michelangelosmonkey

#1--if by "half assed" you meant that it didn't work...well clearly you have evidence after the fact on your side. But in 2014 the signing of Adam laroche was not bargain basement...he signed for 2 years $25 million coming off an .820 OPS year, 2.5 WAR season. Melky Cabrera was coming off a 3.3 WAR season. They also signed Zack Duke and David Robertson and traded for 2 WAR Jeff Smardja. At the time it was not a crazy idiotic plan to go for it with a Sale/Quintana/Rodon/Smardja rotation to try to recapture the 2005 winning formula. If you want to be butt hurt at the management because they tried and failed...enjoy. #2 It wasn't TWO data points...I listed Dye, AJ, Fisk, Abreau, Robert...but there were a lot of others...some successful and some not. But really...you know how many World series since 2004 the big market Yankees have won? Same as the White Sox. And the White Sox have more than those big spending Dodgers. Its not been fun to follow lately but I love the rebuild and i think it has us set up great for a real run of success. #3 It wasn't a massive fail. The Phillies were at least a year ahead of us in the rebuild process...they spent $400 million on Harper, McCuthceon and Robertson and helped them to a few games over .500 . One can certainly make a cogent argument that, given the exciting players coming up, taking $300 million and spreading it over 4 or 5 good players instead of one great player might be more prudent. Maybe not...maybe they will be proven wrong. But to suggest an epic fail suggests you have a much clearer view of the unknowable than the rest of us.

#1 is a fair point...but also suggests the Wsox DID swim in the deep end of the pool with Abreau and Robert and they have recently won both of those...and I think those are more relevant than condemning them for trying to patch together a contender when we had the Sale/Quintana/Rodon potential. #2 Only relevant when the premise is "reinsdorf is a cheap bastard that will never spend on A free agents". there are data points that say he will and has. Not enough for some and CLEARLY they need to push the chips to the center this off season. #3...above a certain dollar level there are things that might make a difference. Being creative at that point was worthwhile. At some point the agent says...gentlemen submit your final offer...and the Sox didn't work. But the idea that if the Sox had offer a flat $300 mill with no incentives and no friends...they would have won the contest. It didn't work, pivot. (though really...your points about 26 year old superstars available for just money...yes...they should have got it done).

Shouldn't Abreau count? 6 year $68 million was a pretty ballsy move in 2013 for a guy that never played in the majors. And Robert's $52 million deal (26 mill signing bonus and $26 mill tax)...for a 19 year old. And with each era...Fisk, Dye, AJ...they had big contributors that were free agents. I know it doesn't fit the sites narrative to suggest that this front office IS trying and some of their moves aren't terrible but the negativity is overwhelming. I think they DID try hard...for Machado...they offered according to Ken Rosenthal...$250 m with incentives to get to $350m plus two of his best friends and his brother in law. A confident betting man takes the chance at $350 with the downside being generational wealth. He chose sunny California and the bigger guarantee. Either choice was not wrong for Manny. But too many on here think the Sox made a stupid offer...there was always only going to be one winner for Machado. As for Harper...I think it was reasonable not to pay the guy $350 m. There are currently 13 outfielders that have a higher OPS than him....he's basically having the same year as Marcell Ozuna. I think keeping your power dry for when you REALLY need it (they weren't ready this year even with one of those two) makes sense. That said...they'd better spend it this year. I just think they will and think it's unfair to suggest they never will.

Rod Carew had a five year period where he averaged 8 WAR and 8 home runs.

I'm not falling all over myself. I'm merely saying that at the time it was not the most ridiculous trade ever. Trading a burned out prospect and a lottery ticket (that happened to become a $100,000,000 lottery winner) for a former very good pitcher is often done and sometimes the pitcher turns it around. For you to suggest Cole Hamels was Cy Young and Shields was garbage...and most of your evidence is Hamels winning more popularity contests and being hot in the 2008 playoffs and using "shit" and "fuck" and lots of questions marks doesn't make it true. At his peak Hamels was better than Shields but Shields pitched in the AL East as TBR best pitcher and Hamels in the NL East behind the great Roy Halladay . The five years prior to the trade Shields had 18.3 WAR and Hamels had 18.9. Shields was making $21 million a year, Hamels $23. In their 34th year they were terrible...Hamels with the five game stretch of 10+ ERA immediately before the trade. I don't think the comparison is out of line. But honestly...You win. Go back to the daily self flagellation about one trade that turned out bad and how management is stupid and everything is horrible and it will be horrible forever.

Verlander in 2015 looked done. 32. 5-8, velocity down, WHIP up. It's not absurd to gamble on a past ace. And buying low is a strategy. After all Shields only cost the greatest player to ever play the game.

I filled the entire lineup, pitching staff and closer with guys 26 and under with star potential...and I got crap. I added a half dozen more and you tell me I need to find better names. Ok...Steele Walker, Gavin Sheets, Konnor Pilkington, Tyler Johnson, Luis Gonzalez, Jake Burger...oh wait...some of those guys have had a bad 40 games...they are trash (Hansen, like Giolito will never amount to anything. Steele Walker, like Moncado will never develop power, Collins like Tyler Flowers will never be a quality catcher). The White Sox are on the precipice of something amazing and all half the board wants to do is complain about a 17 year old guy that was not in the top 30 international prospects in the year we signed him that became great. Honestly...we don't spend enough time complaining about the draft where we didn't take Trout.

Good grief...the team plane could crash and we end up with nothing. The negativity at this time is unbelievable. You don't like Collins, Rutherford, Dunning and Rodon...Lopez is 25, Adolofo is 22, Basabe is 22, Hansen is 24, Burdi is 23...all with high ceilings and this is under 26. McCann looks legit, Abreau is an All star. And with a payroll...seems like getting someone like Greinke or Bumgarter is strongly possible. We need to rejoice at the future...and not the future of Tatis.

Honestly...hard to move on? Here is the White Sox team of 26 and under. With almost no payroll. Tatis is great...but come on guys. This is going to be an epic run. 1b Andrew Vaughan 21 2b Nick Madrigal 22 SS Tim Anderson 26 3B Yoan Moncado 24 C Zack Collins 24 CF Luis Robert 22 LF Eloy Jimenez 22 RF Blake Rutherford 22 SP Michael Kopech 22 SP Lucas Giolito 24 SP Dylan Cease 23 SP Dane Dunning 24 SP Carlos Rodon 26 Closer Bummer 25

Cole Hamels was virtually identical to Shields (former ace, 34 years old, 10+ ERA over the 5 starts before the trade, owed $20 mill a year for several years) after the trade he put up a 6 WAR over his next 30 starts. If Shields had done that in 2016 with the generational greatness of Sale, Quintana with a higher WAR than Sale that year, Rodon soaring through the second half with a 7-3 record and a three man bullpen putting up a 5+ WAR... a wild card and hot play off run could have led to a 2015esque World Series. All they gave up was a failed pitching prospect and a 17 year old who had never played a game for them and had not been ranked in the top 30 from that years International draft. All things become clear in retrospect and the retrospect of this trade has been particularly brutal. But it still seems to be a "eh...win some, lose some" issue.

Madrigal and Vaughan are the two post tank picks...I'm excited about both.

Though his go for it at all costs did lead to the 2005 WS...which is a moment I'll never forget.

Cole Hamels was 34, 1-3 with a 10.23 ERA in the five starts before the trade. But I do agree with you...I think Kenny still was running the show...and I think Kenny is largely to blame for the Sox dearth of talent by 2016. He took over a young 95 win team with the #1 rated farm system in 2000 and by the time he turned it over in 2012 they had the 30th ranked farm system and a broken down old team that was about to win 67 games in 2013. Jerry gets a lot of hate on Soxtalk. RH gets a lot of hate but it seems to me the real villain is KW.

I think all reasonable people can agree with this. We would never again hear Shields name if we hadn't included that lottery ticket in the birthday card...and now we will never be able to forget. The tragedy is our incredible bad luck.

I think the rebuild is exactly him learning from it. They were chasing a ring with a few superstars and garbage around them and hoping to catch lightening in a bottle with fading stars. The rebuild has been amazingly ruthless and methodical...and the results seem very exciting.

Maybe he said it...I couldn't find a contemporary statement. I did find a BA comment on the day of the trade that said Tatis was not in the top 30 of international prospects from 2015 nor was he a top 30 White Sox prospect. Shields is exactly as broken down a former ace as Cole Hamels was last year for the Cubs...and he has since put up a 6 WAR in his next 30 starts. Sometimes you get lucky...and some times you don't...but it is ridiculous after the fact to suggest we were giving up a future hall of famer for nothing.

Honestly Sox talk has lost their collective minds on this Tatis, Jr issue. If you give a friend, as kind of a joke, a lottery ticket in his birthday card...and he wins $100,000,000 it is A) the dumbest thing you ever did. B) the unlikeliest of outcomes. Here is the quote on the day of the trade: "BA did not rank him as one of the top 30 international prospects in 2015 or one of the White Sox top 30 prospects before this season."

I did find an article and a Klaw chat where the rumor was that the Sox were going to trade Tim Anderson for Shields and in both cases Klaw said that would be a big mistake....but I didn't see anything where anyone said "well trade Tim Anderson if you must but don't touch Fernando Tatis, Jr". Honestly there is no point in arguing as it DID turn out to be a disastrous trade...as the Nationals are saying now in the Eaton trade, and the Cubs in the Quintana trade. But come on...if I told you the White Sox traded Luis Mieses (sox current 18 year old prospect with Fangraph FV of 40 like Tatis back in 2016) for 34 year old Jeff Samardzija there are a LOT of negative takes you could have...but...oh no...not Mieses would be the least likely in present time.

Note I do not know you and cannot rule out the possibility that your family are time travelers. As for hating the trade at the time...of course...many people had that opinion. Expensive, old and in decline. Like Cole Hamels. I'm sure it is not hard to find Cubs fans that last year hated that trade as well...until they loved it. i cannot find any Keith Law rankings of Tatis BEFORE the trade....in 2017 of the six leading minor league rankers...BA, BP, Call, Sickles, MLB and Klaw only Klaw ranked Fernando at all...at 47 after Tatis had a very good showing in A ball at 17 post trade. Even after a great first year virtually all minor league experts had no opinion on Tatis and I suspect Klaw's was a combination of respect for the blood lines and punking the White Sox as he always does.

It DOESN'T speak for itself. It seems like Hahn has drafted and made a bunch of trades and we are set for potentially the greatest White Sox team any of us has ever seen. Madrigal, Moncado, Robert, Jimenez, Vaughan and Anderson all look like budding stars. McCann is an all star catcher. And Giolito, Cease, Kopech and Rodon all have ace stuff. Add in Bummer, Colome, ABreau, Dunning, Lopez, Collins, burger, Adolfo, Rutherford, Hansen, Basabe...and nearly the lowest payroll in baseball with a promise to spend? Hate on Hahn after the rebuild fails. It just seems like now is not the right time.

This is 100% hindsight. Cubs traded for Cole Hamels who was 34, 1-3 with a 10.23 ERA in the five starts before the trade and overall with a 5.2 FIP for the Rangers...which is a near exact comparison to Shields....and he was owed about the same amount of money and the Cubs traded three prospects for him. He has put up a 6 WAR in the 30 starts after the trade. You can say the Cubs are geniuses and the Sox are idiots but I think it is luck...it happens frequently a fading star pitcher comes back to life when traded to a contender...and it happens frequently that they just continue to be bad. But AT THE TIME...it was worth the gamble...if instead of putting up a -1.8 WAR the rest of the way Shields puts up a 3...then suddenly the Sox are in the Wild card chase...Sale and Quintana were both 5+ WAR pitchers that year, Rodon went 7-3 in the second half and that year you had a bullpen of David Robertson, Nate Jones and Dan Jennings who combined also had a 5 WAR. All you needed to do was make the wild card and you could have had a pitching WS run like 2005. It DIDN'T WORK. I am sad too...but it wasn't a systemic failure. As for the Tatis legend...Fangraphs was as high as anyone on him. Here are there post trade grades they had on him: Hit: 20/50, Raw Power: 40/50, Game Power: 20/50, Run: 50/45, Field: 40/45, Throw: 60/60, FV: 40 So his future value was a bench player who derives most of his value from speed and a big arm. Yawn.

It was not unreasonable for the Sox in the 2013-2016 period (Hahn's first years as GM) to try to patch together a champion. They got lucky when the generational talent of Sale suddenly appeared. They got equally lucky when Quintana fell off the trash pile into their laps. They should have been rebuilding in that period but instead they tried to catch lightening in a bottle (like 2005). If you could just reach the playoffs with Sale/Quintana they could have had a Johnson/Schilling Diamondbacks run. They threw a lot of money at aging stars like Dunn and Todd Frazier and Melky but the organization was too weak to get over the hump. After the hot start in 2016 trying to get a veteran former ace pitcher at mid season for a failed prospect and a lottery ticket was not stupid. Sometimes the 34 year old seemingly washed up ex-ace pitcher goes 9-1 the rest of the way like Verlander did last year and sometimes they go 4-12 like Shields did. And most of the time the lottery ticket is single A roster filler...but sometimes it becomes Tatis. Hahn had bad luck trying to build from a weak foundation but was smart enough at the end of 16 to realize it and blow it all up. Hahn needs to, and will be, judged by this rebuild. His off season acquisition this year have been really good considering it wasn't really the time to hit the accelerator. His big test is this coming off season...where he should have a pile of money and a budding roster of stars. We'll see but I haven't been this excited about a core Sox team since the Thomas/Venture/McDowell days.

The argument was that Hahn is terrible in evaluating major league talent. If you are being fair you exclude Alonso and Jay because they were CLEARLY signed to try to get Machado...and while it didn't work it was a creative way of trying to win the auction. Santana was a broken piece they found in the dump and got rid of after a few starts. I will give you that Nova and Herrera have been bad but you have to concede that McCann and Colome have been great. It just seems to me the wrong year to be angry at Hahn for inability to find major league players. There is a legitimate concern pre-rebuild about him trying to surround Eaton/Sale/Quintana with talent to win and failing. But it's hard not to like what he's done since the rebuild started.

Did I miss something? Isn't McCann the MVP of this years team? Doesn't Colome have 17 saves and a 0.69 WHIP? Are they both not going to be on the All Star team this year? If in next years off season we add two more All Stars and a couple of duds I'd be ok with that.

I'm not sure what the guy has to do to "earn" another chance in your eyes. The White Sox release their old left handed hitting DH and call up a left handed hitting DH that has a .922 OPS in AAA this year and finished 5th in rookie of the year balloting last year and you are mad about that?? To even suggest the older Skole, with the 3500 career at bats with an OPS barely over .800 is more deserving is unhinged. I will agree Palka had a horrific week and a half in April...but to completely write off his career because of that????