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michelangelosmonkey

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Everything posted by michelangelosmonkey

  1. You do know Babe Ruth was one of the best pitchers in baseball while also being one of the best hitters. This idea that he was just a slow fat guy is from the pictures of him at the end of his career. He was 6'2 215 with amazing hand/eye coordination. I think historical basketball comparisons don't work...but baseball I think you can. I also don't think the science of throwing hard is new to this age. If we are going to discount all players before the 1970's...well then its a different thing. But it does seem that if someone is 3 deviations above the mean in 1907 we can't with confidence say that in 2020 the mean is now where three deviations above was in 1907 so bring Big Ed in the time machine and he's just a guy.
  2. Allen had a 8.6 WAR in 1972 for the Sox...but I think the same for him and Belle...they only had a few years with the White Sox so can you really consider them part of your ALL TIME team? I mention Gossage who had an amazing year for the Sox as a reliever but most of his greatness was on another team...can you really include him on our team's all time list? If you went with greatest seasons ever you'd sure have Dick Allen on the team (and Wilbur Wood...who had 22.5 WAR over two year 71-72 seasons).
  3. What is realistic about an all-time team? Walsh dramatically out pitched Cy Young in 1908. He had one of the greatest seasons ever by any player. He pitched 460 innings with a WHIP of .86. I mean just because it's a long time ago doesn't mean we should ignore him as part of our team's history. Most of Ty Cobb's greatness was more than 100 years ago. Should Detroit not have him as part of their ALL TIME team because it was really just too long ago?
  4. Wait...are you being reasonable? This is SOXTALK...you make a claim and then defend it to the death in the face of all evidence. My dad loved Billy Pierce too he's not a bad choice...if I said you were an idiot for liking Scarlett Johansonn over Natalie Portman...I could support your idiocy with facts but it's really just a matter of taste. I love a bullpen of Foulke followed by Gossage with Thornton as your lefty specialist. Foulke was amazing.
  5. Honestly you can't leave Ed Walsh off the list if it's a serious list. He averaged 9+ War over a six year period...including winning FORTY games one year. He had more WAR in a six year stretch than Billy Pierce had in 18 seasons. BP was a fine player but he never got more than 2% of required HOF voting while Walsh is a Hall of famer. Thornton had 13.5 War in his career...Goose Gossage had an 8.2 WAR in 1975 for the White Sox. I can see why he's not considered a White Sox...but he came up through their system and spent five years with them...before Bill Veeck traded him rather than pay him in free agency.
  6. If you're serious about making a list you want to be objective right? You just about have to put in the hall of famers. The team has a 120 year history so it would be a bit weird to have too many from the last 20 years...especially because those were not particularly their greatest years...just the years that we remember the best. I think any serious person would put Thomas, Ventura, Fisk and Konerko on the starting list and I said by definition Baines has to be on the list as he's a HOF. That's more than fifty percent of your position players (and DH) from recent times. Dick Allen was amazing but only played three years with the Sox. If you go more than that you are denying the past. As for starters...Faber-Walsh-Lyons you just can't argue with based on WAR. Sale in a five year stretch had a 25 WAR which might be the greatest stretch in White Sox history (too lazy to check). Buerhle was uniquely great. So now you have 40% of the starters from recent times. I'm not sure you can really give the relief pitcher to Wilhelm who I don't think every pitched for the White Sox before he was forty. But ace is a weird as it wasn't really much of thing before 1970. I loved Goose Gossage...and he had a EIGHT WAR at 23 as a relief pitcher before those idiotic 70's Sox switched him to a starter and then lost him over money. The franchise has not been gloriously blessed with talent over 120 years...but half before 1970 and half after would make sense to me.
  7. This is just not true. Rod Carew average 5.7 WAR over a ten year period and Nellie Fox averaged a 4.5 WAR over a ten year period...both second basemen with similar profile. Good defense, good base running, solid single hitting is worth a lot. Not every player has to be a power hitter. However...if you are without power one better be a + defender, a +fielder and have a plus +batting average or you end up being Willie Harris.
  8. I'm not saying he's going to be Rod Carew...i'm saying that is the ceiling. Rod Carew was not a great hitter in the minors...hovering around .300 with .750 OPS in 1000 at bats. Nellie Fox was NOT a good base runner...stealing an average of 5 bases per year and being thrown out 5 times a year. Rod Carew was a much better base stealer. Nellie was a much better defensive player. Carew walked a lot more. Both were second basemen that basically hit singles (81% for Nellie, 79% for Carew, 58% for Frank Thomas for comparison sake). Best 10 year war for Fox was 4.5 per year. Best 10 year war for Carew was 5.7 per year. I think Nick will be a better defender than either. Better base stealer than Fox. Worse hitter than Carew. So I think a 10 year WAR of 5 average for his ceiling?
  9. Carew played second base, averaged 6 homers per season and had a 7 year run averaging 7 WAR a season. Yes he was a legendary hitter but wasn't as good on defense as Madrigal looks to be. This idea that zero power = limited value isn't true. Yes you have to be unique but I think that has been the argument with Madrigal. He's unique.
  10. Maybe they saw Rod Carew in Madrigal. There are superstars that are great fielders, with great speed and great bat control. Everyone doesnt have to be a masher.
  11. Yes it seems if this is a multi year analysis Tatis obvious potential shouldn't matter.
  12. Maybe but Tatis Jr had a really good half a season offensively and he's 6th.
  13. Oh for fuck sake...this is what they wrote... Highest Ceiling: Vaughn Not only is Vaughn the best all-around hitter among first-base prospects, he's also on the short list of the best all-around hitters in the Minors. He could produce a .300 batting average, 30 homers and 80 walks on an annual basis. and let me be clear that would be absolutely nothing like Cody Bellinger, of the Dodgers, or Clay Bellinger of the Yankees, or minor leaguer Cole Bellinger or Orioles shortstop Mark Belanger in any way. Any similarities by Vaughn to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
  14. It wasn't me...MLB Pipeline said Vaughn was best 1b prospect since Bellinger...maybe best hitting prospect in minors. Just saying Bellingers bat in the middle of that lineup is awe inspiring.
  15. I thought it was clear I meant as a hitter. I wasnt talking about his FWAR...I was talking about OPS of 1.000 in the middle of that order. Its just so exciting....in the last 20 years who was our most exciting hitting prospect? In 2002 we would have been so excited about Collins the hitter...now we've got Moncado, madrigal, Jiminez, Robert and Vaughn, the batting champ and two plus- hitting vets...the potential is amazing.
  16. Soxtalk can really suck. You get a little excited about something you read...you post it and then the howling negatives come out of the woodwork to tell you how wrong and stupid you are. Ok Vaughn isnt Bellinger...hes Frank Thomas 2.0. Better? .300 hitter with 30+ homers and 100 walks hitting in a lineup with 4 other superstars. Im gonna go dream somewhere else.
  17. I'm saying MLB Pipeline said Vaugn=Bellinger...but with 7 years of control at almost no cost.
  18. MLB Pipeline says Vaughn is the highest rated first base prospect since Cody Bellinger. A lineup of Robert, Madrigal, Moncada, Eloy and Cody Bellinger?? Goosebumps. Mazara and Collins could have breakthrough seasons as past top prospects and we wouldn't even notice...and poor Tim Anderson...batting champion ignored. Highest Ceiling: Vaughn Not only is Vaughn the best all-around hitter among first-base prospects, he's also on the short list of the best all-around hitters in the Minors. He could produce a .300 batting average, 30 homers and 80 walks on an annual basis.
  19. But does he really have a low walk rate? In Cuba from age 16-18 he had 600 at bats and had 80 walks and 100 strike outs. Ok it's not American...but it is professional baseball...probably low A level? For comparison sake Jose Abreu 16-18 years in Cuba had 700 at bats, 69 walks and 88 strike outs. Cespedes had 600, 62 and 125; Yasiel Puig had 600, 69 and 88. That looks like he has a better eye than any of those good major league hitters. In the Dominican league at age 19 for the Sox he had 82 at bats with 22 walks and 23 strikeouts...short season and DSL...but still...didn't look like a disaster of a batting eye. At 20 he had the thumb injury most of the year. At 21...ok walk to strike out rate was not good but when you are hitting .330 with 70+ extra base hits...don't take a walk seems good advice.
  20. Oh no you don't...I'm not getting beaten up by the Collins-is-a-turd crowd in another thread. But thanks...I hadnt noticed. An elite eye combined with plus power is why I was bullish on Moncada in his darkest hours a year ago and why I think we should be more excited about Collins.
  21. Moncada had a 13% walk rate in the minors and an 11% rate after 800 major league at bats...at 23. Last year his walk rate was 7% I would think pitchers will be more cautious this year and we see 70 walks. BABIP will certainly drop but I should think strikeout rate will likely drop too. .275/.375/.525? With 30 steals.
  22. Sorry if I don't have the same slavish belief in the infallibility of scouts as you do. How many top 100 prospects lists did Marcus Semien make? A better argument against Collins the catcher is...why did he catch 85 games two years ago, 70 games in 2018 and then 60 games this year? If the White Sox see potential...why isn't he catching all the damn time. Which I think is a pretty convincing argument. But I've also watched the WS handle him in curious ways. Why did they bring him up for a month in June-july...in a season the Sox were going nowhere and only start him in seven out of thirty games? If they don't see him as a C...why not just announce that and let him hit ? Why did they sign EE? Seems like two possibilities...one, as you and most on here thing...they recognize he's garbage and hope he can be useful as a Josh Phegly sort or two...they are grooming him for something bigger. This year will tell.
  23. I bow to your obvious wisdom of Collins and knowledge of the future. I presented a case study...Ted Simmons, who I think is similar to Collins. TS put up 45 WAR in a 9 season stretch almost all of it with offense...his average DWAR over 21 seasons was basically 0. You countered with...what...his 30 bad at bats in June? To state categorically that Collins will not be a future hitting star because of his swing and miss issues (He hit .280 in AAA which is not helped by juiced ball or BB&T) echoes what others here said about Moncada last year at this time. Seems someone said half way through the season that he would NEVER hit above .280 in a season...except, your know, last year. What is one of Moncada's best skills...his elite batters eye, which allowed him to learn to wait for pitches he could hit. If Collins, as a lefty, can hit .275 in the majors and walk 100 times...and hit 30 homers...and be a slightly below average defensive catcher...he will be a 10 time all star. Obviously that is his ceiling. I am just bothered by the suggestion his ceiling is back up catcher and pinch hitter.
  24. I don't think anyone seriously thinks Collins is a better prospect than Robert. Ted Simmons had a number of 5+ WAR seasons and ended up with 50+ WAR for his career...Ken Griffey Jr had a number of 9+ War season and ended up with 80+ WAR. I think the point is Collins has enormous potential if he's a catcher and while we should be excited about him so many on here (wasting our time on a second tier prospect) just think he's garbage based on Klaw's trashing (also trashed Sale) and 50 bad at bats to start his career (Robin Ventura's 56 war career began with 0-50). For the White Sox to be a dynasty having a catcher putting up 5 WAR a year for five years will be useful.
  25. I dont understand coming to a thread titled "so what happens to Zack Collins" and then wondering why people are commenting on Zack Collins.
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