michelangelosmonkey

Carew played second base, averaged 6 homers per season and had a 7 year run averaging 7 WAR a season. Yes he was a legendary hitter but wasn't as good on defense as Madrigal looks to be. This idea that zero power = limited value isn't true. Yes you have to be unique but I think that has been the argument with Madrigal. He's unique.

Maybe they saw Rod Carew in Madrigal. There are superstars that are great fielders, with great speed and great bat control. Everyone doesnt have to be a masher.

Yes it seems if this is a multi year analysis Tatis obvious potential shouldn't matter.

Maybe but Tatis Jr had a really good half a season offensively and he's 6th.

Oh for fuck sake...this is what they wrote... Highest Ceiling: Vaughn Not only is Vaughn the best all-around hitter among first-base prospects, he's also on the short list of the best all-around hitters in the Minors. He could produce a .300 batting average, 30 homers and 80 walks on an annual basis. and let me be clear that would be absolutely nothing like Cody Bellinger, of the Dodgers, or Clay Bellinger of the Yankees, or minor leaguer Cole Bellinger or Orioles shortstop Mark Belanger in any way. Any similarities by Vaughn to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

It wasn't me...MLB Pipeline said Vaughn was best 1b prospect since Bellinger...maybe best hitting prospect in minors. Just saying Bellingers bat in the middle of that lineup is awe inspiring.

I thought it was clear I meant as a hitter. I wasnt talking about his FWAR...I was talking about OPS of 1.000 in the middle of that order. Its just so exciting....in the last 20 years who was our most exciting hitting prospect? In 2002 we would have been so excited about Collins the hitter...now we've got Moncado, madrigal, Jiminez, Robert and Vaughn, the batting champ and two plus- hitting vets...the potential is amazing.

Soxtalk can really suck. You get a little excited about something you read...you post it and then the howling negatives come out of the woodwork to tell you how wrong and stupid you are. Ok Vaughn isnt Bellinger...hes Frank Thomas 2.0. Better? .300 hitter with 30+ homers and 100 walks hitting in a lineup with 4 other superstars. Im gonna go dream somewhere else.

I'm saying MLB Pipeline said Vaugn=Bellinger...but with 7 years of control at almost no cost.

MLB Pipeline says Vaughn is the highest rated first base prospect since Cody Bellinger. A lineup of Robert, Madrigal, Moncada, Eloy and Cody Bellinger?? Goosebumps. Mazara and Collins could have breakthrough seasons as past top prospects and we wouldn't even notice...and poor Tim Anderson...batting champion ignored. Highest Ceiling: Vaughn Not only is Vaughn the best all-around hitter among first-base prospects, he's also on the short list of the best all-around hitters in the Minors. He could produce a .300 batting average, 30 homers and 80 walks on an annual basis.

But does he really have a low walk rate? In Cuba from age 16-18 he had 600 at bats and had 80 walks and 100 strike outs. Ok it's not American...but it is professional baseball...probably low A level? For comparison sake Jose Abreu 16-18 years in Cuba had 700 at bats, 69 walks and 88 strike outs. Cespedes had 600, 62 and 125; Yasiel Puig had 600, 69 and 88. That looks like he has a better eye than any of those good major league hitters. In the Dominican league at age 19 for the Sox he had 82 at bats with 22 walks and 23 strikeouts...short season and DSL...but still...didn't look like a disaster of a batting eye. At 20 he had the thumb injury most of the year. At 21...ok walk to strike out rate was not good but when you are hitting .330 with 70+ extra base hits...don't take a walk seems good advice.

Oh no you don't...I'm not getting beaten up by the Collins-is-a-turd crowd in another thread. But thanks...I hadnt noticed. An elite eye combined with plus power is why I was bullish on Moncada in his darkest hours a year ago and why I think we should be more excited about Collins.

Moncada had a 13% walk rate in the minors and an 11% rate after 800 major league at bats...at 23. Last year his walk rate was 7% I would think pitchers will be more cautious this year and we see 70 walks. BABIP will certainly drop but I should think strikeout rate will likely drop too. .275/.375/.525? With 30 steals.

Sorry if I don't have the same slavish belief in the infallibility of scouts as you do. How many top 100 prospects lists did Marcus Semien make? A better argument against Collins the catcher is...why did he catch 85 games two years ago, 70 games in 2018 and then 60 games this year? If the White Sox see potential...why isn't he catching all the damn time. Which I think is a pretty convincing argument. But I've also watched the WS handle him in curious ways. Why did they bring him up for a month in June-july...in a season the Sox were going nowhere and only start him in seven out of thirty games? If they don't see him as a C...why not just announce that and let him hit ? Why did they sign EE? Seems like two possibilities...one, as you and most on here thing...they recognize he's garbage and hope he can be useful as a Josh Phegly sort or two...they are grooming him for something bigger. This year will tell.

I bow to your obvious wisdom of Collins and knowledge of the future. I presented a case study...Ted Simmons, who I think is similar to Collins. TS put up 45 WAR in a 9 season stretch almost all of it with offense...his average DWAR over 21 seasons was basically 0. You countered with...what...his 30 bad at bats in June? To state categorically that Collins will not be a future hitting star because of his swing and miss issues (He hit .280 in AAA which is not helped by juiced ball or BB&T) echoes what others here said about Moncada last year at this time. Seems someone said half way through the season that he would NEVER hit above .280 in a season...except, your know, last year. What is one of Moncada's best skills...his elite batters eye, which allowed him to learn to wait for pitches he could hit. If Collins, as a lefty, can hit .275 in the majors and walk 100 times...and hit 30 homers...and be a slightly below average defensive catcher...he will be a 10 time all star. Obviously that is his ceiling. I am just bothered by the suggestion his ceiling is back up catcher and pinch hitter.

I don't think anyone seriously thinks Collins is a better prospect than Robert. Ted Simmons had a number of 5+ WAR seasons and ended up with 50+ WAR for his career...Ken Griffey Jr had a number of 9+ War season and ended up with 80+ WAR. I think the point is Collins has enormous potential if he's a catcher and while we should be excited about him so many on here (wasting our time on a second tier prospect) just think he's garbage based on Klaw's trashing (also trashed Sale) and 50 bad at bats to start his career (Robin Ventura's 56 war career began with 0-50). For the White Sox to be a dynasty having a catcher putting up 5 WAR a year for five years will be useful.

I dont understand coming to a thread titled "so what happens to Zack Collins" and then wondering why people are commenting on Zack Collins.

I don't think he's the caliber of prospect you think he is. A juiced ball doesn't help his batting average...and he hit .285 in AAA...that is the one skill everyone says he lacks offensively. And everything else at every level has been great. I never said Collins was going to be a 6 WAR player...but it's not impossible (again Ted Simmons). What we know for sure is Collins was a top 10 pick in the draft, led all of college in walks, led all the minor leagues in walks and he's 24 and a lefty and catches. We know that a keen batting eye translates positively, eventually, in the majors and power translates. You state EE was "on pace"...well there was a reason he didn't play 162 games...old gets hurt...old declines. Remember Seattle traded him to the Yankees for a bucket of balls and the Yankees let him walk this off season over money. I'm not going to shoot myself over the EE signing. I just find it curious given their other moves. To me it is as if Dane Dunning hadn't gotten hurt last year and had a stellar year in AAA and then we signed Gio Gonzalez as our fifth starter instead of risking DD starting because we are in our window.

And CF...and 2B...and a couple of the starting pitchers. They are making calculated gambles that the young guys will become stars. Even Mazara is an upside gamble that I love. But with Collins they didn't roll the dice (at DH not at catcher as I completely agree with the idea of having experienced catcher with the young pitching staff). So if one is reading the tea leaves...seems either they will make a trade with him as the centerpiece...or they will develop him to be their catcher of the future. As for the AAA talk...if the goal is to make him an MLB catcher I think sitting and learning with constant coaching and tutelage is better than repetition at a level he's mastered (hitting wise).

This falls into my theory that 2020 is going to be all about teaching Collins the art of catching. I really believe this is the truth...they are confident he will hit so don't really need him to spend time on that...and spending a year tutoring under McCann and Grandal and the major league coaches and drinking and eating catching every day is what I would do with Collins.

I did read. The problem is with projections. What were the combined WAR projections for Giolito and Moncada last year (pretty sure it wasn't +10)? What was Yonder's projected WAR last year at this time(pretty sure it wasn't -1)? Sometimes old gets old real fast and some times young and super talented breaks out and pushes you to a new level. If you told me that in 2020 one of Collins/EE had a 4 WAR...I would bet a million dollars it wasn't EE. I like the lane the White Sox chose of gambling on young talent...raising the floor by signing 37 year olds and sitting young potential stars because of projections seems like the old bad plan.

In his first 30 major league at bats he had a .400 OPS. In his next 30 he had an ops of .600 and in the final 30 he had an ops of .930. To say that he was learning and by the end was great is as absurd as saying he wasn't impressive. He was great in college, he was great in AAA last year and he has the sort of hitting skills that should translate. As for EE only being a one year deal...that was the point. Why put this potentially dynamic hitter on ice for a year so you can try to eke out another 2 WAR from a 37 year old DH? The catcher training thing makes sense...the trade makes sense...nothing else does.

The concern is last year at this time many on this board would have traded Moncada and Giolito for a box of oranges...you have to take a chance on young players. Collins had a .950 OPS in AAA last year (Basically what Robert did) and he's a 24 year old lefty with an elite batters eye and power which are skills that should translate to the majors...and instead of being given the job like Robert and Madrigal are we say "nope...too risky...let's sign this 37 year old". It seems like a weird decision in light of the other decisions...unless...they have already decided he will never be able to catch and never hit as well as Vaughan so are going to trade him or as I mentioned earlier...they see him as their long term catcher and so much of catching is cerebral and they are going to take this year to have him learn how to call a game, frame a pitch and work with young pitchers.

The problem with EE is it seems like a 2010 White Sox move. The truth is this year is VERY risky. Madrigal could bomb. Robert, Cease, Kopeck could bomb. Giolito could regress, Eloy, Timmy, Moncada. I wrote earlier that to feel like someone is a "sure thing" they need two consecutive years doing it. So that means they have a dozen question marks already...a dozen super exciting question marks and I feel like Collins is part of that. I mean it really isn't absurd to think Collins could put up a consistent .250/.375/.500 slash line as a lefty batter that has no position. What does a year of EE give you? A two WAR DH for one season for $12 million. I liked the idea of having all the prospects grow at once...still...catcher is a unique position and I think they may think that the value of forming him into a good hitting catcher dramatically out weighs the value of him being a really good DH and if that takes a year of pinch hitting and sitting at the feet of Socrates, well so be it.

It's why I was disappointed (?) with the EE signing. I think EE will be solid this year...but I think this should have been the year where the second wave got their shots. Giving Collins 400 at bats this year felt like we would have learned for sure if his bat can be as good as it has the potential to be at the same time as we are finding out about Madrigal, Robert, Cease and Kopek. After the EE move I feel like the White Sox must have a plan for Colllins...I think they are buying into the mentoring idea...that Grandal and McCann can both teach him a lot, that there is a ton to learn about how to call a game and they see the Ted Simmons potential in him. McCann is gone after this season and Colllins is only 24 with 6 years of control. They can afford to give him 20 starts at catching this year, 50 next year and then 100 the year after that. Of course the other possibility is they think he's garbage and will try to trade him now to a team that is high on him.