on teams - usually starting - with the exceptions of Koskie, due to a concussion, Guzman, due to a shoulder (but he's back and starting), and Matthew LeCroy. Can the White Sox top that? And that's not including Punto, Bartlett, David Ortiz, Mohr, Ford, Kielty, Kubel, Mays, etc. The Twins, by and far, have superior developmental and scouting systems than do the White Sox. The last time the White Sox finished in last place was around like 88 I think, so that's basically 20 years or solid baseball. Okay, but we also had Grilli, Cotts, Garland, Guerrier, Majewski, Rauch, Scott Eyre, Joe Valentine, Rocky Biddle, Frank Francisco, Josh Rupe, Kip Wells, Josh Fogg...it's not as if we HAVEN'T produced or nurtured any pitchers that had major league impacts, although most have been disappointing with the Sox.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 10:16 AM) You need a passport to fly to Canada now. It isn't like it used to be. Especially if you have that particulary virulent strain of TB!

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 10:19 AM) Whats that old Styx song, Too Much Time on My Hands. The scenario you present can and likely will change a thousand times between now and then. You're kidding yourself if you think KW doesn't have a board with the FA classes of 09 and 10 on his board and his selected targets. He has to know that it's possible Fields, Anderson, Owens and Sweeney might all fail, so there has to be some type of back-up plan in place (whether you want to call it Plan B, Plan C or Plan D).

QUOTE(AirScott @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 09:58 AM) I don't see the point in making the big splash deals because these Sox aren't that far off. The hitting WILL come around, just because it really doesn't make any sense for it not to -- with the exception of Crede and Uribe (and Dye due to injuries) have done nothing but hit their throughout entire careers. Really, it doesn't make any sense for these guys not to come around. Anywho, I keep throwing out the Reds' David Weathers as one guy to acquire, for starters because the Reds suck so much that he may be made available. He's 37 years old with 16 years experience, which is more than our entire bullpen has combined. While he's been a major league reliever for 16 years, nobody in our pen has done it for more than two years, if that. With him (or any proven veteran reliever who might be available via trade), there would be more clear-cut roles and situations that we'd bring guys in, and we wouldn't have to read these words about Ryan Bukvich and Bret Prinz (this from today's Sun-Times): "...both will be expected to perform in late-inning clutch situations." Whenever you pay for saves (in Weathers' case, 11), you're going to pay through the teeth, even when they're recorded by a 37 year-old or Al Reyes in TB. Maybe it's worth it to give them Lance Broadway, to heck if I know. I would almost rather rely on Aardsma or MacDougal or a player we traded Mac for (change of scenery) rather than dealing prospects for Weathers. Here's another issue with Weathers... 2007, his ERA at home (a park that plays similar to Comiskey) is 6.10 versus 2.65 on the road Small sample size, right? Well, in 2005, 06, and 07 (this is relevant since he's been a Red the entire time)... 4.72 HOME ERA versus 3.07 on the ROAD Which, when you consider the discrepancy in talent between AL and NL, equals, at best, David Riske, and, at worst, a 5+ ERA and the loss of some starting pitching depth. Here's another thought to be concerned about... Lefty Tyler Lumsden got his third straight win Saturday in Omaha’s victory. He improved to 5-3 after allowing one run and three hits in six innings. He is 3-0 with a 2.43 ERA in his last five starts.

QUOTE(Brian @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 09:58 AM) Wow, some people are even looking past next year. You really have to...especially since we have a HUGE gap in our position prospects from the higher levels to the lower levels. The only viable way to fill those needs is by trade, unless we want to see Valido, Getz, Gonzalez, Ozuna, etc., playing middle infield. In that case, it would be really bleak, we'd bottom out and get our first Top 10 draft pick in 17 years, in which case there's a 75% chance (unless we called Larry Himes up) that we'd make the wrong call anyway. Maybe someone like Shelby can emerge as a starting 2B, but I think they have him playing OF right now, even though he was drafted as an infielder. Cunningham, Carter and Allen are nowhere close to being middle infielders, unfortunately. In fact, just go up the middle, Catcher/SS/2B/CF. Nobody. Donny Lucy MIGHT be a back-up catcher in the mold of a Chris Stewart in a couple of seasons. If he has the same career as Wiki Gonzalez, he'd be lucky.

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Jun 5, 2007 -> 09:22 AM) Phew. That was a stupid idea to begin with. Comparing 07 offense to some of the worst Sox teams of my lifetime... 1986 644 runs scored (72-90, the preseason BP projection) 1988 631 runs scored (71-90) 1989 693 runs score (69-92)

Welcome to the Class of FA's who will be available after next season (BLEAK) OUTFIELDERS 30 or UNDER (where you might see a Dye swap, but not to TB) Endy Chavez Luis Matos Larry Bigbie *Pat Burrell *Carl Crawford *Craig Monroe *R. Baldelli Kevin Mench *Willy Mo Pena *Juan Rivera (recovering from broken leg) The two big names will be V. Guerrero and Manny Ramirez. 2B (to replace Iguchi) Jamey Carroll (too old?) Ray Durham (see above) *Mark Ellis *Orlando Hudson SS (to replace Uribe, a little more promising here) Angel Berroa Alex Cora (included because of Joey's presence) *Orlando Cabrera Adam Everett *Rafael Furcal Felipe Lopez *Edgar Renteria CATCHER (bleak, bleak, bleak...we need to produce one every generation! Maybe every White Sox fan out there needs to start training their sons to be catchers?) *Estrada *Redmond *Ross (CIN) Varitek *Vance Wilson Greg Zaun Henry Blanco Adam Melhuse Sal Fasano WHITE SOX FA'S after 2008 Cintron, Crede, Garland, Hall, Ozuna (if he makes it back), AJ, Pods, Thome

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:14 PM) And he still needs to work on his defense as well as shortening his swing. Bringing Fields up to replace Crede should be the LAST move that's made. Not the first. This team isn't losing games because of Joe Crede. It's losing games because of Jermaine Dye/Paul Konerko/the bullpen/Thome being injured. You don't replace stellar defensive players making reasonable salaries as your first attempt to shake things up. You just don't. Not losing much? You can screw up his value by bringing him up to early and having him suck. You can also ruin the kid's confidence by throwing him in the deep end too early. Let the kid develop where he belongs. He isn't the savior. See Alex Gordon for an example, he was SUPPOSED to be ROY and the best 3B prospect in all of baseball, along with Braun I guess.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 11:51 AM) Now I'm actually kinda worried that this trade might happen. Sounds like the organization is pissed that Dye said baseball is a business, and if he gets traded, he'll go play hard somewhere else. Only in this organization can someone say the politically correct thing....and get in hot water for it. With the irony that KW, Guillen and Reinsdorf are about the most politically incorrect. Over the years, we've parted with Durham, Foulke, McDowell, Howry, McCarthy, Widger, Wunsch...some, if not all, were pretty outspoken as players and-or as union reps. So to sum it up, "love" Ozzie speak, as long as it's not from the players themselves.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 11:58 AM) I'd like to add. Who the hell was our "long man" in '05? Did we not win 99 games? Who the hell was our "long man" in '06? Did we not win 90 games? It seems to me that carrying a "long man" for the sake of carrying a "long man" is part of the problem, not the solution. If you've got 3 or 4 respectable bullpen arms, and you need 6 to fill out a major league bullpen, what is the point in carrying #7? One game against the Cubs makes you a starter? How Felix Diaz these days? In 2005, it was essentially Vizcaino. Although I don't think he ever went up into that 3-4-5 innings range. Last year, McCarthy.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 11:35 AM) Maybe we can just pitch Masset when the wind is blowing in 20 mph or it's 20 degrees out. Well, you can say the same for Haeger and Phillips, so that leaves, MAYBE, Broadway or Floyd, possibly Egbert, although the Sox don't usually bring up "non-stuff" guys all the way from AA. About the only exception was Buehrle, maybe? Yep, at age 21, MB jumped from BIRM to CHW without going the Charlotte route.

It's because he's the best candidate in the organization at "long man." If not for the second game of the season against CLE and the Cubs' Sunday sweep avoider, he would be history too. The only solution is to flip-flop him with Gavin Floyd, Lance Broadway, Heath Phillips or Charles Haeger. Maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't. He has definitely shown some flashes, though.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 11:26 AM) Rule 5 pick from the Marlins, IIRC Not exactly... Santana was signed by the Houston Astros as an undrafted free agent in 1995 but remained in Venezuela, where he was named the Tovar Mérida Athlete of the Year in 1999. Later that year, he was selected by the Florida Marlins from Houston in the 1999 rule 5 draft and then traded to the Minnesota Twins for minor leaguer Jared Camp. wikipedia.com

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 11:14 AM) Don't misquote me about Dye. I said that they should have extended him early in the 2006 season when he showed that 2005 was not a fluke and they could have signed him for much less and shorter term - say 3 / $ 30. It doesn't look that great now but I could live with that. They would be down to needing to acquire only 2 more outfielders for next year. Anyway, you can say what you want but the Twins drafting and payer development FAR exceeds the White Sox in success. Not even close. This year is the perfect example. The offense blows at just about every position and the Sox have NO help to bring up. The bullpen is a disaster and the Sox have NO help to bring up. Why have a minor league system if it's worthless ? But the Twins have about the same chance of making the playoffs as the Sox....slim and none. If you were Dye and essentially had a "Andre Dawson/1987" bargain-basement contract for three seasons (in which you made about as much as Bobby Abreu will for 2008), why would you not see what's out there on the open market? The team's reward to JD is to "lowball" him when he's off to a Top 5 MVP finish? That would be like the Sox going to Buehrle again with that $33-35 million/3 year offer. He would laugh in their faces. Looking at the money Roberts, Pierre and Matthews got, not to mention a total tool like JD Drew, I couldn't imagine him accepting it...or the White Sox offering it in mid-season.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 11:20 AM) Well, they certainly didn't have to develop Mauer. They got lucky by being priced-out of Prior in the first place and even drafting Mauer. The Twins do well with developing young pitching, and yet still, they have their Sidney Ponson's they have to throw out there at any given time. But then again, I already went through this yesterday.... Realistically, who have they developed on their own (draft to bigs) since Radke? Lohse came from the Cubs, Silva from Phillies. Bonser, Nathan, Liriano from SFG, Santana was "stolen" too. JD Durbin was a huge disaster, he was once their top pitching prospects. Balfour and Crain went down to season/career-ending injuries. They have Baker, Bonser, Garza, Slowey and Perkins, and they'll be quite lucky if 1-2 of those guys becomes a regular member of the rotation for 3-5 seasons. We have Danks, Masset, Gio, Russell, Floyd, Haeger, Phillips, Broadway and McCullough. I think it's VERY even between the two organizations in young pitching.

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 10:01 AM) I was just thinking about the upcoming draft and I was wondering if there was a way that the White Sox could draft the players and then pay the Twins organization to teach them how to play baseball ? Or better yet, pay the Twins organization to also draft the players for the White Sox. How much would this service be worth ? The Twins are hoping to fund a new stadium. Maybe they could use the money. I know that I would personally contribute to this effort. I thought you wanted to sign Dye to a $60 million, four year contract last offseason? I'm glad that move didn't go down, we'd really be in for some trouble. In answer to your question, NO. And this whole "Twins" system thing is overrated...Punto, Bartlett and Castillo came from other teams and/or minor league systems. Same with Jason Tyner. Lew Ford came from the Red Sox. Rondell White, ditto. We don't need their system, we need Gardenhire, but that's not going to happen either. You do have to give them some credit for David Ortiz, but something obviously held him back in the Twin Cities, right? He went from an average, overweight AL DH to the most-feared hitter in the American League in the span of two years. Otherwise, you're left with Mauer, Cuddyer, Hunter and Morneau...all great players. But we could compare that to, well, Magglio, Carlos Lee, Crede and Rowand, coming up quite a bit short (although both of those former Sox outfielders would look good about right now, but not for those salaries and contract years).

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 10:18 AM) MacDougal, Contreras, Blum, Alomars, Everett, Charles Johnson, Schoenweiss, Freddy Garcia KW makes moves inseason Charles Johnson was Schueler's deal...during the 2000 season. Some other moves, off the top of my head: Scott Sullivan in 2003 dumping Howry, Baldwin, Durham and Lofton in 2002 Riske trading Koch to Marlins Takatsu to Mets (well, it was a waiver move, lol)

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:44 AM) So then your saying the plan was crap from the beginning? The bullpen looked like crap from the beginning? OK - you are entitled to your opinion. As far as Massett goes, if you can't see the potential in him and probably a starter for us soon, then I don't know what to tell you. That Danks/Massett/Rasner for McCarthy trade was unbelievable. I am sorry you can't see that as a feather in KWs cap. Certain players faile KW and the gang. For instance - McDougal should not be this bad. No, I never said that. I could have told them not to take Sisco and MacDougal though, I've seen them a ton since I live in KC (and have lived here for 10 years now), and both are huge projects...even though MacDougal had 21/24 saves one year, it was in the style of Doug Jones and would make Jenks look like Mariano Rivera in 1996-2000. MacDougal has never been able to throw consistent strikes, same with Sisco. Aardsma, we simply couldn't take another chance on Cotts, and Aardsma might turn out okay, but he hasn't been the same since the Thames homer in Detroit. I think the Danks/Masset deal was a good one, I don't think anyone will be able to sit back and call it "great" until 2-3 years from now, same with with Gio and Floyd needing to produce something at the MLB level....because none of that money was invested in at least one veteran reliever. Of course, look at the Indians, they threw out contracts to Williamson, Baez, Walker and Bradford and most of those guys have predictably struggled and soaked up about $15 million in payroll. Same thing with Howry and Eyre, who were overused and abused by Baker (see White Sox/Torborg/Thigpen).

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:39 AM) It looks like Aardsma is going to go to the minors and McDougal is going to shipped out to the minors or another team. Article: http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/412924,041SPT4.article It's logical enough, but the supposed MacDougal trade gives us Rowand, and we don't need Rowand enough (in Ozzie's mind, I think) to displace Pods and/or Erstad for the rest of the season, since KW and OG won't admit that Erstad won't be back at 100%, and I don't see them displacing Erstad while he's hurt after the job everyone claims he did for the Sox. We still have Day/Masset as our RH set-up guys in the 7th and 8th, and I can't wait to see how long they hold up against the Yankees in prime time. The Phillies don't have RH relievers to give us, they need help, so we might be doing the typical Borchard/Thornton or Cotts/Aardsma change of scenery move.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:30 AM) He did? Who gave him credit? Very few people if any at all. Most thought Oz and Coop did a hell of a job - but KW didn't get much credit. He didn't win any awards for his job in 2005. It seems he always gets s*** on around here. He had a pretty damn good plan and still made some good signings and trades - Toby Hall, Darin Erstad, John Danks, Nick Massett - he still can't win. His plan was a good one with the bullpen - it isn't working now even though it did the first month - but he had a plan and it seemed to be a good one. I like having one of the most aggressive GMs in baseball. I like that he always wants to win. I like that we always seem to have a good product on the field and always seem to have a realistic chance to win. It has been that way under his watch.His worst season as GM was in 2002 at 81-81. He has never had a losing season as GM with the White Sox in 5 years. That says a lot. I appreciate the job he has done and respect it. I have faith in him to do his job and get the correct players in here in order to win this year and the years following. I would be shocked if he didn't make any moves to try and better this team immediately. I'll give you a pass on Masset after yesterday, due to the two times he had extended outings (one the Cubs' start) leading directly to Sox wins or comebacks. Still, a 7+ ERA can hardly be called a feather in your cap either, so we're giving him credit strictly based on "potential" and not consistent results. Sisco and MacDougal are not looking good, and Aardsma is struggling about as bad as anyone too. In fact, we're to the point where we don't have a single reliable RHer and too many lefties (Vazquez, Sisco).

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:26 AM) I'd rather Dye remain on the White Sox and lend us compensation picks than swap him for Abreu. It's rather impossible to build up a minor league system when no additional selections or players are entering. Yes, Dye's value is low considering his FA status and poor statistics, but from my perspective -- if we're not on the receiving end of a desperate general manager -- he should remain until the end of the season. Buehrle will certainly lend more. That is where Williams must receive an absolute killing in return. It appears to me Abreu's presence on this ballclub, and in the outfield, would only serve as an extension for Williams to decide on Dye's future replacement. How I figure is next years payroll will still remain substantially high. His salary should not be a burden if Fields replaces Crede and Gonzalez, Buehrle. If there is any substance to this rumor, Williams must be concerned about handing out long-term contracts and stiffling future teams. There's no telling how high the 2009 salary of the White Sox will be. Throwing 15+ million at one player when the overall salary is 75 million won't be too wise unless minor league production improves. The only way adding Abreu for Dye makes sense is if the White Sox were to get money back from the Yankees or significant younger talent, like the Vazquez/Young deal. Or, if Abreu was willing to restructure that $16 million contract for next year, which is 99% unlikely, unless he really wants to get out of NYC and be reunited with Guillen. The problem is that we're hanging onto the 2005 team for another year by adding Abreu as a band-aid (and we keep Buehrle long-term), and the only reason to do that would be the belief that Sweeney is not ready to be the starting RFer in 2008. If we lose Buehrle, we have to no reason to not start turning the roster over and get younger and better at every position possible. There will be some debate about why we would even need AJ, Thome or Konerko, but I think they are the ones most likely to stick, with Uribe 4th and Erstad/Iguchi, although nobody will die from being distraught that any of the latter three are gone.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 06:22 AM) Garza has been backlisted for criticizing the Twins organziation for making him change his style of pitching. Just call him Brian Anderson. It's kind of interesting. I guess he needs to work on the consistency of his breaking stuff, and he feels that he has the "stuff" to not be stuck behind Slowey, Baker and Perkins in the Twins' pecking order. from si.com Slowey looks like another version of a former Twins pitcher Brad Radke. He has a 50/5 K/BB ratio and a 1.76 ERA in eight starts at Triple-A, spanning 56 innings. Batters are hitting just .195 off him. He has had top-of-the-charts control ever since college. A guy that has good stuff and can locate it anywhere he wants at any time will succeed. Garza has a little more notoriety after pitching so lights-out in the minors last year that he got a late-season callup. This season he has a 46/18 K/BB in 49 innings with a 3.49 ERA. He had one bumpy start, but otherwise has shown more consistent command, which was his problem in his major league stint in 2006. He's keeping the ball down in the zone a lot better. They're coming, it's just a question of when, even if trying to predict exactly "when" occurs is sometimes difficult with the Twins

QUOTE(ChWRoCk2 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 12:50 AM) Heres what Im thinking: C AJ Pierzynski 1B Paul Konerko 2B Eckstein 3B Joe Crede SS Juan Uribe OF Josh Fields - Feel he might be given a chance, if not him Owens assumin he stays consistent thus far OF Ichiro Suzuki OF Jermaine Dye DH Jim Thome BN Toby Hall BN Andy G BN Cintron BN Mack BN Owens SP Mark Buehrle SP Jason Jennings SP Jon Garland SP Javy Vazquez SP John Danks Bullpen: Jenks, Day, Lieber, Aardsma, Masset, Logan Crede does have an optinon for 08 I believe, I really think he stays next year, I dont see a trade for Figgins since Angels look to be set in the future at 3B with guys like Mcpherson/Wood/Aybar/Figgins. Figgins probably will be gone not to the Sox. Eckstein just fits our style of play, grindy. Been mentioned quite a bit in this thread and its grown on me that he could come. Id love to see Ichiro, he is in his last year. Would look good in a Sox uni leading off. Erstad obviously leaves, Ichiro or no Ichiro, hes gonna need to earn a spot next year, which Im sure alot of our OFs are gonna be given a fair chance for a spot on the team and he will leave due to the vast competition. Jennings would be a cheap replacement and has proven he can throw in a hitters park, solid option. Lieber would be spot starter for a sudden injury, his agent has good relationship with KW and its about time he comes back to chicago. Where are we getting the idea that any starting pitching would be "cheap" in any way, shape or form, let alone a pitcher close to his prime and possibly improving, in contrast to a Zito or Schmidt? Eckstein will be past his prime (if he's not already) by the time we are close to competitiveness.