michelangelosmonkey

Any team could have had him for a million dollars of international pool money. Are the Bucks geniuses for drafting Giannis 17th and all the other teams idiots? Every NFL team passed on Tom Brady about five times including the Patriots. Sometimes there is just damn luck in player development.

There are two separate arguments...trading for Shields=bad...which MANY on Sox talk said at the time (though your regression story isn't true...he averaged 3.5 WAR the previous 5 years and had a 3.00 ERA and 0.7 WAR through the first third of the season. looking elite until he gave up 10 runs in his last start before being traded). Lance Lynn could absolutely become James Shields 2.0. Those that argued about trading Dunning for him should have used JS as exhibit A. Including Tatis was not a bungle it was bad luck...no one on Sox talk or anywhere that I can find, concurrently, bemoaned including him in the trade. I can accept the Shields=Bad argument because it's reasonable at the time. Though Its only a debacle in hindsight...I have made the argument that at the time of the Verlander trade the Astros could have been getting James Shields 2.0...it just turned out right for them and wrong for Shields. Roll the dice you take your chances.

Yes...by the time he got state side he began turning people's heads. But that's not when he was traded. Months before ANY TEAM in baseball, including the Padres could have had, Tatis, Jr for a million dollars signing bonus. In the exact same signing period the White Sox gave twice as much money to Franklin Reyes who also had a family member (brother) who was a major league player. He "...has shown raw power and a plus arm"...and he was out of baseball two years later. If the Padres had taken him instead of Tatis we wouldn't be talking about a debacle. There are tens of thousands of 17 year old baseball players and only one of them turned into the greatest player of all time. If you think this was not just bad luck...OK.

Throwing in Carlos Colmenarez in a trade almost never matters...there's new ones coming every year. Even if its for something as grubby as money. We can't be paralyzed because the powerball hit.

Tatis was not on anyones top 25 list of international prospects that year. Look over the last fifty years at the players outside the top 25 international players and how many made the major leauges...then look at the ones that went on to be the best player in baseball. Heres the list: Fernando Tatis, Jr. If he were signed this year he wouldn't be in our top 50 prospects. If by design you mean the White Sox went to the padres and said "you can take any one prospect outside our top 50"...It was a reasonable upside bet for them. But it was really just horrible luck.

And I just have to repeat....The Tatis trade was not a debacle...it was putting a lottery ticket in a birthday card for someone at work and it turns out to be the winning powerball. You sure look stupid after the fact but at the time it was a lark.

Brilliant words by Branch. Still...it seems like the 2013-16 Sox were the team counting on luck...Sale and Quintana and if we can just make the playoffs we could make a run. The 2021 team has been built methodically and the off season seemed to be a part of the plan. I like where the team is at and you know who else is counting on a little luck? The Dodgers...for ten years they've had one of the highest payrolls, one of the best teams in baseball and one of the best farm clubs...last 8 years averaging 98 wins, went to the playoffs 8 times and won one world series. You are right that we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves...but I also think it's fun to dream a bit. Dynasties rarely happen but it's every fan's dream. That's why I pooh pooh adding Musgrove or Teheran or Brantley or Cruz...the team as constructed should make the playoffs and none of those guys is going to make them a can't lose team...but a breakthrough by Cease...and Vaughn...and Madrigal...and Kopeck...could boost us from good team to legendary. When legendary is still a possible outcome I think you try to play that hand to see if it can happen.

To stupid to argue with.

I find you to be one of the reasoned voices on here...so I guess I'm surprised at your seeming anger at the off season. Lynn was the best pitcher that changed hands in the AL this offseason...Hendricks is a great upgrade...Tony LaRussa is almost certainly going to be better than Ricky. Eaton is a pro. Cespedes and Vera seem like exciting young additions. Vaughn instead of EE...Katz instead of Coop. And we are keeping a tight budget to go buy someone at the trade deadline...like I mentioned a second ago...how about Chris Sale??

Yes that's why this year will be so interesting. Keuchel and Lynn I think of more as the David Wells/Mark Buehrle sort...bulldogs that will throw lots of innings and get lots of wins because they keep you in games....which is great for regular season. But playoffs you need guys like Gio that can throw a 7 inning 2 hitter....guys with other worldy stuff. Cease/Kopech and Crochett can all be that sort but so early to tell. So making a big add during the season...what do you think about Chris Sale...supposed to be back mid-year. Boston will want salary relief. We have money. Could he be our Grienke?

I guess I'm not saying how did their careers end up...because we know about the 2000 and 1995 staffs....but what was thought of them at the time. If you look at Wells stats at the time he came up he wasn't nearly as good as Stiever's stats. I remember being excited about him...but no where near the Kopech/Crochet/Cease excitement. Garland had a nice career...but in 1998 we got him from the Cubs for 31 year old Matt Karcher who really wasn't very good. At 19 he had an OK time at A+ but not dominating stuff...and then at 20 in 2000 he was in our rotation. I don't think a person here would trade 19 year old Jared Kelly for 19 year old Jon Garland (again assuming we didn't know future performance). I think the cautionary tale is that 1994 staff with a 28 year old McDowell, and very young Fernandez, Alvarez, Bere with Ruffcorn and Baldwin in the minors and it looked like 4 or 5 aces...sort of like now. Then the next year McDowell signs with the Yankees (Gio), Bere after going 12-2 blew out his arm, Ruffcorn and Baldwin never developed and that dream team never happened...though that 1994 team that we lost the WS because of stupid strike....was the best I ever followed...until now.

Who here doesn't think this could be our year? You aren't suggesting we aren't trying to win this year are you? In the playoffs you need three great starters, a dynamic bullpen, a strong defense and a strong offense. Our weakness seems to be fourth and fifth starter...which is more likely to make getting to the playoffs harder...but honestly...slug one and slug two giving up 5 runs a game are going to win a lot of games with this offense. I'm not sure I like anyone better than White Sox if the playoffs started tomorrow.

I lived through that ERA but no where near this level of power arms...I dont think we knew who Buehrle was until he came up and was great...in 2000 he was just a lefty control pitcher. Jon Rauch in 2000 was Kopech exciting...but only that one year. Kip Wells but maybe Stiever exciting? Great A pitcher...but age and stats all favor Stiever. You didnt mention Garland who was 20 in 2000 and seemed exciting. The other guys you mention I recall but not to the same level. I think if you were drafting 2000 Sox pitchers and 2021 Rauch top five...maybe third. Wells maybe 7th? Could be recency bias...and obviously in retrospect you have Buehrle and Garland in top five. But I have to say from a potential point 2021 by a mile. A better comparison is 1995....Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez , Jason Bere, Mike Sirotka, Scott Ruffcorn, James Baldwin...I remember being really excited about Baldwin and Ruffcorn. But not much after them.

Hate to speak for others but...the core of the dozen best players are 25 or younger. Peaks years would be when they are 26-27-28. So we will see exciting up and comers this year and in a year or two we will see them at their full power.

I don't CARE about Teheran...I am SO excited about this team. In all my following of the White Sox I can't remember so many exciting pitchers under 26...Gio, Cease, Kopech, Crochet, Kelly, Stiever, Thompson, Dahlquist...all on the roster or in our top ten prospect list. I just don't want the White Sox even considering some 30 year old cast off...irrespective of his league average skills...even if he's free....I don't want them to look at Leake or Hamels. This is not the time...this is not the team...back when the Sox were trying to squeeze a contender out of the Sale/Quintana/Eaton/Abreu group and they had all sorts of garbage on their staff, bullpen and lineup...sure...bring in Teheran and dream. But this team has way to much talent to be grasping at straws...and if the wheels do fall of the cart with the rotation...I'm pretty sure you can find a Teheran equivalent by trading a fringe prospect to a non-contender.

That's fair...would you have been ok with "We got a top ten starting pitcher in baseball and the best relief pitcher in baseball"? I can't understand why people aren't more excited about this. Teheran gets more love on here than Lance Lynn.

Don't be afraid...it's spring...its the time to be optimistic. You say our depth is bad and I look at the best 26 man roster I've ever seen with the White Sox. Leury Garcia and Adam Engel seem like professional back ups, Collins and Mendick both offer interesting skill sets as back ups. As for the spending of money...OK, it's frustrating that we can't sign a $300 million contract...but I remember when Bill Veeck couldn't meet the payroll. We've had top five payrolls under JR so it's just pessimism to say it won't happen again. As for Vaughn...just wait!!!

No I said Lynn and Hendricks were both Cy Young candidates from last season.

Wow so you want to die on the Teheran hill? Yes 30 is on the downside of a pitchers career...and especially looks bad on a guy who hasn't been "good" since 2016. While he is "free" the point is you have a limited number of pitchers you can have on your roster. It's so ridiculous that Stiever was "pounded" last year (one bad inning actually), Lopez is garbage with his 6 ERA but Teheran who had a 10 ERA is fine to bring in. More Teheran is not better...it is a sign of desperation for a bad team...honest.

Why do you want to be a White Sox fan if you hate everything about the organization? i get how frustrating it must have been this off season for you with getting only two Cy Young candidates, a Hall of Fame manager, four top fifty prospects joining the team, some of the top young coaching minds and adding a solid right fielder to the playoff team. Stupid, horrid White Sox.

I'm not sure why the 6 pitchers in the rotation would be a bad thing. I think the bullpen is SO good you don't need Crochett/Kopech in it...or rather you treat them like the 5th starter and the long reliever...except they ONLY pitch on that fifth day. It's a bit unusual but you get to stretch each of them out...aim for each of them to become a regular starter in 2022...they learn the habits of being a starter without the arm strain of a heavy load. I think they may delay this until May to get the additional year from Kopech and it's that window where Rodon and Reylo try to prove they are worth something.

Frustration is premature. I think it is clear that the White Sox have a plan and its execution has not been flawless...but nearly. Last year they signed Keuchel and Grandal...and brought up Robert, Madrigal, Foster, Heuer and Crochett...and they went to the playoffs. This year they got Lynn, Hendricks and Eaton and will bring up Kopech and Vaughn. And what you and others are angry about...not pushing all the chips in now...I think is an asset...they have kept their power dry. We have only traded one of our top 30 prospects and really haven't spent much money. JR, in spite the propaganda, had top five payrolls in the 2000's, 1990's and 1980's WHEN the teams were good. Why would we believe he won't do it again? Our tradeable assets aren't worth what they should have been because of COVID...a year ago we thought of the Rutherford, Adolfo and Lugo at least one was going to have a leap forward year...and then there was no season. Same can be said for all of the top 30...there will be at least ten of them that will be worth much more at the trade deadline than they are right now. As for the missed opportunities...What happens if Cease is great...and Kopech is great...and we just spent all of our Gio extension money on Bauer...who in my mind has some real questions. Why sign Springer who you would have to pay the centerfielder premium for...when you want to play him in RF? Why pay for Brantley or Cruz when Vaughn could be better than either. Let's watch how the things evolve and then at the trade deadline you can push in the chips when you have a better idea the REAL weaknesses...and if you see none...you extend guys.

There's a time to be negative. The organization has put together a really solid rebuild plan that produced a playoff team last year and then in the off season traded for a CY Young candidate, signed a Cy Young candidate and a solid RF, hired a hall of fame manager, put together a staff of some really bright young baseball minds, are bringing up 3 of the top 50 minor league prospects...and by the looks of twitter or Soxtalk this is the dark ages. At some point you stop bitching about what was and start getting excited about what is coming (though in fairness Stone's tweet was a bit nasty).

He's averaged a 5 FIP, mostly while pitching in the National League, the last four seasons. If the argument is to get the 2016 version of Teheran...OK. But I don't think it's really hard to find a guy with a 5 FIP if all of our other options fail. In fact I'm pretty sure that if the options fail they will trade for a serious pitcher at the trade deadline. And obviously Rodon is a very high risk...they signed him for nothing after no one wanted him...but I gave you a pitcher with a very similar history and profile to Rodon that went on after losing two full seasons to injury to become a very good pitcher. I'd challenge you to find someone that fits the 30+ year old righty with 4 years of 5 FIP that goes on to be very good pitcher.

Stupid like Tampa Bay does it? Seems like a fifth starter being a reliever game is an intriguing concept...how does Kopech and Crochett get stretched out like a starter? 3 innings by each over 30 starts would likely be about 80 innings (some missed starts or short outings). And who wouldn't want tickets to those games? 100 mph from the left for three and 100 from the right for three? That would be so much fun.