michelangelosmonkey

I'm not saying our ONLY goal is fiscal responsibility. I'm saying if you look at risk and reward...Twins spent about $30 million/year for short term Cruz, Gonzalez, Schoop, Perez and have received tremendous about 8 WAR for it. Phillies spent $30 forever on one player that is producing about 3WAR. If the goal is to maximize WAR given a budget it seems it might be better spent $30 on four good guys this year, $30 on maybe a different four next year, $30 on a different four the year after that. Plugging in Melky, David Robertson and Adam Laroache to the 2015 Sox didn't really make sense...but same caliber of players for 2020 Sox could be perfect.

Yes but in 2015 we had two and a half stars. With Abreau, Madrigal, Anderson, Moncado, McCann, Collins, Robert, Jimenez, Gio, Cease, Lopez, Kopeck, Bummer and Colome and very soon Vaughan and Rodon...we seem way more ready to compete than at any time in 2015 (or anytime in 90 years). I think spending $10 mill on Avi, $10 million Wheeler, and bringing in 2 $5 mill solid if unspectacular relievers is better spent than a splash over pay for Bryce Harpers 3 WAR. There is no question it is sexier to sign the big name...but Poppysox was exactly right about the over pay you have to do to get the big names. We HAVE the big names just coming up now.

What's wrong with 2019 Twins? They are on pace for 98 wins. I'd love the Sox to be there next year...With a playoff rotation of Gio, Cease, Kopeck, Lopez and Rodon.

I'm really coming over to this side of the argument. Baseball is such a weird sport. In 2012 it looked like the Angels might be on the verge of something...they looked at 19 year old Mike Trout and said...wow we have to build something around this guys so they pushed all the chips in and signed Albert Pujolos for 10/$240. They had 25 year old Mark Trumbo who had hit 31 doubles and 29 homers in his rookie year, Torii Hunter who would have a 5.5 WAR in RF, and a pitching staff of Dan Haren, Ervin Santana, Zach Greinke, CJ Wilson and Jerred Weaver. They had stars all over the place...and they finished 3rd and only won 88 games (Trout had a 10.5 War that year)...I think largely because they had too many guys that were worthless. The White Sox look like they might have all the stars they need...but need to build depth. Replacing horrible with competent seems like a smart strategy...and the Sox still have a lot of horrible around.

This is the most ridiculous comment. The team has had a worse record in the last few years because THAT'S THE PLAN. I was mixed on the idea of the rebuild but many on this board were pushing hard for it...and in retrospect I think it was right and smart and the actions the team has taken can all be explained within the concept of the goal of short term pain for long term greatness (See Astros, Cubs). There was no "plan" in the Veeck years outside of...how do we pay the electric bill. That was a dark, hopeless period...this is a dark period filled with an extraordinary amount of hope.

Its fair that I misremembered a bit...but the fundamental memory from the time 1975-81 was a constant state of worry that the team was going to fold, or get taken over by the league or get moved to another city. The team was a laughing stock and outside of the 77 Hitmen (which Veeck immediately sold off the good players) was terrible. As for Reinsdorf threatening to move the team...Comisky park was an 80 year old dump with about a third of the seats obstructed view. The team needed a new stadium and Chicago was not being helpful. The White Sox since Reinsdorf took over in 1982 to the start of the rebuild have been 2850-2750 with the only WS in 100 years. OK not glory but not a laughing stock. I just fear the abyss and this kind of talk from Renteria destroys a lot of hope that I have been putting in "the new way".

I was a kid when Bill Veeck was owner of the White Sox and i so badly wanted to root for him. He had a great back story, he loved baseball, he was fun, and he was the owner of MY team...but man he was a terrible owner...he had no money and you'd start to like someone and then he was gone to save money. At that time there was talk of him selling the team and moving it to St Pete...and I was kind of resigned to it...I loved the Sox but it was so terrible to be a baseball laughing stock. When I read this i feel so much like those times...I so badly want to believe that there is a "new way" and that behind the scenes there is a new intelligence led by Hahn. The Robert signing was great, the trades were great, the rebuild was the right thing to do and i still want to believe that in the off season they WILL spend the money. But man they HAVE to fire Renteria. I'm ok with a pleasant old school guy as your manager when you are in this painful rebuild and ignoring the science of baseball actually helps you get the top five picks. But we are about to buy a new Ferrari and hand the keys over to this knucklehead? Please have mercy on our souls.

Ok...yes $30 is goofy...$5? $10? He's had a lot of injuries the last few years and he's "only" 33 and had an amazing 7 year run. Still better to go seek someone like the amazing Mike Minor...who Atlanta gave up on...Texas signed for 3/$28 and he's put up an 11 WAR in a year and a half. Luck plays such a key in this. Also...a reason not to give up on Carson Fulmer...there's clearly talent there and sometimes pitches are late bloomers.

What was (is) a "once in a generation" opportunity was to spend $300 million. There is virtually no payroll and won't be for about five years. I think in retrospect spending that $300 on a superstar hitter with almost a guaranteed wasted year may not have been the right move. A left handed hitting right fielder does, in retrospect, seem like exactly what we need...but Machado who they really went after now looks like a redundancy. It looks to me like they are going to have a ton of hitting...so spending that $300 on a superstar pitcher might be the preferred route. But the idea of spending it on five $60 million contracts is appealing. Of course not spending it at all will just irritate everyone.

Yeah, so the question posted was, a theoretical exercise....if you could go back in time with the sack of $320 million would you still have signed Machado or Harper. Given the question I said there was a third option which is allocating those resources to someone else and I gave ideas. The great thing about Soxtalk is...no matter what the conversation, no matter where you go on the site...there's always some poster saying HAHN SUCKS! REINSDORF SUCKS! THE TEAM SUCKS! THE PAST IS THE FUTURE! Thank you for your enlightening thoughts.

The problem with retrospect is we don't have all the information. If instead of throwing $300 million at one of those two they give Cole 7/$210 and Puig 2/$50 and Felix Hernandez 1/$30 and Reinsdorf $10...I'd be ok with that shuffling of resources. But if the choice is...$300 mil last year for one of those two versus the Sox sitting on their wallet....well then I hate them...but I do believe they will spend.

In January if you had told me that the White Sox had agreed to send the failed prospect Giolito and failing prospect Moncada to Boston in a block buster deal that sent back Chris Sale and that we had then signed him to a 5 year extension at $30 million per year...I would have been thrilled. We had our ace to couple with Kopech, Cease and Lopez. It's a funny game. Sale got bombed again today...5-11 with an ERA nearing 5. Gio is 24, earning $500K a year and has a 4 WAR ytd and Moncada is 24, earning $500K and has a 3 WAR ytd. Still...I'd take on that salary in a buy low trade with Boston...send them Basabe, Pinklington and some 17 year old DSL wildcard like that Fernando Tatis, Jr kid (sorry...trolling).

That is fine and a reasoned position...that he might have swing and miss issues...so do LOTS of players that are valuable But to keep ignoring that he is hitting .255, not .240, this year in AAA and to ignore his power numbers and best-in-minors walk rate at a position where hitting is rare...and say that he will never get called up again? That's just trolling and I'm not sure the point.

Why are you resorting to 1950's era stats...batting average...to evaluate a player that has elite power and OBP potential? It just seems like you are hating to hate. In fact in his first taste of highest level minor league pitching he has a .255 batting average with an .861 OPS in AAA...playing catcher...at 24 (bandbox helps power not batting average). Maybe he won't make it. There are some things to be concerned about...but to be so adamant that he is a fail seems based on wishing and not evidence (as I don't count 26 at bats over a month in the majors as evidence of anything). For a swing and miss catcher with power and walks...look at Gary Sanchez of the Yankees. Was one year younger at AAA with a worse OPS when the Yankees called him up. He's hitting .229 this year with a 2.2 WAR. I think Collins could do that. I think the reason he isn't up now is because McCann had an All star first half. I think Collins will have a better major league career at catcher than McCann...that's a controversial position but defensible. I don't think your "he will never make it back to the major leagues" is defensible.

So after a 3 year NCAA career where his per 162 average was 33 doubles, 36 homers and 151 walks... And after 1100 minor league at bats where his 162 average was 31 doubles, 24 homers and 129 walks... and with him being only 24 playing one of the hardest positions on the field... And you have completely written him off because of 26 at bats in 9 games spread out over a month? He'll never make it to the Majors again??? That is a weird take. Are you talking about Zack Collins or is there another Collins you are slamming? Weren't you also a huge hater on Madrigal? The site would be better without loud apocalyptic predictions about important players in the rebuild based on a couple of major league games.

#1--if by "half assed" you meant that it didn't work...well clearly you have evidence after the fact on your side. But in 2014 the signing of Adam laroche was not bargain basement...he signed for 2 years $25 million coming off an .820 OPS year, 2.5 WAR season. Melky Cabrera was coming off a 3.3 WAR season. They also signed Zack Duke and David Robertson and traded for 2 WAR Jeff Smardja. At the time it was not a crazy idiotic plan to go for it with a Sale/Quintana/Rodon/Smardja rotation to try to recapture the 2005 winning formula. If you want to be butt hurt at the management because they tried and failed...enjoy. #2 It wasn't TWO data points...I listed Dye, AJ, Fisk, Abreau, Robert...but there were a lot of others...some successful and some not. But really...you know how many World series since 2004 the big market Yankees have won? Same as the White Sox. And the White Sox have more than those big spending Dodgers. Its not been fun to follow lately but I love the rebuild and i think it has us set up great for a real run of success. #3 It wasn't a massive fail. The Phillies were at least a year ahead of us in the rebuild process...they spent $400 million on Harper, McCuthceon and Robertson and helped them to a few games over .500 . One can certainly make a cogent argument that, given the exciting players coming up, taking $300 million and spreading it over 4 or 5 good players instead of one great player might be more prudent. Maybe not...maybe they will be proven wrong. But to suggest an epic fail suggests you have a much clearer view of the unknowable than the rest of us.

#1 is a fair point...but also suggests the Wsox DID swim in the deep end of the pool with Abreau and Robert and they have recently won both of those...and I think those are more relevant than condemning them for trying to patch together a contender when we had the Sale/Quintana/Rodon potential. #2 Only relevant when the premise is "reinsdorf is a cheap bastard that will never spend on A free agents". there are data points that say he will and has. Not enough for some and CLEARLY they need to push the chips to the center this off season. #3...above a certain dollar level there are things that might make a difference. Being creative at that point was worthwhile. At some point the agent says...gentlemen submit your final offer...and the Sox didn't work. But the idea that if the Sox had offer a flat $300 mill with no incentives and no friends...they would have won the contest. It didn't work, pivot. (though really...your points about 26 year old superstars available for just money...yes...they should have got it done).

Shouldn't Abreau count? 6 year $68 million was a pretty ballsy move in 2013 for a guy that never played in the majors. And Robert's $52 million deal (26 mill signing bonus and $26 mill tax)...for a 19 year old. And with each era...Fisk, Dye, AJ...they had big contributors that were free agents. I know it doesn't fit the sites narrative to suggest that this front office IS trying and some of their moves aren't terrible but the negativity is overwhelming. I think they DID try hard...for Machado...they offered according to Ken Rosenthal...$250 m with incentives to get to $350m plus two of his best friends and his brother in law. A confident betting man takes the chance at $350 with the downside being generational wealth. He chose sunny California and the bigger guarantee. Either choice was not wrong for Manny. But too many on here think the Sox made a stupid offer...there was always only going to be one winner for Machado. As for Harper...I think it was reasonable not to pay the guy $350 m. There are currently 13 outfielders that have a higher OPS than him....he's basically having the same year as Marcell Ozuna. I think keeping your power dry for when you REALLY need it (they weren't ready this year even with one of those two) makes sense. That said...they'd better spend it this year. I just think they will and think it's unfair to suggest they never will.

Rod Carew had a five year period where he averaged 8 WAR and 8 home runs.

I'm not falling all over myself. I'm merely saying that at the time it was not the most ridiculous trade ever. Trading a burned out prospect and a lottery ticket (that happened to become a $100,000,000 lottery winner) for a former very good pitcher is often done and sometimes the pitcher turns it around. For you to suggest Cole Hamels was Cy Young and Shields was garbage...and most of your evidence is Hamels winning more popularity contests and being hot in the 2008 playoffs and using "shit" and "fuck" and lots of questions marks doesn't make it true. At his peak Hamels was better than Shields but Shields pitched in the AL East as TBR best pitcher and Hamels in the NL East behind the great Roy Halladay . The five years prior to the trade Shields had 18.3 WAR and Hamels had 18.9. Shields was making $21 million a year, Hamels $23. In their 34th year they were terrible...Hamels with the five game stretch of 10+ ERA immediately before the trade. I don't think the comparison is out of line. But honestly...You win. Go back to the daily self flagellation about one trade that turned out bad and how management is stupid and everything is horrible and it will be horrible forever.

Verlander in 2015 looked done. 32. 5-8, velocity down, WHIP up. It's not absurd to gamble on a past ace. And buying low is a strategy. After all Shields only cost the greatest player to ever play the game.

I filled the entire lineup, pitching staff and closer with guys 26 and under with star potential...and I got crap. I added a half dozen more and you tell me I need to find better names. Ok...Steele Walker, Gavin Sheets, Konnor Pilkington, Tyler Johnson, Luis Gonzalez, Jake Burger...oh wait...some of those guys have had a bad 40 games...they are trash (Hansen, like Giolito will never amount to anything. Steele Walker, like Moncado will never develop power, Collins like Tyler Flowers will never be a quality catcher). The White Sox are on the precipice of something amazing and all half the board wants to do is complain about a 17 year old guy that was not in the top 30 international prospects in the year we signed him that became great. Honestly...we don't spend enough time complaining about the draft where we didn't take Trout.

Good grief...the team plane could crash and we end up with nothing. The negativity at this time is unbelievable. You don't like Collins, Rutherford, Dunning and Rodon...Lopez is 25, Adolofo is 22, Basabe is 22, Hansen is 24, Burdi is 23...all with high ceilings and this is under 26. McCann looks legit, Abreau is an All star. And with a payroll...seems like getting someone like Greinke or Bumgarter is strongly possible. We need to rejoice at the future...and not the future of Tatis.

Honestly...hard to move on? Here is the White Sox team of 26 and under. With almost no payroll. Tatis is great...but come on guys. This is going to be an epic run. 1b Andrew Vaughan 21 2b Nick Madrigal 22 SS Tim Anderson 26 3B Yoan Moncado 24 C Zack Collins 24 CF Luis Robert 22 LF Eloy Jimenez 22 RF Blake Rutherford 22 SP Michael Kopech 22 SP Lucas Giolito 24 SP Dylan Cease 23 SP Dane Dunning 24 SP Carlos Rodon 26 Closer Bummer 25

Cole Hamels was virtually identical to Shields (former ace, 34 years old, 10+ ERA over the 5 starts before the trade, owed $20 mill a year for several years) after the trade he put up a 6 WAR over his next 30 starts. If Shields had done that in 2016 with the generational greatness of Sale, Quintana with a higher WAR than Sale that year, Rodon soaring through the second half with a 7-3 record and a three man bullpen putting up a 5+ WAR... a wild card and hot play off run could have led to a 2015esque World Series. All they gave up was a failed pitching prospect and a 17 year old who had never played a game for them and had not been ranked in the top 30 from that years International draft. All things become clear in retrospect and the retrospect of this trade has been particularly brutal. But it still seems to be a "eh...win some, lose some" issue.