michelangelosmonkey

Right? And those sham Dodgers..."best team in baseball" for 9 years in a row...HA...average 95 "wins" a season...and then fail every post season except the covid short season. You win in the post season with a big budget. period. And until the White sox and Dodgers figure this out we at Soxtalk are doomed to a lifetime of disappointment.

The point remains...someone makes a nice optimistic comment and with absolute certainty someone on Soxtalk will pee on their head. To state categorically that management wont pay him is dark. Ive been pointing out for two years, in the face of the constant "White Sox are cheap, JR will never pay" comments that JR has had top 5 payrolls in 90s, 00s and 10's when the team was good and would again this year...and I was mocked. And now we are top 5 payroll and the negativity switches in a new direction...we pay stupidly. At least we can agree...if Moncado can get back to 2019 Moncado...this team will crush.

This is Soxtalk. Comment: "Moncado has been second best third baseman in all of baseball the last three years" Soxtalk chorus: "I see you are hiding the fact that he SUCKED before that and will suck in the future".

First I think IP is not a fair metric. If a pitcher is super efficient 8 innings could be the same number of pitches as a wilder pitchers 4 innings. Number of pitches thrown has always been the metric I've heard. Then I think these are two entirely different situations. Looking at Rodon at this point last year...they had just signed him for pocket change. He said he was ready to be a starter so they said...ok...starters throw 100 pitches per start...show us. Then he was REALLY good. And they never abused him...he only threw over 110 pitches once and that was in his no-hitter and it was only 114 pitches. They were consistent in his usage...throwing 95+ pitches in every start for the first 16 games and game 16 he pitched a one hitter. So it didn't look like he was tiring. Also they didn't have him under contract for the next season so it was an interesting gamble to push him to see if he was past his injury problems. Kopech on the other hand is the FRANCHISE...plus he's young and has never really pitched a big league schedule. I'm sure they are going to baby him as a starter this year as they babied him last year.

Every other major league team had a chance to sign Tatis a few months earlier for a million dollars, MLB pocket change. I will never let those other teams off the hook for their horrible evaluations. All Gm's in baseball are idiots and this has to be part of their legacy.

I mean...that's the point about the risk of Conforto...not this year but spending foolish on non core assets in 2023-2025. A players peak baseball years, by one google search, is 28-30. So we get this group of 10 guys that will be coming into or at their peak production for the next 5-6 years. We HAVE the team...we just have to figure out how to pay them...and how to replace them. So many here have talked about the white sox terrible farm system...and yet all of their top prospects are 21 or younger or fresh from Cuba. Between Cespedes, Colas, Montgomery, Popeye, Ramos, the high school arms, Vera...that next wave could be really good in two to three years when they are going to need them. I think they have been doing very smart planning for a long run and a big part of that is sensible budgeting.

Thanks Pete.

* Any fanbase that starts off with the premise "our owners, coaches and manager are idiots" would be perplexed by us not giving a QO to Rodon. There is CLEARLY concern about Rodon's future by the people that know him the best. They looked at it and said "We can't risk $18 million on this guy". Listen I wanted Rodon too...he was SO good last year...but it's a cold blooded business and by their actions they think his arm is going to fall off. * Kimbrel after coming off an arm injury in 19 and Covid crazy in 20 where he pitched a total of 35 innings...then came back in 21 and pitched 35 innings with a 1.1 FIP, a .71 Whip and 15 strikeouts a game...and then got tired and had a bad 20 innnings for the Sox. And EVERYONE HERE wants to throw him in the garbage can. Kimbrel had the 6th best fWar of all relief pitchers last year. HE GOT TIRED. We use this excuse all the time, sensibly, for players coming off injuries or COVID stuff...except Kimbrel. He's done, he's garbage...we should have cut him. * If they can get Conforto for $20 million for one year...man I'm contributing. But it's a risk for years 2-4...and we have exciting replacements in the pipeline. Go read some Future Sox stuff on Colas. As for hating the guys we got?? Graveman and Kelly are replacing Burr and Foster 2.50 ERA for 5 era over 75 innings. And Hamilton was a 2 War player last year and most of his career. * And Kopech, and Crochett, and Vaughn and Sheets and Gio and Bummer and Eloy...stop being upset about not overspending for some other teams cast off (I say this often but Met's are TRYING to win...know Conforto better than anyone...have an owner that spends money like crazy...and have said hard pass on Conforto.

Go look at the Oakland A's in the early 70's. They, like the White Sox right now, had a a core of maybe 8 players and pitchers under 27 that looked like they were going to be all timers...Reggie Jackson, Joe Rudi, Gene Tenace, Dave Duncan, Catfish Hunter, Vida Blue, Ken Holtzman and Rollie Fingers. They put some good seasoned players around that group and then won three straight WS's. Note that first WS team in 72, also had a crappy second baseman and a crappy RF (and a skin flint owner). I think Rick Hahn recognizes this...we could be on the brink of a dynasty...the only reason the A's didn't win two or three more WS is that the star players got expensive and the cheap owner sold off the team. Conforto 0f 2017-2020 would be great on this team. Conforto of last year would be nothing and a $100 million mistake contract could mean you can't afford Gio in a couple of years. Vegas and every power ranking thinks we are a top five team in all of baseball even if we put a snowman in rightfield. This is one of the great 26 and under core of players I can remember of any team...the key is to foster and grow that group for five or six years...and as fans we need to be EXCITED about it...and not drive ourselves crazy over an outfielder the Mets don't want.

It's so refreshing that you can see into the future and are able to let us know that every move the White Sox have made is going to turn out terrible. It's super that coming off a 93 win season with players that have barely scratched their potential you remind us we are doomed because we signed a 2War second baseman. It's so nice that you let us know that Dallas Keuchel who was a top five Cy Young candidate two years ago is washed up because he was terrible last year, and that Kimbrel who has had a hall of fame career and last year had four of the greatest months ever by a reliever but then finished off with a bad two months is also finished and yet Conforto who was a pretty good player two years ago and a very good player two years before that but was terrible last year is certain of a bounce back and we should sign him for $100 million. It's great that you can tell us that the same Conforto who was a -1 dWar last year and has had a negative dWar every year of his career will be a great RF and we are screwed if we try Vaughn/Engel combination. Its super that we hear over and over how cheap we are...until we are a top five payroll...and then you can nimbly switch to...it's not that we are cheap it's that we spend money stupidly. It's also great that even in the face of the evidence that the teams with the top 6 bullpens last year averaged 95 wins...we are morons for investing in our bullpen. Some people are half glass full, some are half glass empty...Soxtalk is the glass is half full of poison.

What didn't work? They're bullpen was second in baseball by fWar...they won the division and went to the playoffs in a very injured year. They traded for Kimbrel because at the trade deadline he was amazing and if he had kept it up...who knows? Much easier to analyze trades after six months...and Cody is hurt, Madigral is always hurt...maybe Kimbrel bounces back. Or, you know, we could just hate on everything.

Why not Keuchel as our extra starter? I know he was BAD last year...but he was top five CYA the year before that. He is a great fielding, crafty lefty. Right now we have four power arm righty starters...having Keuchel in the middle to screw up teams? I mean he's on the roster and costs no prospects. I know he is innings limited but with Lopez and Crochett and Keuchel it would seem like you could give everyone a bit of time off. If Keuchel is terrible by the trade deadline...well then hopefully some of the very young prospects will be getting some buzz and we can trade for a stud starter for the playoffs.

Well he IS slow. I agree with you that last year he was way better than I thought he was going to be. I think even...competent? I think he gets better as he figures out angles and positioning. But he's never going to be fast enough to be "good". Still...Castellanos, Conforto, Schwarber? None of those guys was a good defensive outfielder. If that's all we want...why can't Engel be that guy? And all those guys that will say "he can't stay healthy" are the same guys crying that Madrigal isn't with the team. I don't mind a plan where they throw creativity at the problem and not just money...because you will NEED that money eventually.

They are fifth in payroll (a figure I've been predicting for a year). They have LOTS of good players and not a single bad contract. As some players get more expensive, some (Keuchel, Kimbrel, Jose) drop off. That's really smart and allows you to keep your window going. If Colas or Cespedes are your RF next year (a suggestion I have been called an idiot for suggesting) will cost you nothing. You can't pay everyone (well the Dodgers can) which means you have to make smart choices as you go. Not spending a fortune in RF this year might be one of them. It's not sexy to be prudent but a long term winning team is very sexy.

I think this is such a good point. I don't want to do a couple of years of greatness...I want the White Sox to extend their window as long as possible and as sad as it may be for some...money matters. We are top five payroll, near $200 million right now. Giving 4/$80 for Conforto or Castellanos is financially risky. Over time you have to balance the higher paid old guys with the young cheap guys and the old meh guys. The $20 million you pay this year for Conforto is fine...but it ties your hands for 23,24 and 25. As I watch Hahn I think that is what he is doing. I don't want to see the team unable to sign Gio long term in 2024, or TA in 2025 because we are weighted down by the Conforto contract. Especially because I don't think Conforto will be materially better in RF (fWar) than the Hydra...but will cost $15 million more a year. Plus the Hydra gets valuable experience and AB's. Because they have been prudent with contracts when the trade deadline comes they can swoop in and make a big move from a floundering team. As for the stupid bullpen spending (by most on here) last year five of the six teams teams with the best bullpens (by fWar) went to the playoffs and Seattle won 90 games but didn't go. Last year the White Sox were #2 in relief fWar...and you had Matt Foster, Evan Marshall and Ryan Burr pitch in a 100 games with a FIP around 5. You replace those innings with Graveman, Kimbrel and Kelly and you can't get excited by that?? We have a seriously stacked bullpen...and yes maybe one or two will go down...but man Bummer should be better, Kimbrel better, Crochet better...and percolating arms in the minors.

Whoops...stupid Exel...Put in Gio at 27

Really young teams rarely win right away. They ran into a hot pitcher and the Astros are a bad match for the Sox pitching staff (power staff against the best fast ball hitting team in the leauge). Still to draw wild conclusions on 4 games? To say they are worse is just being dark.

OMG...so no one here sees internal growth with: Name Age Garrett Crochet 22 Andrew Vaughn 23 Luis Robert 23 Eloy Jimenez 24 Nick Madrigal 24 Romy Gonzalez 24 Gavin Sheets 25 Dylan Cease 25 Michael Kopech 25 Yoan Moncada 26 No one has a core of 26 and younger guys that are as good as this group. And we have no bad contracts on the books. And right now we have a top five payroll...we will b**** about everything.

That's fair but at this point in their window I think a teams payroll becomes more important than the prospects. It's one of the problems with handing out a $20 million per for four years to Conforto...we're going to want that payroll flexibility in 23, 24 to resign Gio, make a trade deadline splash, extend Vaughn.

The negativity here is just unbelievable. Here we are coming off a 93 win season that wasn't even better because of terrible injury luck, we got young stars all over the diamond, we have five starting pitchers that could win the Cy Young (Keuchel was top five in Cy Young voting ONE YEAR AGO), the defense up the middle is as good as any team, we have a bullpen that had great pieces and we've just added two of the best arms available making them arguably the best bullpen in the league...Vegas and every power ranking around has us as a top five team...and post after post after post is "everything sucks" and the only thing that can fix this team is if we get this aging, below average defensive outfielder who had a career worst season (Keuchel is done but Conforto just had a one off??) whom the Mets trying desperately to win, with money no object, and knowing their players better than anyone say, hard pass? Let's see how things play out. It's in the 50's tomorrow....spring is in the air...can we just try to pretend we are at the most exciting time ever to be a Sox fan?

Wait until next year...I have argued before if you don't look at farm system rankings but rankings of a teams young players 23-26 and very young players 22-18 the White Sox would be near the top in both. The problem for the Sox farm system is all of the high end talent is either in the majors or newly arrived. If you can't get excited about Vega, Montgomery, Colas, Kath, Cespedes and all the high school arms...give it a year.

I'm not sure why this is controversial. You are basically exchanging 28 year old Olson for 32 year old Freeman. Each with a .900ish OPS last year. One is much cheaper. This is the kind of cold bloodedness that I hope the White Sox display. If Abreu has another good year this year and then wants a 5 year $100 million contract...I HOPE they don't get sentimental and offer it to him.

Before we anoint Nick...he played 6 games after May last year. He had a major injury the year before. He had a major injury in his last year in college. I loved his potential but is he not the positional equivalent of Rodon?

I was begging for Rodon to come back...and have been in mourning since...he's exactly what the team needs...a power pitching lefty...if he's as good going forward as he was in 2021 you have five aces. But honestly...you can't listen to what management says, you have to watch what they do. No one knows Rodon better than Katz. I have great respect for Katz. Katz basically said...not at any price. If they really believed he was ready to become a stud for three years they would have inked him to 3/60 before the lockout. If they were certain he would pass physicals they would have given him a QO. I just think they think they were dealing with a ticking bomb.

Ugh...I'm NOT talking about Vaughn being the RF forever. He seems to be coordinated and smart...just slow...and has a potentially amazing bat...and he's 24...and 1b is blocked...and he's cheap...and he fixes one of three problems you have. I don't see a good 2b solution internally and I'd rather spend money on pitching. i think Rodon over Keuchel is WAY greater than Conforto over Vaughn.