michelangelosmonkey

Wow that was fun to watch. Can you imagine how crazy our lineup is going to be next year? The first six...TA, Eloy, Robert, Abreu, Grandal and Moncada...each capable of hitting 30+ home runs...and then the period where the pitcher gets to rest...the 7-8-9 spots with Vaughan with his elite batters eye, Eaton with his career .360 OBP and Madrigal who never strikes out and hit .340 as a rookie. I think Eaton is going to be a fun addition to the team.

Nobody outside of JR's inner circle really knows...we are just speculating. But we do know that they TOLD us the money would be spent. And we do know for sure that the team had two really great runs in the last thirty years. That team in the mid 90's and the team in the mid 00's. Each time, for about a five year period when the White Sox were really good, the White Sox payroll was top five in baseball. In the 90's it was $55 mill. In the 00's it was $120's. Each time JR paid. It's inarguable that after those great teams began falling apart JR cut the payroll...we dropped to 26th in 2000 at only $31 mill when the team was transitioning. I'm sure prenatal Soxtalk was saying that "JR is cheap...he will never spend again....to get to a top five payroll he'd have to spend $120 mill and its just never going to happen" and yet six years later the team was good and we were again in top 5. So outside of the counter evidence...that JR hasn't spent during the rebuild (Something they basically told us) I feel good about them spending.

From 2006 to 2011 White Sox were in top five payrolls 4 times. What evidence is there they wont do it again? Maybe they just dont see Springer and Bauer as special enough

Why is it not possible that the White Sox have $150 million to spend on pitching and they want to spend it on extending Lynn for 22-23 and then Gio 24-27? I'm not sure that isn't better than Bauer...and I'm a bit cautious about the Cleveland pitching fairy dust...do they send that along with the signing? You also suggest that it's possible that Kopech, Crochet, Cease, Kelly, Thompson, Dahlquist, Lopez, Stiever, Lambert, Flores, Pinklington could all flame out...yet Dunning is a sure thing?? I'm not sure if you listed those pitchers in the terms of likely WAR over the next 6 years that Dunning would be in top five. We had to give SOMETHING for a top ten pitcher signed to a team friendly contract. Dunning seems about fair.

Man you must have a masters degree in negativity. I get that you don't like the 2020 Sporting News GM of the year...and you hate the White Sox as a general rule. But come on man...this roster that Hahn has built is filled with budding stars at almost every position...they have a low payroll with room to upgrade and the future has never been brighter. To this Hahn adds, by almost every measure, a top ten pitcher in all of baseball in exchange for a player dealt from an area of massive organizational strength...young pitchers...and of the dozen dynamic young arms Dunning was the oldest and with the least dazzling stuff. From THIS data you manage to write a 10,000 word dissertation that Hahn sucks and this is likely to be a "hahn special" because...1) The team is over rated. 2) Lynn isn't very good because the last 300 innings where he earned 10 WAR are an illusion and we should probably also ignore the fact that in 9 years he's pitched 1500 innings with a FIP of 3.64 and nearly 3 WAR per year and instead focus on that horrible last game he pitched. 3) Dunning is AMAZING based on his 34 innings of 4 FIP at the major league level and will leave a "gaping" hole?? 4) Cease, Kopech, Lopez, Kelly, Crochet, Stiever, Dahlquist, Thompson, lambert, Flores and Pinklington are trash are unlikely to fill the hole that Dunning's departure leaves. This is just rantings. Did Hahn run over your dog or something?

Dude...peace. Lay down the guns. We are all White Sox fans. I did say you were too stupid to argue with...I'm sorry. You are exactly the right amount of stupid to argue with.

Your Sox optimist club is growing!! I have to say I don't love not getting Springer...mostly I'm mad that they didn't get Bryce Harper a couple of years ago...still I SEE the plan. I think it all makes sense as part of a long term strategy that has brought us to a pretty good spot today. This narrative that the White Sox are cheap is just not true...from 2006 through 2011 they had a top five payroll four times. JR doesn't spend when it doesn't make sense...and I get that the rebuild was painful...but now that it makes sense to rebuild you don't have to race into the game and through money at the first pretty face. A top five payroll today would be $175 million. We are at $100 million. Lynn and Eaton are bridges to 2022 without us busting the budget. This allows us to get to the trade deadline and if the Brewers or the Phillies are floundering again...we absolutely have the budget to get Harper or Yelich and really not much more money on their remaining contracts than Springer is demanding. Financially flexibility going forward is a BIG advantage and we didn't use it up while getting two very useful pieces for 2021. This should be loved.

I have never put a laugh emoticon on your comments or any. If you want to debate a point you need to be clearer...I get frustrated because in the past I laid out with lots of details my arguments and you come back with a lot of words condemning me. Come on...peace...you have some good thoughts but I am not the only one that you have gotten nasty with.

Ohmigod you are such a dick. I responded to what you said...sorry if I didn't respond to what you clearly meant (???)...in most arguments with you it is hard to tell the difference. My humble counterpoint if you would care to try to eliminate the dickness...was that adding one of the top pitchers in baseball probably will help us in the playoffs. Having Vaughan, Eaton and Madrigal as our 7-8-9 hitters will drive pitchers crazy with their bat control and .360 OBP. That might help in the playoffs over automatic outs last year of Mazara and EE. If you want to talk baseball I'm happy to. If you want to trade insults...that's fun too.

It's just the next tab over in FutureSox talk...but here it is again. IT's worth it to dig into the guys archive to find the full podcast he did on Crochet (admittedly before the arm injury). Part 1 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/farm-system-rundown-chicago-white-sox-part-1/id1525225214?i=1000500861174 Part 2 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/farm-system-rundown-chicago-white-sox-part-2/id1525225214?i=1000501041449

It was f It was fun to hear him gush about Crochet...the idea that we could have a lefty/righty combo of Crochet/Kopech that each has stuff as good as Sale?? I also think the reason the Sox traded Dunning is because they think Stiever is Dunning but younger with better stuff. The future is bright.

I think this is one of the best points in the thread...we NEED a bridge to the future...this team is good enough to win right now and we have amazing young pitching talent. A year from now, assuming a normal minor league season...and with this hot shot new pitching coach...we will know what Cease, Kopech, Stiever, Kelly and Crochett really are. I just listened to a prospects podcast going crazy about how good Crochett is...and Kopech might be better. It's possible that by 2022 our rotation will be filled with dynamic arms...but today, right now, for 2021 we need a big time arm because the rest of the team is ready. Lynn is exactly the guy we should be looking for. AND we've kept the powder dry. We are still sitting on a big pile of money that we can shove in at the trading deadline...or next offseason when we see more clearly where the weaknesses are.

I'm sure you are a charming person in real life but here on Soxtalk you seem to be a dick to everyone. Still...that's fine. Dick away. But...we just added a guy who's been one of the ten best pitchers in baseball over the last two years and one of the leaders in innings pitched...and a left handed hitting RF who has a career .360 OBP to a team that WAS A PLAYOFF TEAM last year...and you say if we add another piece only as good as Q we won't be good enough to be a playoff team? WHAT???

To be fair this is his exact quote"If you can't spot the fastball you have no chance..." And to be fair i wasnt comparing Cease to Nolan Ryan except in rebutting the argument that young pitchers who cant spot their fastballs are doomed.

So are you ready to say RH = genius?

Examples of hall of fame pitchers that at a young age "cant spot their fastball so they have no chance"...seems relavent.

Exactly...Reylo's about to turn 27 and has 500 MLB innings. I'm ok saying that one didn't work out. They don't all work out. But we are so quick to give up on people...we don't ever talk about Stiever on here anymore...he of the 10 K's and 2 BB's per 9 in the minors, our number 5 prospect...after his MLB debut people were saying they wouldn't trade him straight up for Lance Lynn...and then he got shelled against Cincinnati and now we want to throw him in as the third piece in a trade for Darvish. Soxtalk needs therapy.

Of course I would take it...the range of outcomes are all over the place. Still...the Packers had Brett Favre for 16 years and won one SB and lost another...their GM said they were just a fart in the wind. Patriots had Brady for 19 years and won 6 Super bowls and lost 3. If you are about to embark on a run would you take the Favre run? Of course...but you HOPE for the Brady run. I don't think it's crazy to think that in ten years baseball fans will be HATING the fucking White Sox and all their smug glory. I don't want to be the team in ten years that looking back ESPN forgot they won another WS and had some competitive teams

I keep hearing this narrative that "if you can't spot your fastball you have no chance..." Dylan Cease at 24 is averaging 5 walks and 9 strikeouts per 9 and has pitched 131 innings. Randy Johnson at 25 averaged 5 walks and 7 strikeouts in 190 innings. At 24 Nolan Ryan averaged 6 walks and 8 strikeouts with 400 innings pitched. Curt Schilling at 24 averaged 5 walks and 8 strikeouts. At 23 Giolito had 5 walks and 7 strikeouts after a couple of hundred innnings pitched. Jack he's JUST getting started. He has GREAT stuff. Kopech and Crochett and Kelly are going to frustrate you too...kids with big arms sometimes take time to control it.

I don't think people are arguing that the Cubs run was short...the Cubs had a very nice run. Very nice. In fact if you look at the Cubs core positional players 25 and younger in 2015 they were every bit as good as the White Sox talent in 2020. The difference between this team and that team is that we have a dozen very exciting pitchers that are 25 and younger AND we haven't spent big yet on free agency. So if you are telling me that given where the White Sox sit right here...you would take four more playoff appearances and a WS win and then go back into the rebuild I think you are selling short. I think this team has the potential to make an historic run and we just need a LITTLE bit more patience. Trade deadline 2021 is when we hit the accelerator hard.

Lots of talk about Blake Snell and Trevor Bauer and the greatness that they will be if we trade or sign them. It does seem like 4 of the last 5 WS winners got a star pitcher to push them over the top. The problem is...is it not possible that we are equating the top guys currently available to the players in deals that Houston made for Greinke/Verlander or the deal that Washington made for Scherzer, or Jon Lester with the Cubs or Chris Sale/David Price with the Red Sox. Each one of those guys had a WAY better five year track record than S or B. We have to be careful with our assets and in this case our assets are a "$200 million contract" and the three prospects people want to throw into a trade...is now the time? Are either of these guys the answer? I know it's an unpopular opinion but...why not keep our powder dry until the All Star break? Sign Quintana to get you to the ASB while seeing if Cease, Lopez, Kopech and Dunning with a new pitching coach could take a big step this year. The window is open but that doesn't mean we have to go all in this second.

I didn't remember it either...but Baseball Reference lists his DWAR as -11 for his career and at 9 years of -1 DWAR. Other measures I'm sure.

Eloy has basically played one full season (177 games). He's 23 years old. The idea that he can't ever improve defensively from his rookie season seems ridiculous. He also hit 32 doubles and 45 home runs in his first 177 games...I think he'll get better offensively too. Magglio was a pretty terrible defensive outfielder and still managed to put up a bunch of 5 WAR seasons. We need to stop surrendering at the first sign of resistance.

People that love Madrigal--Rankings--40 by MLB Pipeline, 48 by Baseball America, 41 by Fangraphs ,13 on Baseball Prospectus...Longenhagen, USA Today baseball, Rotowire, FutureSox, college scouts, minor league scouts, White Sox management. People that hate Madrigal...Keith Law (hates all White Sox players) Soxtalk (hates all white sox players).

Yes...but the point is still interesting. Phillies spent a ton of money on free agents the last three years, lost a fortune this year and the free agents didn't get them close to where they wanted to be...with Braves and Mets in same division and parts of a good core...maybe they try a rebuild aimed at three years from now which would make them interested in three White Sox high potential 20 year old pitchers. If we want to "vulture" a team...and a contract...might the Phillies not be interesting? There's something like $275 million left on Harpers contract...imagine this team with him in RF and VAughan at DH. Would it matter who pitched?