michelangelosmonkey

I also think its time to point out that Fernando Tatis Jr, after 100 at bats in AA (2017/18) is hitting under .240, with 31 strikeouts, three walks and seven errors. Can we finally concede he's a total bust? I think the rebuild is much easier when we can draw long term conclusions after a couple of dozen games.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 2, 2018 -> 09:30 AM) Sadly he actually did go to AA and kept destroying. What did he destroy in AA??? He had a .608 OPS, 30% strike out rate and made 5 errors in 9 games at SS. Granted SSS and he was only 18 but he was terrible in his short stay.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jan 30, 2018 -> 01:21 PM) Which was well deserved, given his production. What I take issue with is people equating "Avi hate" to the Sox possibly moving him and not locking him up to a long extension after one season of positive production, after 1,500 AB's of putting up a 0.0 WAR in his career. There are always going to be extremes on this board. In the same 24 hour period we had a poster saying he has a decent chance of being non-tendered in 2018, and a poster calling him Roberto Clemente. Removing the goofball stuff, fans don't "hate" Avi Garcia. Reasonable skepticism isn't hate. In fairness it wasn't a goofball poster comparing Avi to Roberto Clemente...it was ZIPS projections. I merely pointed out that for the first 2500 at bats Roberto Clemente was bad and then had a break out season and was great for the next 13 seasons. It seems to me crazier to think this 26 year old coming off a 4.6 WAR is likely to be terrible because of what he did at 24 than to think he could be Clemente. He's under control for two more years...it seems prudent to wait and see if he maintains greatness than to trade him for someone that we could DREAM of putting up a 4.6 WAR at 25.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jan 30, 2018 -> 10:40 AM) I know great seasons and the lure of big money makes players forget earlier statements about staying with their current team but Avi has said he'd like to stay with the Sox "forever". ( Abreu has made similar statements). If Avi continues on an upward path like still hitting .300 but increasing HR to the 25-35 range and is somehow not traded he will be come the face of the franchise and a beloved player. I know many still think his production last year was a mirage and have a really difficult time wrapping their head around Avi becoming an actual superstar but it could happen. Avi and Eloy manning the corners as the cornerstones of the Sox . Avi the savvy veteran and the Kid. Dream big or don't dream at all . I like the dream big scenario. The Zips projection lists Avi's closest comparison as Roberto Clemente. Through Roberto's first 2500 AB's he had a slash line of .285/.306/.373 and had 10 WAR over that five years. Then something clicked and he went .330/.370/.475 and averaged 6.5 over the next 13 years. Yes Roberto clicked at a younger age but Avi lost a full year to injury. Both RF's with cannon arms. I think there has been way too much negative comments about Avi when he was young and then when he had a monster year last year everyone said..."well yes but this" and "well yes but that". Not every great player comes up as Mike Trout. Why is it outlandish that Avi has found the greatness that everyone saw in him when he was 20? I sure like the idea of Jimenez, Robert, Avi outfield if Avi is Clemente.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 08:00 AM) You have to have balance. You must be a young fan. Read your White Sox history on the Go Go White Sox. They usually had great pitching, solid defense and speed. Unfortunately weak hitting. Over their 10-15 year stretch the Go Go White Sox only Went Went to one World Series. If you were a Strat-o-matic fan in those days you pulled your hair out with that damn offense. I'm not a young fan...but this is a totally silly comment by you. Baseball in 1960 was a different game. Exactly one team from each division went to the playoffs. From 1957 to 1967 those speed/defense/pitching Sox teams won an average of 90 games a year and went to ONE playoffs. From 63-65 they won 94, 98 and 95 games and never went to the playoffs. IF in that ten season stretch the playoffs were like today...the Sox would have gone to and won a few world series because they had GREAT pitching, defense and speed. In a seven game series they would have beaten the Yankees a few times. But in that day you had to have a fully balanced team. You don't have to do that today. When the Diamondbacks won the WS they had Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling and a juiced up Luis Gonzalez and not much else. We learn every year that it is no longer who had the best team over 162 games as it was before the 1970's...it is who is hot with great starting pitching in the playoffs.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) Because you can't keep trotting out one of worst offenses in baseball and expect to win games even if you have 5 Chris Sales. 2017 Offense: 1B - Abreu looks to be completely average at this point and we have no idea if he will even come close to where he was ever again. 2B - Average at best SS - Unknown at this point & Sox have non-existant track record of developing any offensive player 3B - Hits homers and nothing else C - Overpay for Lucroy I guess? LF - Last year of Melky, average to maybe solid. CF - Likely a rookie or another dumpster dive RF - Solid to star level DH - Dumpster dive or a rookie Our pitching will be great again, but that lineup screams Honestly you are welcome to be as pessimistic as you want. But you are wrong about baseball...go look at the 2012 or 2014 Giants WS champs...their second best hitters were Melky and old sox farmhand Michael Morse. Who was the second best hitter on the 2005 Sox WS team? Jermaine Dye. The secret to all those teams is that they had no terrible hitters and great starting pitchers. We are a C and CF away from being that...and Collins and Engel are our two best looking prospects. Again...it may not work. But its not implausible. This path has worked multiple times in the last dozen years. Sure its nice to have a great offense and great pitching but its not necessary.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 03:56 PM) You make a lot of sense. I have struggled with the idea of a tear down also. I'll post about which organizations would be a good fit to trade Sale or Q but then turn around and say if Hahn had signed Ian Desmond and Dexter Fowler , guys that were easily obtainable late in the off season how good is this team then ? Or perhaps Daniel Murphy who as a 30 year old signed just a 3 year deal with the Nats( not some mega 6 year deal) and is having a career year. He's that LH middle of the order power bat we needed, Fowler the OBP and speed in CF we needed. Desmond also a cheap signing for depth who ends up getting his career back on track could have played SS which the Sox also needed or DH'd or converted to OF like the Nats did with him. Things could have gone much better this year. You add those guys and Rollins isn't signed, Avi spends the year in the minors, Sands isn't on the roster. Do I expect Hahn and the boys to make perfect moves ? No but I expect them to be better than they have been. They have to remember too much talent isn't a bad thing. That's the spirit. We've also added Anderson who looks like our shortstop for the next ten years. And if you like prospects...how about Adam Engel who was the AFL player of the year, and then after a slow start in Birmingham has been amazing. He's a good fielder and an on base machine with plus speed for Center field...they just have to wait for 2017. Even Collins might be ready by then...if not at catcher he would be automatically better than Avi at DH. This is not a broken machine...this is a half fixed machine...and we fixed the hardest part...great starting pitching. Baseball is a game that requires massive patience and yet because of its daily games its hard not to give up hope after a bad loss.

I think people are too pessimistic here. Since 2005 the World Series has been won four times with teams with dominant starting pitching (Sox and the Giants three times). The Mets gave a black eye to the Cubs because dominant starting pitching can beat dominant hitting. The White Sox had no choice to follow the path they are one because the stumbled upon Quintana, Sale became one of the best pitchers of all time, and they got lucky drafting Rodon. Now they look like they may have gotten lucky getting Fulmer as well. I'm not saying it WILL happen...but lets say in 2017 Rodon improves to Quintana level and Fulmer starts and is Rodon 2015...and James Shields or Gonzalez pitches the way they have in July. You will all agree the defense is WAY better this year than it was last year. You have Austin Jackson and the two catchers done after this year which frees up $11 million in salary (along with adam Laroches $12 million already in your pocket). You resign Frazier (I'm fine with a good fielding 3b who hits 40 home runs but only hits .220) and then sign Lucroy (still need a catcher as Collins is probably a few years away). Why is that not one of the best teams in baseball...or at least a team that can get into the playoffs and then throw four aces into every round of the playoffs? The idea of trading for prospects is exciting as potential is so tantalizing but 2015 #2 BA prospect was Byron Buxton who has a .580 OPS after his first 300 MLB at bats. We need to be patient...building a championship is a long process and I think we have come a long way in three years.

After 9 games in 1927 the 32 year old Babe Ruth was hitting .233 with only 1 homer and a .744 OPS. I think the Sox talk thread back then was "Ruth is washed up. Its clear he can't hit the fastball anymore. We should try to dump him for prospects". He managed to hit 60 homers and put up a 1.259 OPS that season. So, yeah, baseball takes time to unfold. Let's exhume Frazier.

QUOTE (ronkark @ Apr 17, 2016 -> 03:12 AM) Been holding off on raising this but I can't be the only one who is having LaRoche/Dunn/Thome flashbacks given Frazier's early struggles I can't keep it in anymore. He's batting .178 and that includes today's gift popup hit. 10K's in 45 at bats on pace for over 200. No he's not Dunn or LaRoche. But LaRoche was coming off a great first half, bad second half season and so is Todd. Also he's adjusting to AL, which the other two struggled with. I'm not overly confident he'll hit even .240 this year. And that will kill this team. Really really really hope it picks up soon. the offense has been hidden by stellar pitching but Todd, Abreu with 12 K's in 36 at bats, Rollins, Jackson, Avi Ugh, Avila, Navarro, Shuck. We can have 4 guys struggle. Not 8. Sooner rather than later please! It's the NFL equivalent of mid third quarter of the first game...and Matt Forte has only 40 yards rushing and a 3.2 yards per carry average...and you are panicking. Enjoy first place...enjoy the best record in the AL...and patience.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 07:07 PM) We've lost more than one run per game from LAST season's offense by trying to improve it in the off-season, and somehow simultaneously managed to degrade the defense as well. That said, they have no choice but to try to fix it on the fly again and hope like hell that either Tim Anderson, Micah Johnson or Courtney Hawkins are legit big league regulars (two out of three). I don't think they've "lost" more than a run per game from last season. There's a randomness to baseball...sometimes a .950 OPS guys has an .870 OPS 70 game stretch. Maybe Laroche has become old all of a sudden or maybe he's just had a bad stretch. Maybe it's just a string of bad luck. But what I think we know is that Sale for three years has been a legitimate ace with the stuff to throw a shut out every time. We know that Q has for three years been one of the better pitchers in baseball. That's your base from which you build. I think...hell everyone thinks the White Sox got very lucky with Rodon. It is not inconceivable that Rodon and Sale become Koufax and Drysdale...Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling. No one gets that kind of luck but when you have it you then try to patch and build around them. You add the very solid Q and then Fulmer and Eric Johnson...why is it crazy to think in two years you have the best rotation in baseball? The Brewers are a blow it up organization. The White Sox have Sale, Rodon and Q and it would be madness to give up now.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:55 PM) 4th in the NL with a 3.49 ERA, and they have a ridiculous amount of resources now to attract a top of the rotation starter. Really THAT'S your take away? Which of the Cubs starters would you trade straight up for Rodon, Sale or even Q? Hammel's old. Lester is old and expensive. Arrieta's is 30 and has a season and a half of success. Hendricks isn't good. And the POINT wasn't are the Cubs good...which I think they are...but they built around hitting and their pitching, irrespective of team ERA is a bit shaky. The Sox will lose Shark off their payroll next year and with five cheap starting pitchers can go out and sign two or three high priced free agents to make the team better.

I don't know why the extreme pessimism on this site...and Cameron is an idiot for talking about getting rid of Sale. The Cubs went into the tank for years and used it to build up a darn good potential lineup...but they have no pitching. The Sox, with a bit of luck, could have Sale, Rodon, Eric Johnson, Q and Fulmer and have maybe three 1's and two 2's...all under 27. All cheap. Sure they have holes at 2b, 3b, SS, C but they don't need STARS there. They need a team that can score four runs a game and play good defense. The Phillies and Giants have both used that strategy to build recent championship team. The Braves in the 90's were a great pitching team, the Mets in the 80's, the Orioles in the 70's. The Dodgers in the 60's, The Indians in the 50's. This is a legitimate strategy for winning and when the Sox stumbled upon Sale, Q and Rodon...dammit we need to keep on that path and not blow it up.

QUOTE (DOWNTOWN PANTHER @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 09:51 AM) Dont take my word for it. Check in with me at about midseason and let me know then. You guys dont have to shoot the messanger here. Alos, for the person comparing Adam Dunn to Reggie Jackson. Relax!! Baseball Reference.com page on Adam Dunn...just saying... Similar Batters through 30 View Similar Player Links in Pop-up Compare Stats to Similars 1.Jose Canseco (888) 2.Rocky Colavito (887) 3.Harmon Killebrew (883) * 4.Sammy Sosa (881) 5.Reggie Jackson (877) * 6.Darryl Strawberry (871) 7.Ralph Kiner (861) * 8.Jim Thome (857) 9.Barry Bonds (850) 10.Boog Powell (842) * - Signifies Hall of Famer

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 08:07 AM) I like Morel a lot, had him higher on prospect lists than others in the last few, and I think he's got a real shot at being the Sox 3B next year. That said, the guy has a torn labrum, and the Sox have a pretty big stack of 3B's right now, so keeping him home to get extra rest in the offseason is the right move. Where is the link to his torn labrum...I googled it and it only refers to Soxtalk and forums that got it from Sox talk. Seems as if Soxtalk got it from his face book page?

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Dec 24, 2009 -> 01:00 AM) This years Yankees was probably the best team of the decade but at the same time I don't think any team in the last 10 years would have beaten the Sox with the way they pitched in the postseason. I had to look it up too...but interesting balloting that year: 1) Steroids 2) Steroids 3) Vlad 4) Steroids 5) Steroids 6) Konerko So according to my math Konerko finished second in MVP balloting that year.

According to FAngraph...wins above replacement for second basemen: Chase Utley: 5.5 Jayson Nix: 1.3 Juan Uribe: 1.0 Chris Getz: 0.4 Aaron Miles: -1.05 I think that sounds about right. Seems we are perhaps over rating Getz because of his grindiness? Or we figure he's young and getting better? Or we like his 18 stolen bases? At this point he is a defensive liability...-3.6 rating by Fangraphs. Nix is about the same age, a much better hitter and a much better fielder. The biggest question about Nix is...are his batting stats an illusion based on Guillen's platooning? I sure think it makes sense to try Nix for three weeks everyday to see.

Harold Baines was the sleepiest looking player I ever saw. He looked like he was sleeping at the plate...and in RF...and now they have a sleepy looking statue of him. It is such nonsense to suggest Rios isn't trying hard. Do people really think he had an .850 OPS prior to the contract and he loafed his way to an .800 OPS the next year? He goes up to the plate half the time and decides not to try?

How can no one have mentioned Eddie Collins? Arguably the second best second baseman of all time. Nellie Fox wasn't CLOSE to being as good as Eddie Collins. Frank's the greatest player. Then Collins, Appling and Walsh...the guy pitched nearly five HUNDRED innings one year...1800 batters faced...wonder what BAseball prospectus' pitcher abuse points looked like for that season?

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Feb 22, 2009 -> 10:39 AM) I'd expect a monkey with the ability to type to not make such mistakes, especially one owned by a genius such as Michelangelo. What does Michelangelo's genius have to do with his monkey? Typically one's genius doesn't pass on to our pets. Ask Frank Thomas's cat...never learned the strike zone.

QUOTE (bighurt4life @ Feb 22, 2009 -> 09:41 AM) I like Allen too but I still don't think he's so good that he counts double. Do I lose all credibility by saying I meant Cook? Shelby? Maybe Allen twice is a better choice.

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ Feb 21, 2009 -> 11:02 PM) mainly because, I have faith in Williams and his talent evaluation 2007 isn't happening again, this isn't a case of a massively injury-ridden team (at least not yet, crossing fingers) as long as our team stays healthy, I feel we will contend for the division edit: adding another, major, reason why I feel more excited this year. I feel this is the first time in a long while that the front office has taken a strong approach to eliminating the homerun - or - nothing offense that we've seen for so long if these players can perform both offensively and defensively (Owens/BA, Getz/Lillibridge/Nix, Fields/Viciedo), it will bring a better all-around style to the team, rather than the age-old one-dimensional, slow prodding nucleus that we're tired of watching every year I'm with you on this. I'm really fascinated with Kenny Williams and this spring in particular. OK, every once in a while a guy can get lucky on taking another organization's failed top prospect...but Kenny did it with Quentin, Jenks and Floyd in the last few years...guys that when we got them people said, m'heh. And now they are stars. And you think...maybe he was lucky or maybe...I don't know, maybe he sees things the rest of the GM's don't. Then this offseason he acquires Marquez, Betemit, Lillibridge, Van Benschoten and Nix and one has to sit up and wonder. Then KW did the same with international players...Tadahiro Iguchi, Shingo Takatsu and then last year Lexi...and now this year he adds Viciedo...who might be the most intriguing of all. And even the eye rolling over Bartolo Colon...but remember him pulling Estaban Loaiza off the old players scrap heap? Remember El Duque? Contreas? Jermaine Dye. Maybe it's not so crazy. Add into that mix, after the mess of the Sox minor league organization in the past we are presented with maybe the most interesting six pack of sox prospects at one camp...Flowers, Poreda, Allen, Bekham, Danks and Allen. And that's a dozen guys that are interesting. Sure everyone is a "maybe". But for most organizations "maybe's" are just organizational mirages sent to fans to give false hope. I've followed a lot of Sox teams over the last forty years and in so many years the Maybe's would be Getz, Fields and Broadway...and if you thought too hard about them you realized third place wasn't so bad. But Kenny? Maybe Kenny has a gift. If he does...perhaps the next WS isn't so far off.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 18, 2008 -> 03:38 PM) Why? I love Bobby, but he's not untouchable. He'd made a comment in jest, and i played the advocate. Why can't we discuss this? The problem with the "really good minor league outfielder" is what a long shot that still is. Here is the list of AA all star outfielders from the 3 AA leagues in 2005. Alex Romero Chris Robertson Daniel Ortmeier Jerry Owens Delmon Young Matt Murton Jeremy Hermidea Tyler Minges TJ Bohn Andre Ethier With perfect foresight only Ethier, I suspect, would you consider trading straight up for Jenks today. But in fact you wouldn't have that perfect foresight and would end up with a one in ten chance of getting a guy that is as good as Jenks and a 90% chance of being pissed off at the lousy trade we made for that AA all star outfielder. Jenks is really good major league starter and is not worth a small chance at a really good major leaguer.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 3, 2008 -> 08:45 PM) Not just last year, LAST DECADE!!! Personally, I just can't see KW trading away a JD to clear the way to sign an Abreu. But I've been surprised before. It doesn't really make sense. As noted, Abreu is going to hit 15-25 homers at USCF, not 30-45. He might have a better OBP, he MIGHT be a better defender...but he has slipped significantly. I suppose we could look at it as saving $3-4 million per season over Dye AND getting a pitcher back to take Vazquez's spot in the rotation. Just seems kind of backwards. Well, really the question is would it be better to buy a pitcher in the market or give up Dye in order to acquire one? I guess in KW's line of thinking, trading talent for younger/affordable starters is almost always better than buying veterans FA pitchers on the open market. You mean the "LAST DECADE" where we won three divisions, finished 2nd 4 times and won a World Series? That is the decade you don't want to repeat? Adam Dunn is a high on base, high power guy that would fit great on the team

QUOTE (TCQ @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 12:03 AM) There is a difference in those whove done it and those who havent. Theres also a difference between those who havent and those who will no longer. It would be a no brainer to make the kind of trade you commented on because with all of the potential that is in that package it is a risk one could live with. Vazquez fell apart under pressure and is extremely erratic. The point that he pitches 200 innings a year is moot due to his performance. Trading Jenks would be a very smart move as well if that was the package we got back because i can almost guarentee that he will not be on that same list in the next few years. He has a bolt in his arm and a declining k rate. People need to stop being so pro jenks just because he is a fan favorite. It is a business, and in this business the save is the most overrated stat. I know its not always easy to find the right guy to close but for every situation that there is a bad closer someone like JJ Putz (Two years ago), George Sherrill(This year), or Chad Cordero (Three years ago) comes out of no where to be spectacular. No one that pitches 60 innings a year should be guarded so heavily if he could yield that kind of return. I understand that this is the board Mantra about Jenks...he's an inch away from falling off the cliff. But a lot of great pitchers that pitched a long time have had arm surgery. Jenks this year had his lowest career ERA and second lowest WHIP. Further there are a ton of one hit wonders as relievers that lose it the next year...there are a handful that are consistent savers. Look at the WS champions the last 15 years and almost everyone had one of those guys that have had 30+ saves for five years in a row or more. Jenks seems to me that kind of a pitcher...perfect temperament for closing games...and he's learned there is no need to strike everyone out...yes he used to strike out twice as many as he does now...but he also walked twice as many. ASk Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Texas, Arizona...the Mets, there are a ton of teams with a lot of talent that don't make it because they have awful closers. We have a jewel in Bobby Jenks and I just hope we don't trade him away for a sack of magic beans...no matter how high the NY media thinks thinks those beans will grow.