michelangelosmonkey

I don't think he's the caliber of prospect you think he is. A juiced ball doesn't help his batting average...and he hit .285 in AAA...that is the one skill everyone says he lacks offensively. And everything else at every level has been great. I never said Collins was going to be a 6 WAR player...but it's not impossible (again Ted Simmons). What we know for sure is Collins was a top 10 pick in the draft, led all of college in walks, led all the minor leagues in walks and he's 24 and a lefty and catches. We know that a keen batting eye translates positively, eventually, in the majors and power translates. You state EE was "on pace"...well there was a reason he didn't play 162 games...old gets hurt...old declines. Remember Seattle traded him to the Yankees for a bucket of balls and the Yankees let him walk this off season over money. I'm not going to shoot myself over the EE signing. I just find it curious given their other moves. To me it is as if Dane Dunning hadn't gotten hurt last year and had a stellar year in AAA and then we signed Gio Gonzalez as our fifth starter instead of risking DD starting because we are in our window.

And CF...and 2B...and a couple of the starting pitchers. They are making calculated gambles that the young guys will become stars. Even Mazara is an upside gamble that I love. But with Collins they didn't roll the dice (at DH not at catcher as I completely agree with the idea of having experienced catcher with the young pitching staff). So if one is reading the tea leaves...seems either they will make a trade with him as the centerpiece...or they will develop him to be their catcher of the future. As for the AAA talk...if the goal is to make him an MLB catcher I think sitting and learning with constant coaching and tutelage is better than repetition at a level he's mastered (hitting wise).

This falls into my theory that 2020 is going to be all about teaching Collins the art of catching. I really believe this is the truth...they are confident he will hit so don't really need him to spend time on that...and spending a year tutoring under McCann and Grandal and the major league coaches and drinking and eating catching every day is what I would do with Collins.

I did read. The problem is with projections. What were the combined WAR projections for Giolito and Moncada last year (pretty sure it wasn't +10)? What was Yonder's projected WAR last year at this time(pretty sure it wasn't -1)? Sometimes old gets old real fast and some times young and super talented breaks out and pushes you to a new level. If you told me that in 2020 one of Collins/EE had a 4 WAR...I would bet a million dollars it wasn't EE. I like the lane the White Sox chose of gambling on young talent...raising the floor by signing 37 year olds and sitting young potential stars because of projections seems like the old bad plan.

In his first 30 major league at bats he had a .400 OPS. In his next 30 he had an ops of .600 and in the final 30 he had an ops of .930. To say that he was learning and by the end was great is as absurd as saying he wasn't impressive. He was great in college, he was great in AAA last year and he has the sort of hitting skills that should translate. As for EE only being a one year deal...that was the point. Why put this potentially dynamic hitter on ice for a year so you can try to eke out another 2 WAR from a 37 year old DH? The catcher training thing makes sense...the trade makes sense...nothing else does.

The concern is last year at this time many on this board would have traded Moncada and Giolito for a box of oranges...you have to take a chance on young players. Collins had a .950 OPS in AAA last year (Basically what Robert did) and he's a 24 year old lefty with an elite batters eye and power which are skills that should translate to the majors...and instead of being given the job like Robert and Madrigal are we say "nope...too risky...let's sign this 37 year old". It seems like a weird decision in light of the other decisions...unless...they have already decided he will never be able to catch and never hit as well as Vaughan so are going to trade him or as I mentioned earlier...they see him as their long term catcher and so much of catching is cerebral and they are going to take this year to have him learn how to call a game, frame a pitch and work with young pitchers.

The problem with EE is it seems like a 2010 White Sox move. The truth is this year is VERY risky. Madrigal could bomb. Robert, Cease, Kopeck could bomb. Giolito could regress, Eloy, Timmy, Moncada. I wrote earlier that to feel like someone is a "sure thing" they need two consecutive years doing it. So that means they have a dozen question marks already...a dozen super exciting question marks and I feel like Collins is part of that. I mean it really isn't absurd to think Collins could put up a consistent .250/.375/.500 slash line as a lefty batter that has no position. What does a year of EE give you? A two WAR DH for one season for $12 million. I liked the idea of having all the prospects grow at once...still...catcher is a unique position and I think they may think that the value of forming him into a good hitting catcher dramatically out weighs the value of him being a really good DH and if that takes a year of pinch hitting and sitting at the feet of Socrates, well so be it.

It's why I was disappointed (?) with the EE signing. I think EE will be solid this year...but I think this should have been the year where the second wave got their shots. Giving Collins 400 at bats this year felt like we would have learned for sure if his bat can be as good as it has the potential to be at the same time as we are finding out about Madrigal, Robert, Cease and Kopek. After the EE move I feel like the White Sox must have a plan for Colllins...I think they are buying into the mentoring idea...that Grandal and McCann can both teach him a lot, that there is a ton to learn about how to call a game and they see the Ted Simmons potential in him. McCann is gone after this season and Colllins is only 24 with 6 years of control. They can afford to give him 20 starts at catching this year, 50 next year and then 100 the year after that. Of course the other possibility is they think he's garbage and will try to trade him now to a team that is high on him.

The personal attacks were really out of line (I mean for humanity...perfectly in line for Soxtalk) but you seem to be confused about Zack Collins. He's really only had three years in the minors (a couple dozen games after college in 2016). He's never hit as low as .186 in the minors (if you exclude 11 at bats in rookie league) and if you really want to use batting average as a barometer (because it's his worst stat and the least interesting)...he hit .320 in college...and improved his batting average each of his three years until he hit .360 his junior year in the tough ACC. His career minor league batting average is .244 but he's improved each of his three season until last year when he batted .282 in AAA. The scouting reports on Collins in college were that he was the best college bat available, that he has an elite batting eye and plus power, but wasn't a very good defensive catcher and probably wouldn't stick at the position. I think the two proper schools of thought on Collins are...he's only 24, left handed hitter and if he can learn to be an adequate defender he could be an All-Star catcher, or he could be a very good hitter and play DH or 1B but the White Sox are stacked at those positions so if you could bundle him in a trade for something valuable do it.

Collins can back up first base, C and DH...I would have preferred them not sign EE and give Collins lots of AB's but I think they really don't want him to be a DH but their regular catcher by 2022. Catch 25 games this year, 50 next year and 100 the year after that? This year, with the added roster space they can have him work every day with Grandal and McCann to learn the art of catching.

I'm intrigued by the idea of keeping three catchers with the roster expanding to 26 and letting Collins ease into being a major leaguer. I'm ok with the idea of them giving Collins another year in AAA to exclusively work on his catching. I'm horrified at the idea of giving up on someone that has flashed elite offensive skills at a position that its so hard to find. Ted Simmons was not a great defensive catcher but starting at age 25 put up about 30 WAR in a 6 year stretch.

Just so I'm clear...you are giving up on a 24 year old left handed hitting catcher, who hit .282/.403/.538 last year in AAA who Led all of the minor leagues in walks the year before...hit .320 with over 1.000 OPS in 3 years in college and led all college players in walks who has an elite batting eye and plus power...because of 30 bad at bats in June/July? Because that seems like a stupid opinion. You also seem to hold it against him that he has a catchers body type? And think that he's....clueless? Interesting.

Thanks ...Collins could be a bust...as could Robert or any of them. Just so much negativity on him on the board. We are much closer to a WS if Collins is great than if EE is. Only way we know is to give him 400 at bats this year. This is not dissing the very good EE...its dissing the strategy of paying and playing a 37 year old in lieu of a 24 year old.

Obviously the last 30 at bats are as meaningless as the first 30. What matters is the elite eye and the plus power. But so many want to draw conclusions on nothing

We should explore trading Collins for Nelson Cruz AND sign EE. Cruz had a way better year than EE.

Why are you, the Collins backer, going to assume he sucks next year? What if Robert sucks? What if Giolito sucks? Should we bring in more old guys because we fear the young guys will suck based on his first 30 at bats in the majors...and ignore his .930 OPS in his last 30 at bats in the majors? Collins madness.

I think Abreu begins being phased out and Vaughn will be a rookie. If Collins can hit 30 homers and walk 100 times as a lefty batter for the next ten years...I'd find a spot for him. Still I respect your dogged love of really really old DH sorts.

I love the civility on Soxtalk. "No fucking clue"? And yet...all 37 year old DH's perform exactly as they did in younger years in perpetuity. Just plug in the numbers in your Xbox. Meanwhile we deny that Zack Collins has an extraordinary batting eye and plus power but will likely not hit so many singles so there is no spot for him on the team...so let's go back to the old Sox plan. I wonder if Melky is still available.

50 games at catcher, 50 games at 1st 50 games at DH. McCann is gone by 2021. Abreu will need more rest.

And you really don't seem to understand that Collins has a major pedigree...he was BA's freshman of the year at Miami, as a junior he led all college players in walks, he won the Buster Posey award as best college catcher. He was a top ten draft pick. In 2017 he was selected to the Futures game and He led all minor league players in walks in 2018...was a Southern league all star...mid year and year end. And yes he had a .950 OPS in 2019....then had 30 terrible at bats in June, wherein you and everyone else on Soxtalk determined he's not good...and then in his final 30 at bats in September he had a .930 OPS. Every other fan base in baseball would be excited about Collins and we wan a 37 year old fading star. I surrender.

At what point do you think he hits the wall? He'll be 37.5 at the all star game. Guys drop off quickly. He was very good last year but his 2019 numbers don't help us and delaying Collins development for a year for maybe an extra win? And then EE retires? Pointless.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I think Collins will be a way better hitter in 2021 if he gets 400 major league at bats this year. If the Sox sign EE he won't. I think that is a huge mistake. I think Collins, Madrigal, Robert, Cease and Kopech have proven everything they need in the minors and this is the year to learn if they are major leaguers. None are likely to be instant stars...but all will be better than the garbage they had last year. This is the year we stumble into the playoffs and next year is the year where it all comes together. EE does nothing for that.

So he'll be Kyle Schwarber...500 game MLB career of .235/.339/.490. Strike out 30% of the time. Yup. I'm fine with that.

You mean like...Moncada? But with a better eye? He had a .950 OPS at AAA. He had an .800 OPS in the impossible Birmingham park between 2017-18; an .850 OPS in 16-17 at A+, and a 1.000 OPS in three years in college...all while playing the hardest defensive position to learn. And you say his hit tool is "highly questionable"???. Again...Soxtalk has lost their minds on Collins...we should be SOOOO excited to see him DH next year full time and instead we want the fossilized remains of EE??

Yes but this is not win in 2020 or disband. This is how do we build a juggernaut. There is zero question that EE is less risky for 2020 than Collins...unless you measure the risk of wasting a year of development of Collins...or you measure the risk of people at 37 aging really quickly. I think it's nice that you didn't just take into account his 30 terrible June at bats but also took into account his 60 September at bats before writing him off. But...his last 30 at bats he put up a .930 OPS. You suggest he has things to work on...but if Grandal and Abreau and EE and Mccann are splitting 1800 at bats between 1b, DH and C...where are the at bats for Collins? Are you sending him back down??