michelangelosmonkey

Well thank goodness we can finally agree that Collins is not a major leaguer. 15 at bats in September after 25 earlier in the year. Sure he crushed AAA pitching this year, and he's only 24, at a very difficult position and sure he's put up a .350 OBP in those 15 at bats...but done. Lopez also done...as were Giolitto and Moncado last year. Life is much easier when we can make sweeping conclusions instantly.

Snarky attacks are so clever. Robert signing, Sale trade, Eaton trade Quintana trade, Madrigal draft, Vaughan draft...what?? What hasn't gone well? Yes injuries have hurt but if you dont think this team is on the cusp...I'm not sure what you are looking at.

Please...go get a new hobby. Hating the White Sox and constant whining about the management on every thread and every conversation makes the whole sight boring. Yes rebuilding is hard and suffering through losing seasons to become a great team is taxing...but this isn't random...the rebuild has been well calculated and well executed. If you can't enjoy where we are right now in the evolution of the team, seemingly on the cusp of greatness...there's no hope that you will ever enjoy the team. Go find something that makes you happy.

I'm SO happy Dylan Covey pitched last night. I wasn't paying that close of attention and I knew it was close to Dylan Cease's turn in the rotation...and after last time's very encouraging start I was looking forward to another step forward...then I saw the 7 runs given up by Dylan C in 2 and a half innings and I felt depressed. Only later did I see it was the other Dylan that got killed. Dylan Covey getting destroyed means nothing for the team outside of this one day. And any fans buying tickets got to see Anderson and Moncado go 5 for 9 and Abreau hit a three run homer to make the game exciting.

Pittsburgh Steelers from 1933 to 1971 won a total of zero playoff games. The next eight years they went to the playoffs 8 times and won 4 Super Bowls. Art Rooney owned the team the whole time. The past is not the future. If you can't get excited about what's happening now with the White Sox future there's really no point in being a White Sox fan.

Isn't it possible the market has changed? Top two by a wide range this past year (total $ committed) were Machado and Harper and their $/War isnt great...and the year before it was Hosmer and Darvish and their return has been bad and in 2016 it was Cespedes and Chapman...that's a lot of money thrown at six players that have averaged less than 2 WAR per season since their big contracts. It's possible the new smart move is to vulture teams that are imploding and get guys like Yelich as the Brewers did, or Verlander like the AStros did. Of course the key to that is having a bunch of minor league assets which has been discouraging for the Sox this year (past the top five or so).

Yes that was exactly the point. Thanks for playing along.

I'm sorry I clearly can't help you. The point wasn't shopping for milk...or Baumgartner...or anyone. It is how does one go about spending a budget for the White Sox in the most effective way....one huge splash, several medium splashes or many small splashes. When I discuss how to divide the pie and you tell me that you don't like apple pie or that it's easier to cut cherry pies or that pizza isn't really a pie...and suggest I'm some sort of an idiot...it's probably time to stop arguing.

I was talking theoretically about how one spends a budget...so it seems you are missing the point by more than half. I would also rather give Rodon an extension than 5/$100 million to Bum who's an NL pitcher turning 30 with 2000 IP on his arm an ERA nearly 4.

I wasn't doing an indepth budget...I was just making a point about shopping second tier instead of the flashy titles. Make it Baumgartner for $12 and Avi for $8. However it falls...and ALL this said...if they want to drop $7/$240 for Gerrit Cole...I'm ok with that. I love their future.

I'm not saying our ONLY goal is fiscal responsibility. I'm saying if you look at risk and reward...Twins spent about $30 million/year for short term Cruz, Gonzalez, Schoop, Perez and have received tremendous about 8 WAR for it. Phillies spent $30 forever on one player that is producing about 3WAR. If the goal is to maximize WAR given a budget it seems it might be better spent $30 on four good guys this year, $30 on maybe a different four next year, $30 on a different four the year after that. Plugging in Melky, David Robertson and Adam Laroache to the 2015 Sox didn't really make sense...but same caliber of players for 2020 Sox could be perfect.

Yes but in 2015 we had two and a half stars. With Abreau, Madrigal, Anderson, Moncado, McCann, Collins, Robert, Jimenez, Gio, Cease, Lopez, Kopeck, Bummer and Colome and very soon Vaughan and Rodon...we seem way more ready to compete than at any time in 2015 (or anytime in 90 years). I think spending $10 mill on Avi, $10 million Wheeler, and bringing in 2 $5 mill solid if unspectacular relievers is better spent than a splash over pay for Bryce Harpers 3 WAR. There is no question it is sexier to sign the big name...but Poppysox was exactly right about the over pay you have to do to get the big names. We HAVE the big names just coming up now.

What's wrong with 2019 Twins? They are on pace for 98 wins. I'd love the Sox to be there next year...With a playoff rotation of Gio, Cease, Kopeck, Lopez and Rodon.

I'm really coming over to this side of the argument. Baseball is such a weird sport. In 2012 it looked like the Angels might be on the verge of something...they looked at 19 year old Mike Trout and said...wow we have to build something around this guys so they pushed all the chips in and signed Albert Pujolos for 10/$240. They had 25 year old Mark Trumbo who had hit 31 doubles and 29 homers in his rookie year, Torii Hunter who would have a 5.5 WAR in RF, and a pitching staff of Dan Haren, Ervin Santana, Zach Greinke, CJ Wilson and Jerred Weaver. They had stars all over the place...and they finished 3rd and only won 88 games (Trout had a 10.5 War that year)...I think largely because they had too many guys that were worthless. The White Sox look like they might have all the stars they need...but need to build depth. Replacing horrible with competent seems like a smart strategy...and the Sox still have a lot of horrible around.

This is the most ridiculous comment. The team has had a worse record in the last few years because THAT'S THE PLAN. I was mixed on the idea of the rebuild but many on this board were pushing hard for it...and in retrospect I think it was right and smart and the actions the team has taken can all be explained within the concept of the goal of short term pain for long term greatness (See Astros, Cubs). There was no "plan" in the Veeck years outside of...how do we pay the electric bill. That was a dark, hopeless period...this is a dark period filled with an extraordinary amount of hope.

Its fair that I misremembered a bit...but the fundamental memory from the time 1975-81 was a constant state of worry that the team was going to fold, or get taken over by the league or get moved to another city. The team was a laughing stock and outside of the 77 Hitmen (which Veeck immediately sold off the good players) was terrible. As for Reinsdorf threatening to move the team...Comisky park was an 80 year old dump with about a third of the seats obstructed view. The team needed a new stadium and Chicago was not being helpful. The White Sox since Reinsdorf took over in 1982 to the start of the rebuild have been 2850-2750 with the only WS in 100 years. OK not glory but not a laughing stock. I just fear the abyss and this kind of talk from Renteria destroys a lot of hope that I have been putting in "the new way".

I was a kid when Bill Veeck was owner of the White Sox and i so badly wanted to root for him. He had a great back story, he loved baseball, he was fun, and he was the owner of MY team...but man he was a terrible owner...he had no money and you'd start to like someone and then he was gone to save money. At that time there was talk of him selling the team and moving it to St Pete...and I was kind of resigned to it...I loved the Sox but it was so terrible to be a baseball laughing stock. When I read this i feel so much like those times...I so badly want to believe that there is a "new way" and that behind the scenes there is a new intelligence led by Hahn. The Robert signing was great, the trades were great, the rebuild was the right thing to do and i still want to believe that in the off season they WILL spend the money. But man they HAVE to fire Renteria. I'm ok with a pleasant old school guy as your manager when you are in this painful rebuild and ignoring the science of baseball actually helps you get the top five picks. But we are about to buy a new Ferrari and hand the keys over to this knucklehead? Please have mercy on our souls.

Ok...yes $30 is goofy...$5? $10? He's had a lot of injuries the last few years and he's "only" 33 and had an amazing 7 year run. Still better to go seek someone like the amazing Mike Minor...who Atlanta gave up on...Texas signed for 3/$28 and he's put up an 11 WAR in a year and a half. Luck plays such a key in this. Also...a reason not to give up on Carson Fulmer...there's clearly talent there and sometimes pitches are late bloomers.

What was (is) a "once in a generation" opportunity was to spend $300 million. There is virtually no payroll and won't be for about five years. I think in retrospect spending that $300 on a superstar hitter with almost a guaranteed wasted year may not have been the right move. A left handed hitting right fielder does, in retrospect, seem like exactly what we need...but Machado who they really went after now looks like a redundancy. It looks to me like they are going to have a ton of hitting...so spending that $300 on a superstar pitcher might be the preferred route. But the idea of spending it on five $60 million contracts is appealing. Of course not spending it at all will just irritate everyone.

Yeah, so the question posted was, a theoretical exercise....if you could go back in time with the sack of $320 million would you still have signed Machado or Harper. Given the question I said there was a third option which is allocating those resources to someone else and I gave ideas. The great thing about Soxtalk is...no matter what the conversation, no matter where you go on the site...there's always some poster saying HAHN SUCKS! REINSDORF SUCKS! THE TEAM SUCKS! THE PAST IS THE FUTURE! Thank you for your enlightening thoughts.

The problem with retrospect is we don't have all the information. If instead of throwing $300 million at one of those two they give Cole 7/$210 and Puig 2/$50 and Felix Hernandez 1/$30 and Reinsdorf $10...I'd be ok with that shuffling of resources. But if the choice is...$300 mil last year for one of those two versus the Sox sitting on their wallet....well then I hate them...but I do believe they will spend.

In January if you had told me that the White Sox had agreed to send the failed prospect Giolito and failing prospect Moncada to Boston in a block buster deal that sent back Chris Sale and that we had then signed him to a 5 year extension at $30 million per year...I would have been thrilled. We had our ace to couple with Kopech, Cease and Lopez. It's a funny game. Sale got bombed again today...5-11 with an ERA nearing 5. Gio is 24, earning $500K a year and has a 4 WAR ytd and Moncada is 24, earning $500K and has a 3 WAR ytd. Still...I'd take on that salary in a buy low trade with Boston...send them Basabe, Pinklington and some 17 year old DSL wildcard like that Fernando Tatis, Jr kid (sorry...trolling).

That is fine and a reasoned position...that he might have swing and miss issues...so do LOTS of players that are valuable But to keep ignoring that he is hitting .255, not .240, this year in AAA and to ignore his power numbers and best-in-minors walk rate at a position where hitting is rare...and say that he will never get called up again? That's just trolling and I'm not sure the point.

Why are you resorting to 1950's era stats...batting average...to evaluate a player that has elite power and OBP potential? It just seems like you are hating to hate. In fact in his first taste of highest level minor league pitching he has a .255 batting average with an .861 OPS in AAA...playing catcher...at 24 (bandbox helps power not batting average). Maybe he won't make it. There are some things to be concerned about...but to be so adamant that he is a fail seems based on wishing and not evidence (as I don't count 26 at bats over a month in the majors as evidence of anything). For a swing and miss catcher with power and walks...look at Gary Sanchez of the Yankees. Was one year younger at AAA with a worse OPS when the Yankees called him up. He's hitting .229 this year with a 2.2 WAR. I think Collins could do that. I think the reason he isn't up now is because McCann had an All star first half. I think Collins will have a better major league career at catcher than McCann...that's a controversial position but defensible. I don't think your "he will never make it back to the major leagues" is defensible.

So after a 3 year NCAA career where his per 162 average was 33 doubles, 36 homers and 151 walks... And after 1100 minor league at bats where his 162 average was 31 doubles, 24 homers and 129 walks... and with him being only 24 playing one of the hardest positions on the field... And you have completely written him off because of 26 at bats in 9 games spread out over a month? He'll never make it to the Majors again??? That is a weird take. Are you talking about Zack Collins or is there another Collins you are slamming? Weren't you also a huge hater on Madrigal? The site would be better without loud apocalyptic predictions about important players in the rebuild based on a couple of major league games.