michelangelosmonkey

Sorry...I just googled "phillies troubles" and saw the first report...it was later corrected Madden's piece initially had "Phillies managing partner John Middleton told his baseball people the club lost nearly $2 billion this year." That's their entire estimated franchise value. The piece was later changed to "massive losses (reportedly $145 million)," but with no acknowledgement of the error.

That's what Bill Madden of NYT reported a week ago...quoted from one of the Phillies owners.

Lefty hitting right fielder with high OBP...Phillies reportedly lost $2 billion last year and their team has been under .500 last two years. Stievers, Kelly and Sheets for Bryce Harper. Who says no?

I gotta say...five years ago if the White Sox had hired a new analytics coordinator I would neither have known nor cared. Now I get to read ten pages about who they are, how Jerry sucks and TLR is a drunk, management favors nepotism and rapists and the rebuild is going in the trash heap. We are living in a world of wonders.

If you never found someone too stupid to argue with...that should tell you something. Enjoy your day.

Honestly you are too stupid to argue with.

Phillies were like us just a year earlier and since 2017 signed Arietta, Wheeler, Harper, McCuthchen and Santana for $630 million...and that got them two year where they were a combined four games under .500 record and now they are in a financial mess...so you'll have to explain to me the side benefits they are getting. 2016 Orioles were a young talented team that had won 89 games and gone to the playoffs and paid 160 million (not 60) for Chris Davis and he bombed and now their franchise is in ruins. Last year the Nationals "won" Strasburg for $275 million and they ended up 8 games under .500. You think the Padres spending $450 million on two players the last two years pushed them over the top? You think that won't bite them? Last year they got 4 WAR out of the two of them for $50 million. Next year they will be 28 and 31 and cost them $53 million. OK it would be fun to be the Yankees or Dodgers with their annual $250 million budget...but we aren't so we have to spend money wisely. Last year we got Grandal who is top 3 catcher in baseball...not sure why that's not a blockbuster deal. We also got Keuchel who put up 2.1 WAR for $18 million while the Yankees got the shiny penny in Gerrit Cole who put up 2.2 WAR for $36 million. I honestly think you have PTSD from the rebuild. Come on man we are White Sox fans. They had a great off season last year, the team has a ton of talent, our payroll is only $100 million for next year ($20 million less than the Padres), no really bad contracts on the books (like Meyer and Hoesner are for the Pads) and the free agent market has just begun. Don't wallow in self hatred until we see how this plays out. Enjoy the process.

I'm sorry if you have a hard time following your own argument you said "...this is exactly the time where we should be buying." I'm merely pointed out that we spent a LOT of money on free agents last year. I didn't act like it was for one big contract....but why would that matter? If you even understood poker you would understand that defraying the risks over many bets is a better strategy than going all in on one big bet. How did Anthony Rendon's $220 million contract help the Angels? Or Harpers $330 million help the Phillies...or Patrick Corbins $120 million help the Diamondbacks...or Cespedes $110 million help the Mets...or Jason Heyward's $180 mill help the Cubs or Greinke's $200 mill help the Diamondbacks or Chris Davis's $!61 million help the Orioles on and on and on. If your argument is the "Big" free agent gets you over the top...that is almost never true. If your argument is the White Sox never sign the top free agent...well they paid the highest contract ever for any team with Albert Belle 25 years ago and that was a mess. The White Sox are spending money sensibly and you calling them cheap belies the reality.

Interesting. So the White Sox spent $200 mill on free agent contracts last year and you stand by your argument that the White Sox wont spend on free agents because...You deny the evidence? Oh shut up? That's not how poker is played?

It seems like we did buy last year. Abreu, Grandal, Keuchal, Encarnation were all big contracts. This narrative that we are cheap and never going to sign free agents and complaining we havent signed anyone here on Nov 28th is just Sox psychosis

I don't think you can make categorical statements like that. This is chess....if they sign Bauer but keep Mazara that is not the team giving up...it's them allocating resources where they think they are more important. Maybe they think Mazara's lefty bat, improved defense and hitting potential is too good of a fit and that his 150 at bats in a Covid year is not enough to decide he's a waste...maybe they think Adolfo is closer to being ready than any of us do...maybe they think they can wait and see on Mazara until the all star break, where your minor league talent has begun to bloom enough to be more attractive in a trade. Maybe they are seeing reports that Covid will shut down fans for all of 2021 as well and money will be really tight for everyone. We don't know but if they do bring him back it will be interesting.

I think that IS the strategy. The problem is there is one Bauer and probably a dozen suitors. Like Wheeler last year you can even offer the most money and at that level there are non-money considerations. What if the Sox offer 2-$80 and someone comes in and offers 6-$200. Bauer has claimed the "one year deal" did we not try hard enough? Until the process plays out it is too early to say this isn't our plan. Still a Springer/Quintana with a trade of three 22 year old pitchers for Lance Lynn would be a nice option too.

I think when you get into the $300 million contracts there are other things that are factoring in the signing. No one really knows what was happening in those meetings but if you are trying to read the tea leaves...they absolutely signed Alsono and Jay to lure Machado...it is illogical to think they did it for any other reason. We were the Windy city competing with San Diego??? He's from Floida...his wife and him are kids...the beach looks good. It didn't work out...it was worth a shot and I think the White Sox tried their best. I'm not sure you can condemn then for trying and failing...you condemn them for not trying at all. As for sucking at sucking...how can you look at the roster right now and believe that? I'm also fine with trading youth...especially if the trade is something like Cease for Darvish as Cease will be as good as Darvish in two years but we are ready to compete so don't wait...and in two years Kelly will be as good as Cease is today...keep the conveyor belt going but move it two years up. That said...not Eloy...not Madrigal...no key positional parts. And spending money is way better than trading assets...for now.

Remember the Bill Veeck days? When we would have an exciting player like Richie Zisk or Oscar Gamble...and after a good year Veeck would sell them off for cash to keep the lights on. There have been MANY dark days in this franchise. The team in 1976 #1 hitter with more than 250 at bats had a .735 OPS. The home run leader had 14. The sun seems to be shining brightly and I for one am going to enjoy it.

Yeah I know...you should always be looking at upgrading your 40 man roster...always. But the time for other teams failed prospects has been the last five years. It is now time to add a REAL piece. Did you know Lance Lynn's first manager was TLR? He won a game in the WS at 24 under TLR. Dunning, Thompson and Adolfo for LL sign Springer. Set for Spring

I think the Dodgers are the best cautionary tale...we've been hearing for 10 years they have the best farm system, unlimited budget and a lot of good major league players and they have one WS win. I'm not going to die if they have a Cubs run...my only point is...don't trade Madrigal and Eloy for and $200 million in budget for a pitcher like Darvish who is one bad pitch away from the abyss. I 100% am OK with them trading Stiever and Kelly and maybe that Tatis kid for Darvish...just don't sell the family silver just yet.

Yes I'm being unrealistic as are you. You don't know the future...I don't know the future. For you to categorically say that the best we could possibly hope for is one WS and four more playoffs in the next five years before having to rebuild is nonsense. At no point in my life have the White Sox assembled this much talent. Luis Robert's upside is Ken Griffey Jr...of COURSE his downside is out of the league in two years. Vaughan's upside is Frank Thomas of COURSE his downside is never making it. There has never been a White Sox 2b where I thought...hmmm...his upside is Rod Carew...of course he could be nothing. Moncada put up a 5 WAR at 24. Eloy at 23 has hit .280 with 45 homer runs in 175 games. Tim Anderson...at 27 has hit .330 with 28 homers and 40 doubles in the last 170 games. Sure you can say this core is no better than the Cubs core of 2015 that included Rizzo, Russel, Castro, Baez, Schwarber, Soler, Bryant all 26 or younger....and they WERE an amazing core...and they had a GREAT run. But what the Cubs didn't have is a dozen exciting young pitchers all younger than 26. Please tell me again that Cease, Kopek, Gio, Crochett, Kelly, Dunning, Stiever, Lambert, Lopez, Thompson, Pinklington and Dahlquist...is just a normal collection of young starting pitchers. If you can't see the POTENTIAL for elite pitching, elite hitting and elite defense in this group. Fine. My view of the future is WAY more fun than yours.

Cali...say it ain't so. You too? Not THIS team. Not THIS talent pool. This is the wrong time to race for a ring by trading key pieces. In 1971 the Oakland A's had 25 Year olds CF Rick Monday, RF Reggie Jackson, C Dave Duncan, Catfish Hunter, 24 year olds RP- Rollie Fingers, C Gene Tenace and RF Joe Rudi 21 year old VP ida Blue. They got swept out of the playoffs that year. You think there weren't A's fans saying...let's trade our back up catcher Gene Tenace (35 WAR in the next 7 years) and failed relief pitcher Rollie Fingers who's K/9 was less than 7 that year and had less than one WAR a year for his first three years (future WS MVP, CY young winner, MVP winner, Hall of famer) to Baltimore for 29 year old 22 game winner and total workhorse Pat Dobson? Or trade hot dog Reggie Jackson who is a below average defensive outfielder and struck out 161 times (39 WAR next 7 years) and minor league catcher Jim Sundberg (18 WAR next 7 years) for 25 game winner Mickey Lolich, #2 in CYA...who was really good for two more years. In the next four years the A's went to the playoffs 4 times and won three world series...and then their idiot owner sold all their players. That could have been one of the greatest runs in sports history. I think that is us right now...and yes...the White Sox chartered plane could crash...bad things happen. But generally your pool of talent is like the White Sox in 1993...25 year old Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura, 23 year old Alex Fernandez and Wilson Alvarez and 22 year old Jason Bere and then older pieces. That's six guys under 26 and I was SO excited about that team. We have fifteen. There is still time to settle for the good team run...but when you have a shot at a super team run don't you have to go for it??

He looks like Palka....four out of five years he's had a negative dWar. .220 hitter that doesn't walk but hits a ton of home runs. Why does ANYONE want that?

It's been five years of shopping in other people's dumpsters. My god if the DIamondbacks don't want him why do we?

Sitting where we are sitting right now...the Cubs run is your upper limit? 4 more years of play offs in the next five years, one WS appearance and then rebuild again? We have twenty very exciting players that are 26 or less. Sure I would take it...but as the floor not the ceiling. The question is how do you reach the ceiling and I think its way too early in the process to start trading Madrigal or Eloy for some flashy pitcher. For this year you spend money only, you sign Springer and Quintana...or Bauer and nothing...and then be patient.

I guess my point is that I don't want to be that "really solid team" that gets there every year but isn't really good enough to beat a super team. I want to be that super team. Do you really think Darvish gives us a better chance to win WS in 2022-23-24-25 than Cease-Kopech-Crochett fulfilling their promise? He sure gives us a better chance of winning in 2021but I don't think we are ready to beat the Dodgers in 2021. The core of the White Sox...Madrigal, Moncada, Robert, Eloy, Vaughan, Gio, Kopech, Crochett, Cease, Dunning, Foster, Heuer are 26 or younger...not even in their prime years yet...why are we pushing all chips in at this point? Seems like we have a much better idea a year from now how to hit the gas...and our young assets will be better defined.

What I don't want is to be the Cubs...one WS and a real good half decade and then standing again on the precipice . I want this team to be a juggernaut and part of that is not trading away key positional pieces before the soufflé has risen. The fun part of the White Sox right now is people saying "Eloy might be the best hitter on the team" and I think...well...yes but Robert might be...or Moncada or Vaughan...I mean those are four hitters that could be the greatest hitters the White Sox have had in our lifetimes (Excluding Frank Thomas who was an alien). And that doesn't even count Tim Anderson...who in his last 172 games has hit .333 with 28 homers, 43 doubles and stole 22 bases...at SS...or the rookie 2b that hit .341, or the reigning MVP...or the second best catcher in baseball. Plus...we have a DOZEN very exciting starting pitchers that are 26 or younger. Stiever was our top 5 prospect...came in his first ML game and looked amazing and we were all excited...then he got shelled the next game and we never talk about him again???? I say sign Springer who will make our offense and defense elite. Sign Quintana for cheap and then let Cease and Kopeck and Dunning and Stiever and Crochett and Lambert and Lopez and Kelly and Dahlquist and Thompson with the new hot shot pitching coach fill in four and five. There's a very real possibility that three of those 10 will be better than Darvish or Woodruff by 2022...and we are set to be the 1970 Cincinnati Reds.

I hate that so many posters want to trade Madrigal. Fangraphs talks about 2b being one of the worst positions for talent in MLB right now. We have a guy that looks like he could be a 4 WAR per year guy and we want to get rid of him to take on an enormous salary? It seems to me the thing the White Sox have lots of depth in is young exciting pitchers. If you set the cut off at 26 years...we have Giolito, Cease, Kopeck, Dunning, Lopez, Crochett, Stiever, Kelly, Thompson, Dahlquist, Lambert and Pinklington. I count a dozen really exciting young pitchers. All are either on our current roster or top 30 prospects and all starter potentials (lots of good young relief arms too). Why would the Cubs not want to trade Darvish and his salary for three guys like Stiever, Kelly and Lambert? Sort of like the package we sent got for Eaton...though Eaton was cost controlled position player. I should think you can package three of these arms to a lot of teams that want to dump salary and rebuild for the future. For the Sox...you get one sure thing for three future things.

There are two sides to most arguments...protest or protest but not during something we hold sacred like the anthem, rally for a pro police demonstration or call the police bullies, support a tough love prison policy or advocate for leniency....I remember back in the day we could actually discuss these things and intellectually understand the other side. Now we call one side of the argument "racists" and then smugly walk away. "Racist" used to be the worst thing you could call someone...now it just means "the half of the population that disagrees with me". We are stumbling towards the abyss.