michelangelosmonkey

I was in here loudly protesting the EE signing last year...but if you check the roster...he's not here anymore. If you get two of Yermin, Collins and Vaughn...who you taking?

I haven't really seen the hate Yermin comments...I just think it's hard to understand what to do with him. He's already 28 and he's not as good a catcher as Collins (Collins gets a LOT of hate). He came to the States so late...25 at A+ it was hard to take him seriously as a prospect. I'm really intrigued now but I just don't know who you shove aside for him. I guess if he burns up AAA this year you could package him in a trade.

With your logic??? Please don't make up my arguments and then say they are stupid. Comparing football coaches records to baseball coaches records is nonsensical ...30 NFL coaches with ten years experience have won more than 60% of their games...there are TWO MLB managers that have done the same...one died 70 years ago and the other is Charles Comisky. Warren Buffet is 87 and he can handle my money any day. Spielberg is 74 and he can direct my movie. I absolutely would have taken a class on Physics at Princeton when the 75 year old Albert Einstein was teaching it. 70 year old Nick Saban can coach my football team. TLR never left baseball just left the managing...I'm not sure what skill set you think he has lost because he's gotten older. Coaching young men when you are 50 or 60 or 70 is the same thing...you cannot "relate" to their world...but you can lead them. Neither I nor you KNOW what it is that makes a coach/manager "special"...but I'm telling you if Vince Lombardi arose from the dead and wanted to coach the Bears I'd take his 108 year old bones over Matt Nagy. So taking a chance on TLR is not moronic.

Lot of CEOs, US Presidents, US speakers of the House, film directors, money managers, doctors, lawyers, football coaches, etc in their 70s still doing their jobs effectively. If you can't understand the difference between how age effects a middle linebacker and an organizational leader...well have another drink.

So we are clear...you and many like you wanted the rebuild...think it was idiotic to let RH do the rebuild...think all of his moves are terrible...but still...excited for the season as the rebuild has gone so well. More drinks for everyone!

A million people a year get arrested for drunk driving...you are clearly drunk while posting right now...doesnt make you an alcoholic, an idiot or a monster...just a guy making a bad choice in the moment. TLR has an amazing record as a manager. Maybe he's forgotten everything he knows...but its not "moronic" to hire him. As for your rantings on the pitchers? Sober up and we can talk.

So last years fail at the end of the year and playoffs was idiot manager and no third starter for playoffs...So management fires the idiot manager and replaces him with hall of fame manager and trades the failed third starter and gets back a top ten pitcher...and both were moronic moves?? I think at this point there was no move except RHs head on a pike that was going to appease you.

You got me down the rabbit hole with this one...Sosa had tools when the White Sox got him but no where NEAR Robert level expectations...he was never very good in the minors, had 100 good at bats for the White Sox followed by 900 at bats with an OPS of about .650...they played him mostly at RF where he wasn't very good. I remember being excited about him but mainly because he was so young when they got him...and hitting 15 homers and stealing 30 bases in the majors at 21 suggested he might be much better. What really got me going was seeing the trade...the White Sox traded the home town favorite, 30 year old, Harold Baines who was having a great year and got two twenty year old...Sosa and Wilson Alvarez and Scott Fletcher (a useful SS). Who had the balls to make THAT trade? Larry Himes...which reminded me how great he was. He drafted Frank Thomas, Jack McDowell, Ventura, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere and Ray Durham in a three year period. Wow. He built the foundation for those very good 1990's teams and then was mysteriously fired. Ron Schueler got all the credit but seems like there is very little evidence that RS was any good at his job. Himes went to the Cubs and traded with Schueler to get Sosa. Talent evaluation is the most important thing for an organization and I think Himes was the White Sox best at this in the last fifty years...although I'm very optimistic on Hahn right now.

I don't know about projections but Marwin's last 1100 at bats his OPS is .713. Leury's last 1100 at bats his OPS is .703...and he's two years younger...and we already have him...and he's probably the worst position player on the team. I would feel sad if we felt like we needed to clone him (though cloning Robert I'm fine with).

I'm not sure why you dont like him...I feel like Mendick can be a nice part of the surge. He plays all infield positions...plus defensively...put up .740 OPS in the minors. Seems like a near perfect utility player. If hes got to play two weeks he'll be solid...but not so good he wants to leave for starting spot.

What do you like about him? He's 31. He put up a .600 OPS last year...and his career OPS is .729. He's basically Leury Garcia and we already have him.

He's not an unrestricted free agent until 2024...so let's hold off on the farewell tour for a couple of years.

Past criticism is fine. I really hated the "go for it" 2014-2016 period...but I also get it...we got really lucky with how great Sale/Quintana/Abreu/Eaton were...in 2014 we had four guys that put up a combined 21 WAR...that's HALF way to the WAR you need to get to the playoffs with 4 guys...if we could just fill in around them 21 one-WAR guys but the problem was there was SO much garbage there (and yes, budget). But as a fan, trying to go for it in those years made sense, because...how could you not win with those four? But credit to management that they signed those guys to good contracts, recognized the hopelessness of the hand and then went full rebuild. Which I think has been executed beautifully...still as a fan it's been four painful rebuild years after four painful go-for-it years. But frustration with the FO now? Given the bolded part above...don't you kind of feel like we are the 2012 LA Angels where Mike Trout comes up...except...we have this amazing team around him already under construction. When Ken Griffey, JR came up at 20...the Mariners had 27 year old Edgar Martinez, 26 year old Randy Johnson and 23 year old Omar Vizquel...that's four hall of famers...and for five years they were a non-contender. The problem was that was it's just not enough. It's why it's so hard to win in baseball...but I feel like the management has built a group of really good players...of the likely opening day roster...who is your worst guy? Leury Garcia seems a professional backup. Adam Eaton, same. A lot here would say Collins...but lefty hitting backup catcher with power and a batting eye seems very useful. Reylo and Rodon I supposed but again...with upside. If the plan is 8 years of excellence what management did this year...short term Lynn and Hendricks, long term with Vera and Cespedes...and not handing out bad contracts...and being patient. Seems like the way to go. Probably also why Hahn is so frustrated with fans negativity. HE is so excited...which is a good sign.

Yeah I wish we were the Phillies. Top 4 payroll this year...always landing the big fish. Its really the one path to success.

I think they will do the K-C fifth spot. Katz is a smart innovative pitching coach and I'm sure that he has watched what Tampa Bay has done. Having a regular reliever game fits everyone's needs...Crochet getting stretched out to be a starter, Kopech getting stretched out to be a starter...limiting the innings for each (27 starts at 3 per start is 81 innings which would be near perfect) the White Sox not really needing two more elite arms in the bullpen...and the Sox filling the fifth starter role with either a lefty or righty starter depending on the team you are facing. I can't name a single available pitcher this offseason that I would rather have than that. Yu Darvish?? A Pirates pitcher? As for no faith in Rodon...you shouldn't have faith...but again...go look at Mike Minor's career...very similar in expectations, disappoints and long stints on the injury reserve...and then at 30 he was really good. Maybe you give Rodon a few April starts while we earn back that year of eligibility from Kopech. The team invested in starting pitching with Lance Lynn...I'm not sure I wanted to throw more assets at that spot until we see what happens to the guys with dazzling stuff.

The full article was behind the paywall so I just saw he was irritated at the meme. Sox payroll right now is at $125m A top 5 payroll is $175m. If we really don't increase payroll aggressively in the next couple of years...I agree and will hate on Hahn (or JR). Still if looking at this strategically I love our position...zero bad contracts and a low payroll as we enter the window. So many ways we can go.

This is frequently stated by many but I'm not sure I exactly follow. We have three proven innings eating front line starters. We have Cease who is half way there. We have Rodon and Lopez with lots of starting experience and we have Kopech and Crochett who I keep advocating as the "fifth" starter with three innings for each. I feel like that is five exciting starters (K-C as the fifth) with two back ups with experience/upside. If you pay Bauer that eliminates the K-C concept...and also eliminates the extensions of Gio or Lopez...or stops us from getting Sale or Wheeler at the deadline. I'm not sure outside of the Dodgers that any team has MORE starting pitching depth than the White Sox. Obviously one of the top three blowing out their arms ruins things...which is true for all none Dodger teams...you can stay up at night worrying about it but I'd ask you which move would have fixed it?

I appreciate a good counter argument...I'm just not sure what is the point of being nasty about it...I give a range of potential outcomes...given the argument that Vaughn could be worse than EE. And you don't just counter my position...you say it is ridiculous and nonsensical. You could come back and say...let's call his upside Konerko instead of Frank...that's fair. I think it's great when people point out that the last "can't miss" guy we had was Gordon Beckham. It helps me frame things because I remember in GB's rookie season he put up a 2.2 WAR in his first 100 games and then 5.2 WAR his next 1000. I think secretly we all know that any of these guys could end up being bums. And when I start talking about 2021 with potentially Frank Thomas at first, Rod Carew at 2b, Mike Schmidt at 3b. Ken Griffey Jr in CF, Manny Ramirez in LF...you can tell me to put down the crack pipe...I probably need that occasionally....but man we are all fans of the same team...we all WANT that to happen. Sox brothers if nothing else.

But I didn't...I said that was his range of outcomes...EE's .673 and FT .983. And if you look at a lot of his attributes he is like Frank...great batters eye, great approach, natural power. He is VERY unlikely to be that good...but I think he could be 90% as good as Frank which would be about a 5 WAR a year for 7 years.

I think it must be frustrating for Hahn because I think he has a clearly defined plan that really seems like its working...and yes he has a budget...and yes the money will be spent. But isn't it possible he didn't like any of the big names this offseason? The big fish were...Bauer...who had an amazing 73 innings in 2020 COVID year, after being fairly mediocre in 2019...a year where his contending team traded him at the trade deadline...that is a very controversial guy...and he got $40 million a year??? Instead he got Lance Lynn. Realmuto who we didn't need...and Springer who was going to be paid a premium as a centerfielder which we didn't need. Maybe he could have outbid everyone...but what if he uses that money to extend Gio...or take bad contracts (Sale, Yelich) at the deadline or watches how the team unfolds and spends then. We don't know...but given our lack of knowledge, and with the predicate that he's done really well with the rebuild...he gets to hear he sucks and he lied by 3/4 of the twitterverse...and 3/4 of Soxtalk. At THIS point we should give them man some trust. Not total but at least guarded.

I insult no one else on this board. I did not start out by insulting you. Months ago, after half a dozen arguments with you, I realized that you weren't here to discuss or persuade or follow the White Sox you were here to troll people...and honestly...you are great at it. I'm getting the hang of this message board thing. It's mostly fun...you just have to check under every bridge you cross because trolls exist. Have a great day RagRag.

Dude...you distort EVERY argument...and then come back with a pomposity that cannot be real. And yes, I have been cruel with my comments...and yes I then did reengage because you comment on every stream and I am inexperienced enough with message boards that I did not really understand what a troll is. As for "If I talk about apples and you immediately ignore..." is EXACTLY what you do. I try to put reasoned responses on here...I try to make my arguments and I respect even those who strongly disagree with me (honestly Collins is going to be great)...but 100% of the time you misrepresent what I and others are arguing, 100% of the time you insult the people you disagree with and 100% of the time you view the White Sox in the most negative way. I don't think you are real...I think you are a Cubs fan...or maybe a Yankees fan...that thinks it will be funny to come on a teams message board and wind people up. Thus my too often "too stupid to argue with" comments. I apologize. I won't say it again. Neither will I engage.

Ha ha....yup. Too stupid to argue with.

Some of your criticism is fair...we optimists should not be dunking on you pessimists...but it just can be exhausting on Soxtalk where it seems 3/4 of the regular posters are so negative...and yes not 100% negative...it generally starts out as "I'm excited about this team but..." and then we have to hear some tirade about Tony LaRussa being a drunk or JR being cheap. Why is that interesting reading? Giolito had an interview the other day where he said "Bummer has the best pitch in all of baseball". That's so interesting especially compared to the 1000 time we have to read where we are idiots for having traded Tatis. As for the "not spending money" constant concept...I get bored re-writing this but JR HAS had top 5 payrolls in the 2000's, 90's and 80's when the team was good. If the plan is to have a long window part of that is not handing out bad or un-necessary contracts. Dodgers and Yankees can get away with that...but being the second, and somewhat unloved, team in a market is always going to make that hard. If you think spending money is the way to win...the Phillies, Rockies, Angels, Mets, Giants etc would like to say hello. You win by talent evaluation...which I'm pretty pleased at right now (and was very unhappy with for decades before). You sustain winning by sensible budgeting. Right now we are in a great position to be vultures...when the Brewers season crashes...ask them about Yelich. When the Bosox season crashes go after Sale. When the Phillies season crashes go after Harper or Wheeler. Right now the Padres have $100 million committed in 2022 to four guys that are in their 30's. I'm ok watching this play out.

You know what is speculation? Everything you and everyone else here says. The difference is your speculation is always negative. There is a range of potential outcomes for Vaughn this year...EE .627 OPS from last year would be the ridiculously lower bound. Frank Thomas's rookie season...roughly same age, same path, same hitting style (high average, high walks, plus power) OPS of .987 would be the upper bound. I'd be happy to bet you any sum of money that Vaughn's OPS will be better than .627. It is absolute speculation that 30 year old Bauer will be the Cy Young TB of 2020 and not the TB with the 4.5 ERA of 2019. It is absolute speculation that the 31 year old George Springer will be the amazing 2020 GS and not the meh GS of 2018. When you look at young players you SPECULATE on how they will evolve...we saw Robert destroy the minor leagues, we saw him destroy MLB in his first month...and then he was TERRIBLE his last month. If you want to look at that body of work and say...he'll probably continue to be terrible...ok...that's a position to take...no one can refute that. I just think you are the guy that sees pictures of your co-workers new baby and says...she'll probably turn out to be ugly. You might be right, you might be wrong but you are always unlikeable.