michelangelosmonkey

If you want to pronounce THE Steroids manager...Barry Bonds averaged about a 10 WAR for a 9 year period where he was clearly on Roids and dominated the majors and led his team to a pennant and 90 wins a year and his manager during that time...the winningest period in his career was Dusty Baker.

Yeah I remember a few years ago when this was a hot issue. People on one side said that K was doing the kneeling for this reason or that reason. I think mind reading is stupid. I don't think TLR resorting to mind reading is one of his better moments. I don't personally think this makes him a monster...just someone with weird and stupid opinions...this is America...we used to welcome people with weird and stupid opinions. This is Soxtalk where we CLEARLY welcome weird and stupid opinions (go read RagahRagah stuff).

Right...he hit 33 home runs that year with an .806 OPS. A 3 WAR player...he wasn't the top 5 for WAR for that team. So one lesser player on roids did not win the WS for TLR like the cheating scandal did for Hinch but again...you are welcome to draw an equivalency.

There was a time a few years ago where one side said "protest against discrimination" and the other side said "protest...but please not during the national anthem". Both seem reasonable to me. Since then one has become hate speech. Can we leave this nonsense out of Soxtalk? Vaughn is replacing EE next year. Free agents on the way.

La Russa's first WS team won because of pitching...one guy with more than 25 homers. His second WS winner had one guy with over 25 homers. Clearly his 3rd WS team in 2011 was post-steroid scandal. Hinch won one WS and he was suspended for cheating. So if your position is that TLS coached some players that juiced and he knew about it (which I don't think he ever acknowledged) but he won 3 WS without his teams cheating and that is equivalent to Hinch managing a team that had a system wide cheating for which he was suspended for a year. OK.

How is it that we have reached a point in our society that having a position, one way or the other, on kneeling for the national anthem makes you a monster to half the population? I would much rather consider how TLR is going to deal with the speed on the White Sox and might we lead the AL in stolen bases next year...or what does he think about batting Jiminez or Moncado or Madrigal second.

Why do we need him "full of energy"? He's going to have a full staff and I suspect he's smart enough to know to lean on others at this point in his life. I was looking at his stats as a manager and for the White Sox he stole bases at 118% of league average...with Oakland it was 106% but for St Louis is was 92%. He adjusted his style to reflect the changes in the game. As for the players being different...I don't think humanity really changes that much. I know it's one of the narratives but Dusty Baker had the Astros within a game of the WS and he's roughly the same age and was never the manager that TLS was. I would personally have rather they take the chance on Jirchele...but he IS too young and there is something to be said for having gone through the process before. I suspect he will be on TLR's staff and then when TLR is ready to go he steps in.

Maybe I just have outrage exhaustion. People on this board hated Renteria (I wasn't a big fan). Then there was talk of Hinch and there were a flood of posts about not hiring the cheater (he was intriguing but only won with a super team that we found out were cheating). Then the White Sox hire a manager with 4 manager of the year awards, 6 pennants, 3 world series (out of three) and has averaged 87 wins over 33 years...winningest manager in history and successful at three different organizations and we are apoplectic over it?? OK he does look really old in the pictures...but we aren't asking him to dig ditches. We are asking him to control a clubhouse, make key game time decisions and work with an organization of players and coaches. Sure seems like he would be pretty good at that. Yes there are a bunch of young guys he has to manage...but a grandfather figure that is alternately stern and kind is probably something most of these players can get along with. Hahn's not giving up GM duties to him...the teams movement towards analytics isn't going out the window...everyone wants to put their personal hatred of some element of the White Sox (this is a weird board) and assume that TLR will magnify that perceived stupidity. I don't know...I don't think managers make that much of a difference but if one were to use a case study to say that they do...they would probably use TLR as exhibit A.

I agree. Grandal is underappreciated in this board. I also think that from the beginning the Sox had a Grandal/Collins plan. I think Collins spent all of 2020 playing in the Sox camp working on his game...and as I have argued often, he's only 25 and a lefty catcher with elite batting eye and power. The Sox will have Grandal catch 110 games and Collins catch 50 next year and hopefully that number flips in a couple of years. McCann just made their plan hard because he's just been so good. Someone is going to pay him top $ and the White Sox shouldn't throw excess money at a position that they are already solid at.

It's not an idiotic idea...If the idea is you want an outfield that has Engel/Robert the argument of having Engel in centerfield is sound. The problem is that I don't really think Engel is a long term answer to anything...maybe fourth outfielder. He's 29 years old with 1000 career at bats and only a .618 OPS, which is horrid. He did have a very good year...but I also think Renteria did a nice job putting Engel in favorable spots to hit. I see the positive developments you see in him and I think I've made the "why not Engel" argument. It's just...Robert is amazing in Centerfield. Having a CF with a canon IS valuable. Having a CF that can hit 35 home runs is much harder to find than it is a RF that hits 35 home runs because...you can put someone like Castellanos in RF and justify his bad defense with his good offense (Sox dodged a bullet on that one) but you cant put a Castellanos in CF. Your argument about moving Moncada...I think 2b and 3B are roughly equal value defensively and the WS had a guy they think will be great coming up at 2B. If the WS HAD a 22 year old Buxton in the system that was almost ready for the majors...well then you move Robert for the reasons you state...but that's not Engel. Engel is just a guy. And honestly...Robert is going to be a top 3 CF in baseball defensively and offensively for 10 years. Don't fix a problem that isn't there

He's already 23 years old, has already played 29 games in the majors and this is Soxtalk. There's zero room for optimism on this kid and his .340 BA and .376 OBP

So your argument is...Hahn should make good decisions not bad decisions and if he does this consistently over time the team will be good? And I had to wade through your insults for that? It sure seems to me that Hahn has a process, he's following the process and the White Sox now have more talent than I can ever remember them having.

Just so we are clear...Hahn's record on free agents, excluding Abreu, Robert, McCann, Keuchel and Grandal is bad. OK you can go back to your narrative.

I'm not being sanctimonious...I'm just suggesting that hiring someone right now that has a stink on him could be problematic for the "feel good story". You can think the same thing holds for TLR but I don't think the baseball community thinks that and if you can quickly transition to JJ...well why would he be a worse choice than AJ? AJ performed great when he had a super team...does that make him a super coach? JJ knows almost all the players as he coached them all in the minors.

Yes but Hinch has the stink of that cheating thing hanging over him and I could imagine internal discussions of "do we want to taint championships with AJ?" "We have our own AJ in JJ" "JJ not ready but we could use TLR as transition which would be a feel good story" and "It would make the old man happy and TLR DOES have winning baseball experience." Honestly I think it's the most sensible solution...I like the idea of AJ but seems like a lot on the board hate him. Plus...JJ has a really interesting track record within the organization...seems like they targeted him at 25 to be future manager...and he's done a lot of good things on that path.

I actually don't think it's puzzling. I think Hahn wants Jirschele but the organization thinks its too early for him...he's only just turned 30. I think the idea of our own AJ Hinch (who was 35 when he started managing) or Rocco Baldelli is interesting but you have this race horse ready to run and giving it to a rookie jockey is risky. Bringing in TLR to mentor Jirschele and provide the transition to the manager for the next 20 years is appealing in a lot of ways. I think TLR's experience with winning, the White Sox and Jerry could be good....just as long as it's not a long term answer.

The problem with this argument is...Robert as a rookie was one of the best defensive CF's in baseball. His RZR (Revised zone rating) was the highest of any CF...meaning he gets to everything. The only real liability that he had was catching balls over the wall...but given his athleticism I feel like he will figure that out too. I like Engel but I like even more the idea of Ken Griffey, JR 2.0 gobbling every fly ball into CF for the next decade.

Wait...so if I "implore you" you will teach me? Let me get my chair. To summarize so you know where to start teaching me...to this point you have taught me: That Poker is a higher intellectual pursuit and not random outcomes determined by the flip of a card because, shut up. That the process of winning at poker is a dispassionate calculation of the odds and then wagering based on those odds (you didn't actually say that but I'm trying to help you). That even if you lose in the short term at poker while following an intellectual process, since most of the people you are playing against are dumbasses, in the long term you will win. That poker = baseball free agency (I have to use a bit of magic to make that leap but I've already forgone logic on the non-randomness of a card game so what do I have to lose at this point?). That Hahn was not following a process in free agency but was in fact...what...randomly signing people...alphabetically signing people? That the outcome of Hahn's free agency tenure of signing Abreu, Robert, McCann, Grandal and Keuchel was the result of luck...like drawing to an inside straight and having it come up five times...making those successes actual failures because his process was bad. That we need to ignore where the White Sox team is right now, talent wise, because any positive results are an illusion because...math. That I don't play poker professionally, in fact I'm probably dumb and don't win at neighborhood poker. That disagreeing with you makes me a fluff ranter. I think that's about it...so...take it away Professor.

I think this is where we get peace. I kept looking at Avi and wanted to see a "good player" and after his big BABIP year I said..."see! see!" but it was hard to deny the math. And then when he was a free agent I thought...sign him...potential...potential. And then the Rays signed him and I said..."see! see!" smartest team in baseball wanted him. And then he left them and went to the Brewers and I heard a Wisconsin radio guy saying Avi was going to lead the team in home runs...maybe he would hit forty. And I shook my head and said...it's just an avillusion. I SUSPECT the same with Mazara but...dag nabbit...Tim Anderson went from a .240 hitter to a .340 hitter a year ago and even with high BABIP this year was even better. Sometimes it happens...sometimes it's ok to hope.

Ok I'm going to ride with The Hawk and General Custer to the Little Big Horn...it's a bright sunny day, I mean what could go wrong. The case for Mazara is he would fit in so perfectly for us if he could harness his potential. Left handed power hitting RF. If you squint a bit you can see 25 year old David Ortiz the hitter in Mazara...young players develop at different rates and Mazara was a highly thought of young player and has shown enough promise as a hitter in the majors from 21 to still have hope. His defense improved dramatically in 2020 (SSS). He won't cost a lot of money. He and Engel can make a nice platoon. Zips shows him as a 1 WAR player for 2021. We have money to spend elsewhere and if he doesn't pan out...maybe Engel does...or Rutherford, Lugo, Adolfo. 2020 was the year where we hoped one of our outfield prospects would leap forward but then Covid. We also hoped to see the true Mazara...but Covid. Most of the reasons to take a chance on Mazara in 2020 remain with us today and we can't say he's garbage based on 149 at bats in a weird year. The only thing that really changed is our contention window seems to have leapt forward and the idea of trotting out a bad position player seems wrong. Leury gives us stable mediocracy, Mazara gives us a range of potential outcomes including a nice upside. If you could get Benintendi for free would you try him? I'm not sure Mazara and Benintendi aren't the same guy....but I'm not sure they aren't just left handed hitting Avi Garcias. The largest point is...use scarce resources to try to get Bauer or the equivalent and hold off for a year hoping RF fixes itself. Alright I'm tying myself to an anthill and pouring honey on my eyes.

Explain again, Dr Poker, how the eight of hearts would be a better right fielder than Mazara. None is as smart as you but I'm working on my condescension game and its nice to learn at the foot of the master.

Hi8is it is clear you are WAY over your head on this Mazara conversation thing. Do you even PLAY poker? Fluff ranter.

I'm not exactly sure if you are spoofing me or are really this dumb. Card playing is random...there are 52 random outcomes (presuming you shuffle). Saying it is highly statistical (as opposed to lowly statistical???) just means you can make calculations on the probability of what the next card will be. Memorizing the cards played and a skill at bluffing does not make poker four dimensional chess. Still if you want to conflate your game of chance into some Einsteinian labyrinth...good on you. I laid out my arguments about Hahn and free agency in five detailed posts after the initial one that you commented on (by insulting me). If it is too troublesome for you to read so many words...I understand. I have no problem with you saying quantum physics is like darts, thoracic surgery is like marbles or building a winning sports franchise is like parchisi...this is a forum for arguments and all should be welcome no matter how crazy. But good sir...when you start calling people fluff ranters you have gone too far.

I read Bill James (the father of sabermetrics) abstracts from the beginning. One of the first things he wrote is that the difference between an all star and a journeyman is one hit a week...and that without looking at stats we can draw bad conclusions. Then again maybe we have all clouded our minds a bit by stats. It is clear that Adam Engel is a great fielder, is really fast and can hit for some power...does that extra hit a week matter so much that we exclude him? Probably the math says yes and the eyes say no. I think a Mazara/Engel combo next year would be fine...providing we sign Bauer or Stroman/Q. I liked the idea of Mazara last off season...lefty hitter with big upside. I think it is sort of foolish to completely write him off in the weird Covid year...Christian Yelich and Jose Altuve had bad years. Truth is Mazara only had 149 at bats. I'm ok with giving him another shot.

I'm trying to overcome all the typos and grammar errors (your process) to try to understand your point. It seems like your are trying to suggest that the non random process of sports talent evaluation, roster building and franchise budget constraints is the same as the mathematically quantifiable randomness of card playing which further suggests you like using big words and big concepts without actually understanding them. Still the great thing about Soxtalk is you can get all the joy out of b****ing about the idiocy of Hahn's process while I enjoy years of great play by the team he has assembled. Vive la différence