michelangelosmonkey

I'm "another one of those people" that can't even understand what you are saying (bolded part) or the coherence of your non-bolded argument. You are judging the process over the results? Kid got all the wrong answers but his process at arriving at the wrong answers is perfect so he gets an A? The White Sox have taken a path to contention and it sure seems we are talent rich now and free agency was part of that. If it makes me, and others like me, idiots for understanding that results are ALL that matters...I'm ok with that label.

I'm coming over to your side. I think actually this might be the ONE year where Bauer agrees to a one year $35m contract which I think the Sox should do. I think Bauer might go for that because I don't think the sort of 9 year $320 million deal Cole got last year is going to be available in a Covid world...at least this off season. Bauer would give us a one year window to see if the Rodon/Cease/Dunning/Lopez/Kopech/Lambert group all fighting to replace him for 2022. Still you probably will have someone like the Angels that offer him 5-$150 and at that point you walk over to your very sensible S+Q alternative. They would likely be affordable and have an upside to be very good. Still for the playoffs...who is your second ace? Seems like we would have a #1, 3 #3's and then a bunch of young arms.

I was late on the rebuild wagon. I always thought there was a WS path like the 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks (Shilling, Randy Johnson, Luis Gonzalez with a combined 27 WAR...rest of the team garbage). We stumbled into Abreu and Quintana and with Sale becoming a superstar it seemed you should be able to cobble together a playoff team. The Shields trade was the Sox gambling, needing a 4 to complete their inside straight and ended up getting a 9 which meant they had nothing. When that blew up which obviously in retrospect it did, I gave up and wanted the rebuild. Playing for an inside straight again and again is a losers path. I'm very happy with the way Hahn has played the game after that failure. Kenny always wanted the White Sox to go for it every season and made us just good enough to not get top talent in the draft. I agree the most valuable thing in any organization (in any sport) is the ability to judge talent and it sure seems like Hahn is good at that...the trades, the drafts and the free agent signings sure seem to have us on the cusp.

My only point is that Melky was not a DISASTER. Pablo Sandovar at $95 million was a disaster. Hanley Ramirez at $88 million was a disaster. Yasmany Tomas at $68 million was a disaster all in the same year as Melky's $39 for three. Melky was a roll of the dice that was arguable at the time. I'm not defending the move...I didn't like the go-for-it concept in 2014...I thought we were too far away in talent...but to keep saying that Hahn is terrible with free agents and deny Abreu, Robert, McCann, Keuchel and Grandal as "special cases" really bugs me.

Yeah I think my defense was "Abreu, Robert, McCann, Grandal, Keuchel" but you are welcome to make the counter argument of "yeah, well, shut up".

He's not getting a free pass. There are three periods I think it fair to judge him on...2013-2015 The Sale years where he was trying to put together a winner when we had Sale/Quintana. Hahn was basically a rookie GM and the "go for it" swings sure seem like KW was the back seat driver. This was also the period where the vast amount of the '$188 million non Abreu money' was spent. I'm not sure you can give him worse than a C in free agency in that time as Abreu was a great signing...and Melky, Robertson, Duke were ok. Sox just overall talent at that point of time in majors and minors just wasn't good enough to push them into contention. Period two is the "trying to lose" phase 2016-2019 and how can you fairly not give him at least a B. He signed Luis Robert in 2017 which might be one of the greatest signings ever. Now you have the "all-in" stage 2020-beyond. I'd say incomplete...but i think Keuchel was really a good pickup. I had doubts about that signing and was very disappointed we had swung and missed on Wheeler and might even have preferred Madison Bumgartner...but seems like it was the right choice. I also think Grandal was exactly what we paid for. I'd still like to see our "Bryce Harper" deal...but really, Phillies seemed a year ahead of us at the time and they've gone nowhere with Harper. Maybe the idea of spending the $300 million contract across the young core is a better move. Clearly Hahn is not perfect....Lynn would have been a great addition...Herrera HAS been terrible. But all Gm's swing and miss. I just hate the narrative that he has been a disaster because I just don't think the evidence backs that up.

Based on what? Does he also not get credit for Robert? So excluding Robert and Abreu and Keuchel and Grandal...and using the sample of the time we were tanking and assuming that in that time he was actually trying his hardest to make the team great...ok I'll agree with you. All those 1 year dumpster dive deals were terrible...except McCann but let's put him in the exclusion list too.

https://www.soxmachine.com/2019/11/08/avert-your-eyes-an-accounting-of-white-sox-free-agents-in-the-rick-hahn-era/ I suspect it is actually higher than that as this was an anti-Hahn article. I think it is cumulative WAR during their WS tenure. The numbers would be better now as Abreu has continued to be great. But when they were going for it...Melky was fine, David Robertson was good, Duke was fine. Then we went burned everything down but to judge Hahn's dumpster diving during the rebuild is idiotic.

The goal from 2016-2019 was not to improve the team...it was to fill the roster (and help improve draft position). In 2014-15 the goal was to improve the team which he did (+19 WAR 2014 from Free Agency, +9 WAR 2015). You can question the rebuild but I'm not sure sitting where we are right now you can question the results.

Staggering the amount of money spent on bad free agents??? I just looked at worst free agent signings of last decade and of the 15 shown the White Sox have zero of them. The four years 2016-2019 we averaged $15 million per year signing bad players...but while that is staggering amount of money for me...pretty much chump change for a baseball team. During that same period the Cubs were paying Jason Heyward about $25 million per year to get them 1.5 WAR.

Ohmigod...run for cover Hawk. There is a LOUD faction of Hahn haters here. With free agency please try to place all your focus on the 2016-2019 period when the White Sox were actively trying to keep payroll low and not to compete...and ignore Free agent signings like Abreau, Robert, McCann, Kuechel, Grandal as that does not fit the narrative. With trade talk the only discussion point is that we traded a guy universally thought of as the future best player in baseball for a broken down pitcher who everyone knew was terrible. When discussing Hahn's first round drafting...focus on Carson Fulmer and Jake Burger and steer away from Tim Anderson, Madrigal, Vaughan and Crochett. And when discussing managers, point out how stupid Renteria and Cooper are and that Hahn will never get rid of them because he's weak and stupid. The beast cannot be killed...so try to appease.

Maybe the plan is to bring in LaRussa with Jirschele as the bench coach to learn from the Zen master? I mean it's not the stupidest idea. I think LaRussa speaks Spanish and is good with the players, has lots of playoff experience and was always a pretty smart baseball manager. I think they love Jirschel, he's young and smart, knows most of the players from the minors and is good with analytics. They aren't ready to hand the keys to the Ferrari over to the kid with his learners permit but he shadows LaRussa for a year or two and then the Sox have their manager for the next decade. It also feels like a nicer story than bringing in Hinch...Reinsdorf gets his closure, LaRussa get a shot at a last hurrah where he had his first hurrah.

Why can't Engel be everyday RF next year? He had an .811 OPS this year , has great speed, plays great defense and he's cheap.

Fernando Tatis Jr is hitting under .200 with a .650 ops in 75 September at bats. Players slump apparently.

I know, right? I just saw in the 16 games in September Tatis, Jr is hitting .193 with an OPS under .650. And we were all saying he's good but turns out he's garbage. Or maybe, just maybe, baseball players go in slumps.

Its a nice feeling to have both our SS and 2B hitting .358.

Posted July 20 (edited) Your OPS argument is a joke. EE has a lower OPS due to his early years. Take a look at recent years and it is no contest. EE >>> Abreu. If you are so confident, put your money where your mouth is and lets wager a ban bet on it. Edited July 20 by Yearnin' for Yermin Y for Y...ready to concede???

i spent the morning arguing we should trade Dunning + for Lance Lynn. WTF was I thinking? Dunning has had two of the best "first two starts" in the majors that I can remember for any Sox starter. This team!! Next year we replace Lopez with Kopech and EE with Vaughan. How do you spell juggernaut?

Ohmigosh...it was a joke because everyone is so angry about what happened the last time we thew in a no-name wildcard in a trade for an older pitcher. I mean honestly the likelihood of Elijiah being the best player in baseball in three years is about as likely as it was for his brother. It's baseball...weird things happen.

UGH...the anti-Collins stuff is so old. How has Collins "not lived up to his potential". Are we basing that on the 30 major league at bats back in June/July of last year?? The 16 at bats this year? I think he remains a key part of their future...they won't resign McCann and he will catch 50 games a year and DH and pinch hit. He's only 25...we have to stop giving up on people.

I think it's goofy you think Collins has no value. Austin Hedges with his career .600 OPS catches 100 games a year. You think if the White Sox waived Collins other teams would shrug and move on? He had a .950 OPS in AAA last year...he's a lefty catcher...he's only 25. I still think the White Sox think highly of Collins...they just thought their window was opening and one of the best catchers in the MLB was available as a free agent and they needed to show the fan base that they are in it. As for the immortal Keith Law...it is idiotic to think Lopez has zero value. And I did not say either one of them was the key to the trade...they are the extra pieces with the hot pitching prospect as the key piece. Today Pilkington doesn't equal Dunning. My point was in two years they could be. Pilkington is 3 years younger than Dunning...and their FV today is not their actual value in two years. Some of those guys will develop...the Sox have a reasonably exciting stable of young pitching prospects. We don't know if any of them will amount to anything. We have a really good idea what Lynn will be the next year and a half.

I wonder if we are suffering from Quintana angst? Cubs in their window trade top hitting and pitching prospects for a few years of control of a hugely under rated..near great...MLB starting pitcher and then Quintana has not been good for them and Cease and Eloy look like huge building blocks for us. Will Karma eat our souls?

How is it possible that Collins has no value at all?? 25 year old left handed hitting catcher with plus power and an elite batting eye?? Reynaldo Lopez has NO value? In 2018 and 19 had 35 Quality starts, is only 26 and can throw 98. I think you spend too much time on Soxtalk where everyone that is not an immediate all star is garbage (and any all-star that has had a bad week is garbage).

I really think you can. Stiever is younger and actually higher rated than Dunning....seems like the Rangers baseball people would like that even if Dunning is a bit sexier. So go Stiever-Collins-Lopez and Tatis. My only reason for including Dunning is I think he is easier to sell to the Rangers fan base because of his recent Dunning-Mize pitch off. I actually kind of love a Gio-Dallas-Lynn-Cease-Dunning rotation for the next year and a half. Hold on I'll go call the Rangers GM.

Yes and I forgot Bernardo Flores...plus the pitchers we draft in 2021...and international signings...and guys that emerge from nowhere. My point is that it's not Dunning or bust. I think we have a lot of guys at the Dunning level. I'd be upset if we traded Kopech because I think he has special stuff. But the idea we can get someone of Lynn's quality for nothing? I think Dunning, Collins, Lopez and Elijiah Tatis would be a great package for Lynn. Rangers get two young pitchers with great stuff and upside, Collins a catcher with huge offensive upside and Tatis who in two years will likely be the best player in baseball. What do we really lose? Dunning =Stiever=Pinklington=etc. 4th starters in 2022. We can't use a ten man rotation in two years.