michelangelosmonkey

I don't know about projections but Marwin's last 1100 at bats his OPS is .713. Leury's last 1100 at bats his OPS is .703...and he's two years younger...and we already have him...and he's probably the worst position player on the team. I would feel sad if we felt like we needed to clone him (though cloning Robert I'm fine with).

I'm not sure why you dont like him...I feel like Mendick can be a nice part of the surge. He plays all infield positions...plus defensively...put up .740 OPS in the minors. Seems like a near perfect utility player. If hes got to play two weeks he'll be solid...but not so good he wants to leave for starting spot.

What do you like about him? He's 31. He put up a .600 OPS last year...and his career OPS is .729. He's basically Leury Garcia and we already have him.

He's not an unrestricted free agent until 2024...so let's hold off on the farewell tour for a couple of years.

Past criticism is fine. I really hated the "go for it" 2014-2016 period...but I also get it...we got really lucky with how great Sale/Quintana/Abreu/Eaton were...in 2014 we had four guys that put up a combined 21 WAR...that's HALF way to the WAR you need to get to the playoffs with 4 guys...if we could just fill in around them 21 one-WAR guys but the problem was there was SO much garbage there (and yes, budget). But as a fan, trying to go for it in those years made sense, because...how could you not win with those four? But credit to management that they signed those guys to good contracts, recognized the hopelessness of the hand and then went full rebuild. Which I think has been executed beautifully...still as a fan it's been four painful rebuild years after four painful go-for-it years. But frustration with the FO now? Given the bolded part above...don't you kind of feel like we are the 2012 LA Angels where Mike Trout comes up...except...we have this amazing team around him already under construction. When Ken Griffey, JR came up at 20...the Mariners had 27 year old Edgar Martinez, 26 year old Randy Johnson and 23 year old Omar Vizquel...that's four hall of famers...and for five years they were a non-contender. The problem was that was it's just not enough. It's why it's so hard to win in baseball...but I feel like the management has built a group of really good players...of the likely opening day roster...who is your worst guy? Leury Garcia seems a professional backup. Adam Eaton, same. A lot here would say Collins...but lefty hitting backup catcher with power and a batting eye seems very useful. Reylo and Rodon I supposed but again...with upside. If the plan is 8 years of excellence what management did this year...short term Lynn and Hendricks, long term with Vera and Cespedes...and not handing out bad contracts...and being patient. Seems like the way to go. Probably also why Hahn is so frustrated with fans negativity. HE is so excited...which is a good sign.

Yeah I wish we were the Phillies. Top 4 payroll this year...always landing the big fish. Its really the one path to success.

I think they will do the K-C fifth spot. Katz is a smart innovative pitching coach and I'm sure that he has watched what Tampa Bay has done. Having a regular reliever game fits everyone's needs...Crochet getting stretched out to be a starter, Kopech getting stretched out to be a starter...limiting the innings for each (27 starts at 3 per start is 81 innings which would be near perfect) the White Sox not really needing two more elite arms in the bullpen...and the Sox filling the fifth starter role with either a lefty or righty starter depending on the team you are facing. I can't name a single available pitcher this offseason that I would rather have than that. Yu Darvish?? A Pirates pitcher? As for no faith in Rodon...you shouldn't have faith...but again...go look at Mike Minor's career...very similar in expectations, disappoints and long stints on the injury reserve...and then at 30 he was really good. Maybe you give Rodon a few April starts while we earn back that year of eligibility from Kopech. The team invested in starting pitching with Lance Lynn...I'm not sure I wanted to throw more assets at that spot until we see what happens to the guys with dazzling stuff.

The full article was behind the paywall so I just saw he was irritated at the meme. Sox payroll right now is at $125m A top 5 payroll is $175m. If we really don't increase payroll aggressively in the next couple of years...I agree and will hate on Hahn (or JR). Still if looking at this strategically I love our position...zero bad contracts and a low payroll as we enter the window. So many ways we can go.

This is frequently stated by many but I'm not sure I exactly follow. We have three proven innings eating front line starters. We have Cease who is half way there. We have Rodon and Lopez with lots of starting experience and we have Kopech and Crochett who I keep advocating as the "fifth" starter with three innings for each. I feel like that is five exciting starters (K-C as the fifth) with two back ups with experience/upside. If you pay Bauer that eliminates the K-C concept...and also eliminates the extensions of Gio or Lopez...or stops us from getting Sale or Wheeler at the deadline. I'm not sure outside of the Dodgers that any team has MORE starting pitching depth than the White Sox. Obviously one of the top three blowing out their arms ruins things...which is true for all none Dodger teams...you can stay up at night worrying about it but I'd ask you which move would have fixed it?

I appreciate a good counter argument...I'm just not sure what is the point of being nasty about it...I give a range of potential outcomes...given the argument that Vaughn could be worse than EE. And you don't just counter my position...you say it is ridiculous and nonsensical. You could come back and say...let's call his upside Konerko instead of Frank...that's fair. I think it's great when people point out that the last "can't miss" guy we had was Gordon Beckham. It helps me frame things because I remember in GB's rookie season he put up a 2.2 WAR in his first 100 games and then 5.2 WAR his next 1000. I think secretly we all know that any of these guys could end up being bums. And when I start talking about 2021 with potentially Frank Thomas at first, Rod Carew at 2b, Mike Schmidt at 3b. Ken Griffey Jr in CF, Manny Ramirez in LF...you can tell me to put down the crack pipe...I probably need that occasionally....but man we are all fans of the same team...we all WANT that to happen. Sox brothers if nothing else.

But I didn't...I said that was his range of outcomes...EE's .673 and FT .983. And if you look at a lot of his attributes he is like Frank...great batters eye, great approach, natural power. He is VERY unlikely to be that good...but I think he could be 90% as good as Frank which would be about a 5 WAR a year for 7 years.

I think it must be frustrating for Hahn because I think he has a clearly defined plan that really seems like its working...and yes he has a budget...and yes the money will be spent. But isn't it possible he didn't like any of the big names this offseason? The big fish were...Bauer...who had an amazing 73 innings in 2020 COVID year, after being fairly mediocre in 2019...a year where his contending team traded him at the trade deadline...that is a very controversial guy...and he got $40 million a year??? Instead he got Lance Lynn. Realmuto who we didn't need...and Springer who was going to be paid a premium as a centerfielder which we didn't need. Maybe he could have outbid everyone...but what if he uses that money to extend Gio...or take bad contracts (Sale, Yelich) at the deadline or watches how the team unfolds and spends then. We don't know...but given our lack of knowledge, and with the predicate that he's done really well with the rebuild...he gets to hear he sucks and he lied by 3/4 of the twitterverse...and 3/4 of Soxtalk. At THIS point we should give them man some trust. Not total but at least guarded.

I insult no one else on this board. I did not start out by insulting you. Months ago, after half a dozen arguments with you, I realized that you weren't here to discuss or persuade or follow the White Sox you were here to troll people...and honestly...you are great at it. I'm getting the hang of this message board thing. It's mostly fun...you just have to check under every bridge you cross because trolls exist. Have a great day RagRag.

Dude...you distort EVERY argument...and then come back with a pomposity that cannot be real. And yes, I have been cruel with my comments...and yes I then did reengage because you comment on every stream and I am inexperienced enough with message boards that I did not really understand what a troll is. As for "If I talk about apples and you immediately ignore..." is EXACTLY what you do. I try to put reasoned responses on here...I try to make my arguments and I respect even those who strongly disagree with me (honestly Collins is going to be great)...but 100% of the time you misrepresent what I and others are arguing, 100% of the time you insult the people you disagree with and 100% of the time you view the White Sox in the most negative way. I don't think you are real...I think you are a Cubs fan...or maybe a Yankees fan...that thinks it will be funny to come on a teams message board and wind people up. Thus my too often "too stupid to argue with" comments. I apologize. I won't say it again. Neither will I engage.

Ha ha....yup. Too stupid to argue with.

Some of your criticism is fair...we optimists should not be dunking on you pessimists...but it just can be exhausting on Soxtalk where it seems 3/4 of the regular posters are so negative...and yes not 100% negative...it generally starts out as "I'm excited about this team but..." and then we have to hear some tirade about Tony LaRussa being a drunk or JR being cheap. Why is that interesting reading? Giolito had an interview the other day where he said "Bummer has the best pitch in all of baseball". That's so interesting especially compared to the 1000 time we have to read where we are idiots for having traded Tatis. As for the "not spending money" constant concept...I get bored re-writing this but JR HAS had top 5 payrolls in the 2000's, 90's and 80's when the team was good. If the plan is to have a long window part of that is not handing out bad or un-necessary contracts. Dodgers and Yankees can get away with that...but being the second, and somewhat unloved, team in a market is always going to make that hard. If you think spending money is the way to win...the Phillies, Rockies, Angels, Mets, Giants etc would like to say hello. You win by talent evaluation...which I'm pretty pleased at right now (and was very unhappy with for decades before). You sustain winning by sensible budgeting. Right now we are in a great position to be vultures...when the Brewers season crashes...ask them about Yelich. When the Bosox season crashes go after Sale. When the Phillies season crashes go after Harper or Wheeler. Right now the Padres have $100 million committed in 2022 to four guys that are in their 30's. I'm ok watching this play out.

You know what is speculation? Everything you and everyone else here says. The difference is your speculation is always negative. There is a range of potential outcomes for Vaughn this year...EE .627 OPS from last year would be the ridiculously lower bound. Frank Thomas's rookie season...roughly same age, same path, same hitting style (high average, high walks, plus power) OPS of .987 would be the upper bound. I'd be happy to bet you any sum of money that Vaughn's OPS will be better than .627. It is absolute speculation that 30 year old Bauer will be the Cy Young TB of 2020 and not the TB with the 4.5 ERA of 2019. It is absolute speculation that the 31 year old George Springer will be the amazing 2020 GS and not the meh GS of 2018. When you look at young players you SPECULATE on how they will evolve...we saw Robert destroy the minor leagues, we saw him destroy MLB in his first month...and then he was TERRIBLE his last month. If you want to look at that body of work and say...he'll probably continue to be terrible...ok...that's a position to take...no one can refute that. I just think you are the guy that sees pictures of your co-workers new baby and says...she'll probably turn out to be ugly. You might be right, you might be wrong but you are always unlikeable.

Any team could have had him for a million dollars of international pool money. Are the Bucks geniuses for drafting Giannis 17th and all the other teams idiots? Every NFL team passed on Tom Brady about five times including the Patriots. Sometimes there is just damn luck in player development.

There are two separate arguments...trading for Shields=bad...which MANY on Sox talk said at the time (though your regression story isn't true...he averaged 3.5 WAR the previous 5 years and had a 3.00 ERA and 0.7 WAR through the first third of the season. looking elite until he gave up 10 runs in his last start before being traded). Lance Lynn could absolutely become James Shields 2.0. Those that argued about trading Dunning for him should have used JS as exhibit A. Including Tatis was not a bungle it was bad luck...no one on Sox talk or anywhere that I can find, concurrently, bemoaned including him in the trade. I can accept the Shields=Bad argument because it's reasonable at the time. Though Its only a debacle in hindsight...I have made the argument that at the time of the Verlander trade the Astros could have been getting James Shields 2.0...it just turned out right for them and wrong for Shields. Roll the dice you take your chances.

Yes...by the time he got state side he began turning people's heads. But that's not when he was traded. Months before ANY TEAM in baseball, including the Padres could have had, Tatis, Jr for a million dollars signing bonus. In the exact same signing period the White Sox gave twice as much money to Franklin Reyes who also had a family member (brother) who was a major league player. He "...has shown raw power and a plus arm"...and he was out of baseball two years later. If the Padres had taken him instead of Tatis we wouldn't be talking about a debacle. There are tens of thousands of 17 year old baseball players and only one of them turned into the greatest player of all time. If you think this was not just bad luck...OK.

Throwing in Carlos Colmenarez in a trade almost never matters...there's new ones coming every year. Even if its for something as grubby as money. We can't be paralyzed because the powerball hit.

Tatis was not on anyones top 25 list of international prospects that year. Look over the last fifty years at the players outside the top 25 international players and how many made the major leauges...then look at the ones that went on to be the best player in baseball. Heres the list: Fernando Tatis, Jr. If he were signed this year he wouldn't be in our top 50 prospects. If by design you mean the White Sox went to the padres and said "you can take any one prospect outside our top 50"...It was a reasonable upside bet for them. But it was really just horrible luck.

And I just have to repeat....The Tatis trade was not a debacle...it was putting a lottery ticket in a birthday card for someone at work and it turns out to be the winning powerball. You sure look stupid after the fact but at the time it was a lark.

Brilliant words by Branch. Still...it seems like the 2013-16 Sox were the team counting on luck...Sale and Quintana and if we can just make the playoffs we could make a run. The 2021 team has been built methodically and the off season seemed to be a part of the plan. I like where the team is at and you know who else is counting on a little luck? The Dodgers...for ten years they've had one of the highest payrolls, one of the best teams in baseball and one of the best farm clubs...last 8 years averaging 98 wins, went to the playoffs 8 times and won one world series. You are right that we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves...but I also think it's fun to dream a bit. Dynasties rarely happen but it's every fan's dream. That's why I pooh pooh adding Musgrove or Teheran or Brantley or Cruz...the team as constructed should make the playoffs and none of those guys is going to make them a can't lose team...but a breakthrough by Cease...and Vaughn...and Madrigal...and Kopeck...could boost us from good team to legendary. When legendary is still a possible outcome I think you try to play that hand to see if it can happen.

To stupid to argue with.