michelangelosmonkey

Thanks Tony...that could not have been better stated.

Having a lefty hitting catcher that can walk 100 times a year and hit 25 homers would be one of the most valuable assets in baseball....he wouldn't even have to be a good defensive catcher...just average. Its hard to get an exact feel on what the White Sox think of Collins. In 2018 they had a young, offensive catcher Omar Narvaez and signed Wellington Castillo...many thought they signed Castillo to help with the Manny Machado signing as they were friends. Zack was only 23...he played 74 games that year all at catcher and was the all-star selection for the Southern League. At the end of 2018...the young and interesting Narvaez (he put up a 2 WAR for Sox in 97 games at catcher at 26) was traded for Colome...which seemed to hint the White Sox thought they had a BETTER offense first catcher in the system. That off-season they signed a two year contract with a journeyman catcher, James McCann. In 2019 JM exploded out of the gate and was the all-star catcher, so he caught 106 games and they still had Wellington under contract so he still caught 50 games. Collins, 24, came up and caught 10 games in the pros and caught 50 games in AAA...also he played 21 games at first base for the first time...was that because they lost faith in him as a catcher...or wanted to add to his diversity as a player? In 2020 they signed Grandal...was that because they lost faith in Collins as a catcher or that they thought the team was near ready to compete, Grandal was affordable and a top 3 catcher in the league and 25 year old Collins wasn't ready to manage a staff of young pitchers? Why didn't they trade James McCann?? It's possible that teams saw McCann's second half slide in 2019 and just figured 2019 first half was an illusion and didn't offer anything for him. Why didn't they trade Collins...at that point he had just put up a .950 OPS as a young lefty catcher in AAA. Then 2020 with two great starting catchers they had Collins everyday in Schaumburg catching simulated games with the Sox top young pitchers....everyday for months. Doing nothing but catching under watchful eyes. So now it's 2021 and the Sox made no attempt to resign JM...so they must have a plan for back up catcher. I have written this before but I think this has been the Sox plan all along...it's just JM accidently being great and COVID screwed up the time line. Grandal catches 110 games and Collins catches 50 and backs up at 1b and backs up DH. He's only 26 and catching is a hard art to learn. As Grandal gets older they cut his number of games caught and increase Collins games caught. I've heard Catching is one of the hardest positions to learn...the White Sox have been grooming Collins to be everyday starter for the rest of the window. If you are looking for a comp...Ted Simmons (switch hitting but similar) was a high OBP, 20 homer per year, mediocre defensive catcher that had a 5 year stretch starting at 26 where he put up 25 WAR. Of course if they give the back up catcher job to Lucroy it will tell us 100% that they have no belief that Collins can catch....but what does "Can't catch" even mean? Narvaez was forced to catch 90 games because WC got caught with PEDS and he had seven errors, allowed 12 passed balls, and only threw out 24 percent of runners...and STILL put up near 2 WAR...good hitting catchers are valuable and good hitting lefty catchers more so.

Ah...so you ARE RagahRagah...that explains a lot.

I didn't "praise" the hiring...I was actually for the idea of promoting Jirschele. And fine...JR said that a year ago. I just think management now realizes that they may have stumbled upon something amazing and you don't want to hand the keys to the new Ferrari over to the kid. TLR is almost certainly going to be better than Ricky and could be a nice transitional figure before you hand over the keys to some hot shot young guy they have been grooming...either on the MLB staff or one of the minor league guys like Jirschele. He could also be an inspirational leader that gets more out of his players than they knew they had like he did on so many other teams. Or he could be sitting drunk and napping in the dugout every day which is your position. Doesn't matter...the argument made was that the hiring of TLR was "moronic"...my counter argument is that there are unique people in this world and that special skill they have doesn't necessarily disappear with age. Go ask Nick Saban. If the White Sox go 102-60 this year and win the world series I suspect your first post will be "White Sox win in spite of old drunk manager". Whatever. We are stuck with TLR and I for one and I think dozens of others on here don't want to hear your daily sniping in every topic "sure Robert looks good but the manager is old and drunk". It's boring.

HAHA...I almost started to argue with you.

And I'm looking for a stick to beat this dead horse to death but...I think an interesting comp for Collins is Jorge Posada. He had an elite batting eye as a minor leaguer and decent power but not very good batting average. He didn't reach the majors until 26 and was back up catcher catching 50 game. 27 and 28 he caught 100 games and then after that he was the Yankees regular catcher. He was never great defensively but averaged 4.5 WAR per year for 8 years.

I will be really disappointed if Lucroy makes the team. He had a REALLY good five year stretch offensively and defensively but that was five years ago. I get that he had that neck injury...but he's 35. He's righty. And no major league team wanted him when they could have had him for free. I'm not sure what he could do in a handful of spring training games to convince me to take him over a lefty that is 9 years younger. If they take him over Collins there is something horrible about Collins that we don't know about.

AJ didn't catch 34 games in 2005...for the Sox he was generally around 30 days off catching a year. One of the things people don't seem to get is that Collins is a left handed hitter on a team dominated with righties. I will accept that Yermin is a better hitter than Collins but I'm not convinced he is significantly better. Collins minor league career has had more than double the walk rate than Yermin...20% vs 9%. Having a good batting eye is a good predictor of future MLB success. Collins and Yermin have roughly equivalent power...the one skill that Yermin has strongly over Collins is batting average. So really the blast in the 9th as a pinch hitter is no more likely off of Mercedes than Collins...basically he's more likely to get a single and Collins more likely to get a walk. Strategically though you want that good hitting lefty bat off the bench. The other factor people are ignoring is the future...IF Collins can become a league average defensive catcher...and remember he went to the alternate site last year to work daily with the best coaches they had...and they hired a new catching coach that is supposed to be a guru...so IF he can do that...all of a sudden you have a 26 year old lefty hitter catcher, with an elite batting eye and plus power to transition to as Grandal gets older.

Its a mathematical formula.

Bloated with walks?? OPS doesn't matter how its constructed...walks are a valuable skill. Go find me a useless 100 walks a year guy. Still I hope they are both great.

2020 was so frustrating in this. I raged against the EE signing just because we needed to find out if Collins or Yermin could really hit. But they didn't...and now we are in a fix...and honestly giving Yermin 15 days to "prove himself" in the majors while buying out Vaughn's year will prove nothing. I'm sure he still has an option left so letting him hit everyday in Charlotte and put up an 1100 OPS will get some GM's attention at the trade deadline.

When you say Collins "struggled mightly for 3 years in the minors" WTF? At 21 he put up an .880 OPS while a year and half younger than league average at A+, at 22 he put up an .820 OPS. At 23 he put up a .780 OPS in impossible to hit Birmingham, a year younger than league average at 24 he put up a .951 OPS in AAA. Yermin was CUT BY BALTIMORE AT 24. Age matters in the minors. At 25 Yermin had a .840 OPS at A+ when he was 2.5 years older than league average. He legit was great in 2019 in Birmingham (nearly 2.5 years older than league average) and Charlotte where his OPS was a bit better than Collins though being two years older. That's his track record. Glad you think I cherry pick my stats...please explain exactly what you are doing.

I 100% agree that he can hit. I'm just not convinced he will hit as good as Vaughn...or catch as well as Collins...are be a clubhouse god like Abreu. Honestly the Larry Himes move would be...trade Abreu at his peak...put Vaughn at 1B, Collins as back up catcher and Yermin as full time DH.

Bud...where have you ever seen anything about Yermin's defense in a positive way? He averaged 20 passed balls a year in the minors and I outlined his minors in the last post. Collins...has had accolades throughout college including the Johnny Bench award,...was top ten draft pick, A league all-star, AA league all-star...lead all minors with walks at AA...put up a .951 OPS at AAA...and had twenty really bad at bats in the majors before ending the season with 20 great at bats. Honestly the Collins hate around here is second only to the JR hate. Its fine to say you like Yermin...I like him too...but there is nothing I said untrue.

Where am I hating?? He was 24 and released by Baltimore. AT 25 he had an OK year for Winston Salem...but 2.5 years older than league average. He was indeed GREAT in 2019. But then COVID. Whatcha going to do? I said I thought he was very interesting...but I don't see where he fits on the roster. I'm fine with him being up for the two weeks Vaughn needs to be down to buy back the year...but then what? Honestly you can't take him over Vaughn or Collins...there's just not a spot for him.

I'm not sure where you see that argument...he wasn't even interesting until 2019...2020 got cancelled by COVID and the Sox had signed EE...now...no room for him. If he goes to Charlotte and hits .320 with 30 homers...someone will give you a prospect for him.

So you keep the guy that is two years older, righty, worse defensively and worse track record? OK.

I was in here loudly protesting the EE signing last year...but if you check the roster...he's not here anymore. If you get two of Yermin, Collins and Vaughn...who you taking?

I haven't really seen the hate Yermin comments...I just think it's hard to understand what to do with him. He's already 28 and he's not as good a catcher as Collins (Collins gets a LOT of hate). He came to the States so late...25 at A+ it was hard to take him seriously as a prospect. I'm really intrigued now but I just don't know who you shove aside for him. I guess if he burns up AAA this year you could package him in a trade.

With your logic??? Please don't make up my arguments and then say they are stupid. Comparing football coaches records to baseball coaches records is nonsensical ...30 NFL coaches with ten years experience have won more than 60% of their games...there are TWO MLB managers that have done the same...one died 70 years ago and the other is Charles Comisky. Warren Buffet is 87 and he can handle my money any day. Spielberg is 74 and he can direct my movie. I absolutely would have taken a class on Physics at Princeton when the 75 year old Albert Einstein was teaching it. 70 year old Nick Saban can coach my football team. TLR never left baseball just left the managing...I'm not sure what skill set you think he has lost because he's gotten older. Coaching young men when you are 50 or 60 or 70 is the same thing...you cannot "relate" to their world...but you can lead them. Neither I nor you KNOW what it is that makes a coach/manager "special"...but I'm telling you if Vince Lombardi arose from the dead and wanted to coach the Bears I'd take his 108 year old bones over Matt Nagy. So taking a chance on TLR is not moronic.

Lot of CEOs, US Presidents, US speakers of the House, film directors, money managers, doctors, lawyers, football coaches, etc in their 70s still doing their jobs effectively. If you can't understand the difference between how age effects a middle linebacker and an organizational leader...well have another drink.

So we are clear...you and many like you wanted the rebuild...think it was idiotic to let RH do the rebuild...think all of his moves are terrible...but still...excited for the season as the rebuild has gone so well. More drinks for everyone!

A million people a year get arrested for drunk driving...you are clearly drunk while posting right now...doesnt make you an alcoholic, an idiot or a monster...just a guy making a bad choice in the moment. TLR has an amazing record as a manager. Maybe he's forgotten everything he knows...but its not "moronic" to hire him. As for your rantings on the pitchers? Sober up and we can talk.

So last years fail at the end of the year and playoffs was idiot manager and no third starter for playoffs...So management fires the idiot manager and replaces him with hall of fame manager and trades the failed third starter and gets back a top ten pitcher...and both were moronic moves?? I think at this point there was no move except RHs head on a pike that was going to appease you.

You got me down the rabbit hole with this one...Sosa had tools when the White Sox got him but no where NEAR Robert level expectations...he was never very good in the minors, had 100 good at bats for the White Sox followed by 900 at bats with an OPS of about .650...they played him mostly at RF where he wasn't very good. I remember being excited about him but mainly because he was so young when they got him...and hitting 15 homers and stealing 30 bases in the majors at 21 suggested he might be much better. What really got me going was seeing the trade...the White Sox traded the home town favorite, 30 year old, Harold Baines who was having a great year and got two twenty year old...Sosa and Wilson Alvarez and Scott Fletcher (a useful SS). Who had the balls to make THAT trade? Larry Himes...which reminded me how great he was. He drafted Frank Thomas, Jack McDowell, Ventura, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere and Ray Durham in a three year period. Wow. He built the foundation for those very good 1990's teams and then was mysteriously fired. Ron Schueler got all the credit but seems like there is very little evidence that RS was any good at his job. Himes went to the Cubs and traded with Schueler to get Sosa. Talent evaluation is the most important thing for an organization and I think Himes was the White Sox best at this in the last fifty years...although I'm very optimistic on Hahn right now.