michelangelosmonkey

Problem is JD is only six months younger than Abreau. Most here are saying Abreau is to old for the next Sox championship run...so why commit $110 to JD when most would not do the same for Jose. The exciting thing for Harper is his age...it seems so rare to have a 26 year old on the cusp of stardom hitting free agency. This year there are two.

It's way early to tell on Robert...it just seems like his walk rate was double Moncada's at same ages in the Cuban league. By most accounts having a good batting eye is one of his skills. Also if he hits for power like the reports say his walks will rise as pitches are more cautious with him. In any event...if the true number for the top 4 is 380? The larger point is we have a bunch of OBP guys coming to team with a bunch of power guys. If they land Harper the upside for the offense is great.

Robert walked 80 times in 600 at bats for the Cuban team and in his brief non-injured time in the minors was on pace for roughly the same. It is one of his skill sets. Collins as a hitter looks like Dunn to me...low batting average, great eye, big power. Dunn had 100+ walks many times in his career. To me the most unlikely is Basabe. It is less rare to have a team with 4 for 400...it's that fifth guy. Still its not CRAZY talk. And if you have an offense with 5 guys with 500 AND Madrigal who I think looks like he could be the new Rod Carew? That's a lot of base runners for for your power guys.

In the last ten years the White Sox have had exactly one hitter with 100 walks in a season...Adam Dunn did it once. Last year the Sox were second worst in MLB in walks. The year before they were third worst. I think walks are an essential skill not only in getting batters on base but also wearing down a pitcher. Its been painful watching their lack of understanding of the strike zone recently.. But is it possible that great days are ahead? In 2020, after we sign Bryce Harper...and Moncada improves...and Robert, Collins and Basabe come up that those five could walk 500 times? OK no White Sox team ever did this...1996 team had five with about 450. Red Sox team in 1949 had five with 525. But it doesn't seem impossible...Harper with 120, Collins 120, Moncado with 95, Robert with 90 and Basabe with 75? We could be building an elite offense. Fun to dream about...all those batters on base and Jimimez and Abreau bringing them home Come om Sox...sign Harper!

Yes but if you are putting the pieces together for a team to compete...having Davidson/Palka lefty/righty DH and occasional fill in at RF/LF/3b/1B is useful. You don't want them as your stars...but they are youngish/cheap and scary on the team if they are your seventh best hitter (Eloy, Abrea, Avi, Moncado, Anderson, Machado)

Davidson/Palka now have played combined 156 games...28 doubles, 3 triples, 32 homers. 58 walks, 82 RBI...nearly .800 OPS. Seems like a fully acceptable DH.

Jeremy Reed, at 22, in AA Birmingham hit .409 for half a season with an OPS of 1.065. I cried when they traded him for Freddie Garcia who did nothing for the White Sox (other than help them win a World Series). I cried when Jeremy got called up to the Mariners at 23 and in 20 games hit .397 with a .940 OPS. And for the next 8 seasons I breathlessly followed his certain Hall of Fame career denying the reality of his suckitude.

I don't get the hate because it seems irrational. For basically 2 years and 800+ AB's Avi has been an .850 OPS guy and people's argument is "yeah but when he was 23 and 24 in the majors for the first time he was a mess"...then every time he goes in a slump it is "well here comes terrible 24 year old Avi again". We are in the midst of a rebuild...good save our souls...every prospect outside of Frank Thomas/Mike Trout struggles before they find it. On this board half the posts are about whose job is it to drag Giolito, Fulmer, Lopez, Moncado and Tim Anderson to the dumpster...and we actually have someone that has broken through and we can't wait to trade him. It is reasonable to question his walks...but go look at Kirby Puckett's career (lifetime .340 BABIP including 4 years above .370). From the 5 years where he was 28-32 KP (basically when Avi will be due a new contract) averaged 5+ WAR a season including a 7.8 WAR in a year where he walked 23 times. And I know people will scoff at Avi=Kirby but at 24 Kirby put up a .655 OPS in 600 AB's/ Wouldn't Kirby Puckett look good in the 2020 lineup? Why would anyone want to trade that for some teams 10th rated prospect?

I was agreeing with you...and using stats in a reasonable way by looking at OPS every half season to eliminate SSS and they showed Avi was not just up and down but in fact seems to be growing as a hitter. As for the low walk rate...Kirby Puckett, Andre Dawson, Ivan Rodriquez, Orlando Cepeda....it makes it harder to be a hall of famer without walking much but there are examples.

I just don't get the Avi hate either. The idea that he is fools gold...that we've seen the good but he always returns to the bad?? Here are his first half second half splits basically for his Sox career...doesn't that look like a young player getting better?? Also if you excuse his April as playing while injured...he is above 1.000 OPS this year. He JUST turned 27...his defense seems to be getting better...why is this not a guy you build around? OPS 2015 0.698 2015 0.650 2016 0.633 2016 0.783 2017 0.850 2017 0.933 2018 0.830

I also think its time to point out that Fernando Tatis Jr, after 100 at bats in AA (2017/18) is hitting under .240, with 31 strikeouts, three walks and seven errors. Can we finally concede he's a total bust? I think the rebuild is much easier when we can draw long term conclusions after a couple of dozen games.

QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 2, 2018 -> 09:30 AM) Sadly he actually did go to AA and kept destroying. What did he destroy in AA??? He had a .608 OPS, 30% strike out rate and made 5 errors in 9 games at SS. Granted SSS and he was only 18 but he was terrible in his short stay.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jan 30, 2018 -> 01:21 PM) Which was well deserved, given his production. What I take issue with is people equating "Avi hate" to the Sox possibly moving him and not locking him up to a long extension after one season of positive production, after 1,500 AB's of putting up a 0.0 WAR in his career. There are always going to be extremes on this board. In the same 24 hour period we had a poster saying he has a decent chance of being non-tendered in 2018, and a poster calling him Roberto Clemente. Removing the goofball stuff, fans don't "hate" Avi Garcia. Reasonable skepticism isn't hate. In fairness it wasn't a goofball poster comparing Avi to Roberto Clemente...it was ZIPS projections. I merely pointed out that for the first 2500 at bats Roberto Clemente was bad and then had a break out season and was great for the next 13 seasons. It seems to me crazier to think this 26 year old coming off a 4.6 WAR is likely to be terrible because of what he did at 24 than to think he could be Clemente. He's under control for two more years...it seems prudent to wait and see if he maintains greatness than to trade him for someone that we could DREAM of putting up a 4.6 WAR at 25.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jan 30, 2018 -> 10:40 AM) I know great seasons and the lure of big money makes players forget earlier statements about staying with their current team but Avi has said he'd like to stay with the Sox "forever". ( Abreu has made similar statements). If Avi continues on an upward path like still hitting .300 but increasing HR to the 25-35 range and is somehow not traded he will be come the face of the franchise and a beloved player. I know many still think his production last year was a mirage and have a really difficult time wrapping their head around Avi becoming an actual superstar but it could happen. Avi and Eloy manning the corners as the cornerstones of the Sox . Avi the savvy veteran and the Kid. Dream big or don't dream at all . I like the dream big scenario. The Zips projection lists Avi's closest comparison as Roberto Clemente. Through Roberto's first 2500 AB's he had a slash line of .285/.306/.373 and had 10 WAR over that five years. Then something clicked and he went .330/.370/.475 and averaged 6.5 over the next 13 years. Yes Roberto clicked at a younger age but Avi lost a full year to injury. Both RF's with cannon arms. I think there has been way too much negative comments about Avi when he was young and then when he had a monster year last year everyone said..."well yes but this" and "well yes but that". Not every great player comes up as Mike Trout. Why is it outlandish that Avi has found the greatness that everyone saw in him when he was 20? I sure like the idea of Jimenez, Robert, Avi outfield if Avi is Clemente.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 08:00 AM) You have to have balance. You must be a young fan. Read your White Sox history on the Go Go White Sox. They usually had great pitching, solid defense and speed. Unfortunately weak hitting. Over their 10-15 year stretch the Go Go White Sox only Went Went to one World Series. If you were a Strat-o-matic fan in those days you pulled your hair out with that damn offense. I'm not a young fan...but this is a totally silly comment by you. Baseball in 1960 was a different game. Exactly one team from each division went to the playoffs. From 1957 to 1967 those speed/defense/pitching Sox teams won an average of 90 games a year and went to ONE playoffs. From 63-65 they won 94, 98 and 95 games and never went to the playoffs. IF in that ten season stretch the playoffs were like today...the Sox would have gone to and won a few world series because they had GREAT pitching, defense and speed. In a seven game series they would have beaten the Yankees a few times. But in that day you had to have a fully balanced team. You don't have to do that today. When the Diamondbacks won the WS they had Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling and a juiced up Luis Gonzalez and not much else. We learn every year that it is no longer who had the best team over 162 games as it was before the 1970's...it is who is hot with great starting pitching in the playoffs.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) Because you can't keep trotting out one of worst offenses in baseball and expect to win games even if you have 5 Chris Sales. 2017 Offense: 1B - Abreu looks to be completely average at this point and we have no idea if he will even come close to where he was ever again. 2B - Average at best SS - Unknown at this point & Sox have non-existant track record of developing any offensive player 3B - Hits homers and nothing else C - Overpay for Lucroy I guess? LF - Last year of Melky, average to maybe solid. CF - Likely a rookie or another dumpster dive RF - Solid to star level DH - Dumpster dive or a rookie Our pitching will be great again, but that lineup screams Honestly you are welcome to be as pessimistic as you want. But you are wrong about baseball...go look at the 2012 or 2014 Giants WS champs...their second best hitters were Melky and old sox farmhand Michael Morse. Who was the second best hitter on the 2005 Sox WS team? Jermaine Dye. The secret to all those teams is that they had no terrible hitters and great starting pitchers. We are a C and CF away from being that...and Collins and Engel are our two best looking prospects. Again...it may not work. But its not implausible. This path has worked multiple times in the last dozen years. Sure its nice to have a great offense and great pitching but its not necessary.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 03:56 PM) You make a lot of sense. I have struggled with the idea of a tear down also. I'll post about which organizations would be a good fit to trade Sale or Q but then turn around and say if Hahn had signed Ian Desmond and Dexter Fowler , guys that were easily obtainable late in the off season how good is this team then ? Or perhaps Daniel Murphy who as a 30 year old signed just a 3 year deal with the Nats( not some mega 6 year deal) and is having a career year. He's that LH middle of the order power bat we needed, Fowler the OBP and speed in CF we needed. Desmond also a cheap signing for depth who ends up getting his career back on track could have played SS which the Sox also needed or DH'd or converted to OF like the Nats did with him. Things could have gone much better this year. You add those guys and Rollins isn't signed, Avi spends the year in the minors, Sands isn't on the roster. Do I expect Hahn and the boys to make perfect moves ? No but I expect them to be better than they have been. They have to remember too much talent isn't a bad thing. That's the spirit. We've also added Anderson who looks like our shortstop for the next ten years. And if you like prospects...how about Adam Engel who was the AFL player of the year, and then after a slow start in Birmingham has been amazing. He's a good fielder and an on base machine with plus speed for Center field...they just have to wait for 2017. Even Collins might be ready by then...if not at catcher he would be automatically better than Avi at DH. This is not a broken machine...this is a half fixed machine...and we fixed the hardest part...great starting pitching. Baseball is a game that requires massive patience and yet because of its daily games its hard not to give up hope after a bad loss.

I think people are too pessimistic here. Since 2005 the World Series has been won four times with teams with dominant starting pitching (Sox and the Giants three times). The Mets gave a black eye to the Cubs because dominant starting pitching can beat dominant hitting. The White Sox had no choice to follow the path they are one because the stumbled upon Quintana, Sale became one of the best pitchers of all time, and they got lucky drafting Rodon. Now they look like they may have gotten lucky getting Fulmer as well. I'm not saying it WILL happen...but lets say in 2017 Rodon improves to Quintana level and Fulmer starts and is Rodon 2015...and James Shields or Gonzalez pitches the way they have in July. You will all agree the defense is WAY better this year than it was last year. You have Austin Jackson and the two catchers done after this year which frees up $11 million in salary (along with adam Laroches $12 million already in your pocket). You resign Frazier (I'm fine with a good fielding 3b who hits 40 home runs but only hits .220) and then sign Lucroy (still need a catcher as Collins is probably a few years away). Why is that not one of the best teams in baseball...or at least a team that can get into the playoffs and then throw four aces into every round of the playoffs? The idea of trading for prospects is exciting as potential is so tantalizing but 2015 #2 BA prospect was Byron Buxton who has a .580 OPS after his first 300 MLB at bats. We need to be patient...building a championship is a long process and I think we have come a long way in three years.

After 9 games in 1927 the 32 year old Babe Ruth was hitting .233 with only 1 homer and a .744 OPS. I think the Sox talk thread back then was "Ruth is washed up. Its clear he can't hit the fastball anymore. We should try to dump him for prospects". He managed to hit 60 homers and put up a 1.259 OPS that season. So, yeah, baseball takes time to unfold. Let's exhume Frazier.

QUOTE (ronkark @ Apr 17, 2016 -> 03:12 AM) Been holding off on raising this but I can't be the only one who is having LaRoche/Dunn/Thome flashbacks given Frazier's early struggles I can't keep it in anymore. He's batting .178 and that includes today's gift popup hit. 10K's in 45 at bats on pace for over 200. No he's not Dunn or LaRoche. But LaRoche was coming off a great first half, bad second half season and so is Todd. Also he's adjusting to AL, which the other two struggled with. I'm not overly confident he'll hit even .240 this year. And that will kill this team. Really really really hope it picks up soon. the offense has been hidden by stellar pitching but Todd, Abreu with 12 K's in 36 at bats, Rollins, Jackson, Avi Ugh, Avila, Navarro, Shuck. We can have 4 guys struggle. Not 8. Sooner rather than later please! It's the NFL equivalent of mid third quarter of the first game...and Matt Forte has only 40 yards rushing and a 3.2 yards per carry average...and you are panicking. Enjoy first place...enjoy the best record in the AL...and patience.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 07:07 PM) We've lost more than one run per game from LAST season's offense by trying to improve it in the off-season, and somehow simultaneously managed to degrade the defense as well. That said, they have no choice but to try to fix it on the fly again and hope like hell that either Tim Anderson, Micah Johnson or Courtney Hawkins are legit big league regulars (two out of three). I don't think they've "lost" more than a run per game from last season. There's a randomness to baseball...sometimes a .950 OPS guys has an .870 OPS 70 game stretch. Maybe Laroche has become old all of a sudden or maybe he's just had a bad stretch. Maybe it's just a string of bad luck. But what I think we know is that Sale for three years has been a legitimate ace with the stuff to throw a shut out every time. We know that Q has for three years been one of the better pitchers in baseball. That's your base from which you build. I think...hell everyone thinks the White Sox got very lucky with Rodon. It is not inconceivable that Rodon and Sale become Koufax and Drysdale...Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling. No one gets that kind of luck but when you have it you then try to patch and build around them. You add the very solid Q and then Fulmer and Eric Johnson...why is it crazy to think in two years you have the best rotation in baseball? The Brewers are a blow it up organization. The White Sox have Sale, Rodon and Q and it would be madness to give up now.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:55 PM) 4th in the NL with a 3.49 ERA, and they have a ridiculous amount of resources now to attract a top of the rotation starter. Really THAT'S your take away? Which of the Cubs starters would you trade straight up for Rodon, Sale or even Q? Hammel's old. Lester is old and expensive. Arrieta's is 30 and has a season and a half of success. Hendricks isn't good. And the POINT wasn't are the Cubs good...which I think they are...but they built around hitting and their pitching, irrespective of team ERA is a bit shaky. The Sox will lose Shark off their payroll next year and with five cheap starting pitchers can go out and sign two or three high priced free agents to make the team better.

I don't know why the extreme pessimism on this site...and Cameron is an idiot for talking about getting rid of Sale. The Cubs went into the tank for years and used it to build up a darn good potential lineup...but they have no pitching. The Sox, with a bit of luck, could have Sale, Rodon, Eric Johnson, Q and Fulmer and have maybe three 1's and two 2's...all under 27. All cheap. Sure they have holes at 2b, 3b, SS, C but they don't need STARS there. They need a team that can score four runs a game and play good defense. The Phillies and Giants have both used that strategy to build recent championship team. The Braves in the 90's were a great pitching team, the Mets in the 80's, the Orioles in the 70's. The Dodgers in the 60's, The Indians in the 50's. This is a legitimate strategy for winning and when the Sox stumbled upon Sale, Q and Rodon...dammit we need to keep on that path and not blow it up.

QUOTE (DOWNTOWN PANTHER @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 09:51 AM) Dont take my word for it. Check in with me at about midseason and let me know then. You guys dont have to shoot the messanger here. Alos, for the person comparing Adam Dunn to Reggie Jackson. Relax!! Baseball Reference.com page on Adam Dunn...just saying... Similar Batters through 30 View Similar Player Links in Pop-up Compare Stats to Similars 1.Jose Canseco (888) 2.Rocky Colavito (887) 3.Harmon Killebrew (883) * 4.Sammy Sosa (881) 5.Reggie Jackson (877) * 6.Darryl Strawberry (871) 7.Ralph Kiner (861) * 8.Jim Thome (857) 9.Barry Bonds (850) 10.Boog Powell (842) * - Signifies Hall of Famer

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 08:07 AM) I like Morel a lot, had him higher on prospect lists than others in the last few, and I think he's got a real shot at being the Sox 3B next year. That said, the guy has a torn labrum, and the Sox have a pretty big stack of 3B's right now, so keeping him home to get extra rest in the offseason is the right move. Where is the link to his torn labrum...I googled it and it only refers to Soxtalk and forums that got it from Sox talk. Seems as if Soxtalk got it from his face book page?