michelangelosmonkey

I agree. I understand the desire to push the chips into the middle of the table...it's been a rough few years and 2020 was exciting. I just think we could be on the cusp of a super team...and if you look at the recent WS champs it looks like you NEED a super team to win the WS. I don't think it is a stretch to see Madrigal as a 4 WAR player for the next 7 years...at 2b where fangraphs talks about it being one of the thinnest positions in baseball. I love the idea of him batting second...and Tim Anderson stealing 70 bases. They would drive other teams crazy...Madrigal never striking out and having the bat control to foul off a thousand pitches and the pitcher having to throw over to first to keep TA close...and then you have legendary lumber after that. Madrigal just seems to fit too perfectly into this team to trade him now. We all need patience.

Gregarious has put up 1 WAR combined the last two years and is 30. Schoop has put up 1.5 WAR per year for three years...and he's 29. La Stella has put up 4 WAR in his CAREER and he's 31. DJ is going to make BANK this off season. Wong got cut because he was set to make $12.5 million and COVID year. Cesar Hernandez has put up 1.5 WAR per year for the last three years and he's 30. So if your argument is there are a bunch of replacement level 30 year old 2b out there...agreed...they can easily get us half the WAR of Madrigal for $6 million more per year. All the guys you named outside of Wong and DJ were worth less in WAR than Yolmer the last three years. I don't want Sanchez back at second...I want a super team...and I think Madrigal helps us build to that more than anyone out there (cost + potential WAR).

I'm not arguing that Madrigal will hit a lot of home runs...you argued that he would be a 2 WAR player for 7 years and that wasn't that big of a deal. I'm arguing a bunch of data points of 2b who hit few home runs and put up 5 WAR. But let presume that you are right and Madrigal never hits more than a homer every 100 at bats...so 6 per year. Wong averaged .261 with 10 home runs. The difference between 10 and 6 home runs is 16 bases. Add 16 singles to Wong's batting average and that means Madrigal would have to hit .292 for his career and he would be Wong, right? Again...Card sources say he is their best infielder in 30 years. Add another 20 singles per year (.330) and if Madrigal gains some strength, and improves his defense (Longenhagen praised his defense, ZIPS said he would be a great defender...30 nervous games and Soxtalk says he won't) he's a 4 WAR guy for 7 cost controlled years. It doesn't matter where you add 4 extra WAR but it seems cheap and easy to just keep Madrigal.

OK...I'm the Rod Carew guy...sorry he comes quickly to mind because he had a unique skill set of hitting singles and playing 2b. How about DJ LeMahieu 2016 Rockies 11 HR's (In thin air of Colorado) 11 for 18 stealing bases and put up a 5.8 WAR? Kolton Wong last year in STL had 11 homers and 5.2 WAR playing 2B. Both of those were guys in their late 20's...full grown men...not 23 year old Madrigal. You think Madrigral can't put together a string of those kind of years (like Carew did)?? Last year Rougned Odor was 15th ranked 2b (by OPS) and put up a 0.0 WAR...so there is a BIG difference between a run of the mill second baseman and a 4 WAR guy. I don't think it's crazy talk to think he has a career as good as LeMahieu and he's averaged about 4 WAR per year for the last 7 years and only one year hit more than 15 home runs. So you have a cost controlled 2b that does exactly what you want him to do...hit a lot of singles, field, run, be a smart player. The idea that if we trade him we just pick up a Kolton Wong...according to Cardinals site Wong is the best middle infielder they've had in 30 years and that it was insanity for them to let him go...they cut him because he was going to cost $12.5 mill, is 30 and Covid. If we trade Madrigal we are far more likely to have someone like Sanchez as our 2B and why, oh why, do we want that??

Honest to god soxtalk is the dumbest fan site ever. We draft a kid fourth overall who hit .360 in college. stole 39 out of 45 bases...stuck out 20 times in his last 400 college at bats who then went, at 22 and hits .340 in Birmingham where all bats go to die...then hits .340 at 23 in his first 29 major league games...and I have to defend my excitement?? Harold's LL saw some games on television and condemns this 23 year old as a finished...worthless product? Fathom comps him to Darwin Barney? Why do so many of the Soxtalk regulars hate the White Sox?

In 1972...at 26...Rod Carew at 2B had a .379 slugging percent...had a .318 batting average...stole 12 bases...and put up a 5 WAR. I can see that for Madrigal...those of you wanting to trade him because he has no power...go look at Carew...elite bat control, good fielder, fast....never hit 15 home runs in a season but averaged a 7 WAR for 7 years.

I always thought it was funny, as a kid, that all my history textbooks said Andrew Johnson was the WORST US president. And yet during his presidency he added Alaska which I think was probably one of the ten greatest things to happen to America. Maybe it was all Seward but still...happened on his watch so he should have gotten some credit for it.

Yes states can do whatever they want...but it doesn't eliminate the EC. They just partition their electoral votes to the EC in their own way.

Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Alaska, N and S Dakota, Alabama, Kansas, Oklahoma, Utah, West Virginia, Nebraska and Arkansas. Amendment blocked. But it was fun to think about Cole pitching next to Giolito.

Poppysox I appreciate your willingness to enter the Octagon in a Soxtalk political forum that seems like the loudest voices are the other side. To me the most surprising thing is the 4 year temper tantrum that started the minute Trump was elected. Obama was elected and was handed the Nobel Peace prize and Trump was elected and the impeachment hearings started ten minutes later. 90% of all media articles about him have been negative. I mean the guy brings a lot of it on himself...but to expect a NY ego maniac to turn the other cheek like Bush did? They punch he punches back they punch back he punches back...for four years. It's exhausting but really he did some remarkable things in his presidency...Prison reform bill, Peace in the Middle East, the Great American outdoors act, elimination of the Obamacare individual mandate, right to try act, the Tax bill...which was really a fascinating restructuring of tax code (making most deductions irrelevant), getting Nato to pay more, starting the troop withdrawal from Germany, first president in 50 years that didn't get us in a war, standing up to China...which...I've been in International business for 30 years and China are ashholes. Anwar, Keystone, Moving embassy to Jerusalem, a booming economy...right up to Covid, 3 supreme court justices, record number of Federal judges appointed, massive cuts in regulation. You can disagree with what he did. But in the background when the chaos was going on...a lot was done.

The problem with arguing about the electoral college is it was like arguing about the White Sox signing Gerrit Cole last year. It may be fun or get passions burning...but it's not going to happen. To amend the constitution requires 3/4 of the states to agree. You want to change the system where the bottom 1/3 of the states lose power...but they have to vote to agree to give up power?? Why would they do that? Sure some might but you'd need 38 out of 50 states. I'm pretty sure I can find 13 states that won't vote yes to this in 100 years.

We will not. good sir, suffer through your intolerable rationality and optimism. Remember the Soxtalk mission...seek out a feel good story and beat it to death with a stick.

For the record I wasn't one of those guys screaming about cheating Hinch. I wanted Hinch. I was just pointing out that the narrative in what was supposed to be a feel good season...both nationally and on Sox talk was going to be something like "White Sox hire cheater". Of course I should have calculated that the national and Sox talk narrative after hiring TLR was going to be "White Sox hire old, racist, cheater". I need a better hobby than Soxtalk.

Phil Jackson with the Lakers?

If you want to pronounce THE Steroids manager...Barry Bonds averaged about a 10 WAR for a 9 year period where he was clearly on Roids and dominated the majors and led his team to a pennant and 90 wins a year and his manager during that time...the winningest period in his career was Dusty Baker.

Yeah I remember a few years ago when this was a hot issue. People on one side said that K was doing the kneeling for this reason or that reason. I think mind reading is stupid. I don't think TLR resorting to mind reading is one of his better moments. I don't personally think this makes him a monster...just someone with weird and stupid opinions...this is America...we used to welcome people with weird and stupid opinions. This is Soxtalk where we CLEARLY welcome weird and stupid opinions (go read RagahRagah stuff).

Right...he hit 33 home runs that year with an .806 OPS. A 3 WAR player...he wasn't the top 5 for WAR for that team. So one lesser player on roids did not win the WS for TLR like the cheating scandal did for Hinch but again...you are welcome to draw an equivalency.

There was a time a few years ago where one side said "protest against discrimination" and the other side said "protest...but please not during the national anthem". Both seem reasonable to me. Since then one has become hate speech. Can we leave this nonsense out of Soxtalk? Vaughn is replacing EE next year. Free agents on the way.

La Russa's first WS team won because of pitching...one guy with more than 25 homers. His second WS winner had one guy with over 25 homers. Clearly his 3rd WS team in 2011 was post-steroid scandal. Hinch won one WS and he was suspended for cheating. So if your position is that TLS coached some players that juiced and he knew about it (which I don't think he ever acknowledged) but he won 3 WS without his teams cheating and that is equivalent to Hinch managing a team that had a system wide cheating for which he was suspended for a year. OK.

How is it that we have reached a point in our society that having a position, one way or the other, on kneeling for the national anthem makes you a monster to half the population? I would much rather consider how TLR is going to deal with the speed on the White Sox and might we lead the AL in stolen bases next year...or what does he think about batting Jiminez or Moncado or Madrigal second.

Why do we need him "full of energy"? He's going to have a full staff and I suspect he's smart enough to know to lean on others at this point in his life. I was looking at his stats as a manager and for the White Sox he stole bases at 118% of league average...with Oakland it was 106% but for St Louis is was 92%. He adjusted his style to reflect the changes in the game. As for the players being different...I don't think humanity really changes that much. I know it's one of the narratives but Dusty Baker had the Astros within a game of the WS and he's roughly the same age and was never the manager that TLS was. I would personally have rather they take the chance on Jirchele...but he IS too young and there is something to be said for having gone through the process before. I suspect he will be on TLR's staff and then when TLR is ready to go he steps in.

Maybe I just have outrage exhaustion. People on this board hated Renteria (I wasn't a big fan). Then there was talk of Hinch and there were a flood of posts about not hiring the cheater (he was intriguing but only won with a super team that we found out were cheating). Then the White Sox hire a manager with 4 manager of the year awards, 6 pennants, 3 world series (out of three) and has averaged 87 wins over 33 years...winningest manager in history and successful at three different organizations and we are apoplectic over it?? OK he does look really old in the pictures...but we aren't asking him to dig ditches. We are asking him to control a clubhouse, make key game time decisions and work with an organization of players and coaches. Sure seems like he would be pretty good at that. Yes there are a bunch of young guys he has to manage...but a grandfather figure that is alternately stern and kind is probably something most of these players can get along with. Hahn's not giving up GM duties to him...the teams movement towards analytics isn't going out the window...everyone wants to put their personal hatred of some element of the White Sox (this is a weird board) and assume that TLR will magnify that perceived stupidity. I don't know...I don't think managers make that much of a difference but if one were to use a case study to say that they do...they would probably use TLR as exhibit A.

I agree. Grandal is underappreciated in this board. I also think that from the beginning the Sox had a Grandal/Collins plan. I think Collins spent all of 2020 playing in the Sox camp working on his game...and as I have argued often, he's only 25 and a lefty catcher with elite batting eye and power. The Sox will have Grandal catch 110 games and Collins catch 50 next year and hopefully that number flips in a couple of years. McCann just made their plan hard because he's just been so good. Someone is going to pay him top $ and the White Sox shouldn't throw excess money at a position that they are already solid at.

It's not an idiotic idea...If the idea is you want an outfield that has Engel/Robert the argument of having Engel in centerfield is sound. The problem is that I don't really think Engel is a long term answer to anything...maybe fourth outfielder. He's 29 years old with 1000 career at bats and only a .618 OPS, which is horrid. He did have a very good year...but I also think Renteria did a nice job putting Engel in favorable spots to hit. I see the positive developments you see in him and I think I've made the "why not Engel" argument. It's just...Robert is amazing in Centerfield. Having a CF with a canon IS valuable. Having a CF that can hit 35 home runs is much harder to find than it is a RF that hits 35 home runs because...you can put someone like Castellanos in RF and justify his bad defense with his good offense (Sox dodged a bullet on that one) but you cant put a Castellanos in CF. Your argument about moving Moncada...I think 2b and 3B are roughly equal value defensively and the WS had a guy they think will be great coming up at 2B. If the WS HAD a 22 year old Buxton in the system that was almost ready for the majors...well then you move Robert for the reasons you state...but that's not Engel. Engel is just a guy. And honestly...Robert is going to be a top 3 CF in baseball defensively and offensively for 10 years. Don't fix a problem that isn't there

He's already 23 years old, has already played 29 games in the majors and this is Soxtalk. There's zero room for optimism on this kid and his .340 BA and .376 OBP