michelangelosmonkey

I came here to read about the exciting concept of the White Sox adding Semien's 40 home run power and plus defense to a team that is already stacked...and of course it is nothing but the constant idiotic narrative of the White Sox being a cheap team...I know I have written it a hundred times...but the 00's, 90's and 80's when they had good teams they were a top five payroll...some one wrote in another thread about the 2005 team only being 15th in payroll...or some such nonsense...no one expected the 2005 team to be great...attendance wasn't great initially...but then they won, fans came out in droves and the next year they were 4th in payroll and again in 2007 and 5th in 2008. Yes they have also always been cheap when the team is bad...as a businessman this makes perfect sense to me. A top five payroll in 2021 would have been $190 million. The likely increase in attendance pays for that (Sox fans have proven over the years they will come out for a winner). So given their current commitments they can EASILY afford Semien. So adding him and letting Vaughn play right field...your worst hitter is probably lefty Sheets at DH who put up an .800+ OPS as a rookie. That team will score 9 runs a game.

Caulfield I would be happy to send you some optimism juice. It's the offseason and the time for hope...and as I have written now multiple times...it seems very likely (barely a strike) that our attendance will boom and JR always spends when attendance is big. We have been very cautious with our money to this point (I don't think any really bad contracts right now) so it might be the year to swing for the fences. Also I didn't see where Rodon was lost...I thought QO is the route to go if they still want him. You could make the argument to get Robbie Ray instead...both lefties...both dominant when their stuff is good. I just think RR will get a bigger offer but if you have one BIG contract to offer...Semien or RR...I'm good with either....I just think you can get Rodon on a short term deal because of the risk.

I don't hate the idea of trading the crumbling K's for reallocation of salary...but I also don't hate the idea of using Vaughn in RF everyday, give Collins one more chance (I know, I know...I just can't help but be tantalized by lefty power hitting potential) sign Semien and Rodon and keep Kimbrell for a chance at a dominating bullpen. Semien would be...what $25 a year? Rodon $20...and you still have a few dollars left over from my $50 million budget expansion to sign Leury.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Kimbrel wasn't the same dominant pitcher. Kimbrel had 3.6 WAR in 2017 and was amazing....16 strike outs per nine/ WHIP of .68. He had a "down" year in 2018, and still had a 2.3 WAR, 2.7 ERA, struck out 14 batters per 9, 42 saves, 5 wins...and then saved six games in the playoffs.. He pitched a whopping 73 innings that year which probably led to his arm problems in 2019...he only pitched 20 inning that year...and then 15 innings in the COVID year. Then this year through July he was again amazing like he has been most of his career. Through 36 innings he was having one of the great relief years of all time...and yes he was terrible over 23 innings with the White Sox, but we give Rodon and others an excuse of being tired at the end of the year. Why don't we give the same pass to Kimbrel? He is getting older and I think it would be crazy to sign him to a three year extension at $16 million per year...but to bring him back for one more shot doesn't seem crazy...and yes the money...it's a lot to spend for relievers but as I wrote in a different thread, the White Sox baseline attendance historically seems around 20,000 a game...when they are really good (mid 90's, mid-00's) they draw over 30,000...and peaked at 36,000. If they draw 32,000 a game on average the next five years that should easily free up an extra $50 million in payroll over base payroll. JR has had top five payrolls in the 90s and 00s and I think he will again.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Kimbrel wasn't the same dominant pitcher. Kimbrel had 3.6 WAR in 2017 and was amazing....16 strike outs per nine/ WHIP of .68. He had a "down" year in 2018, and still had a 2.3 WAR, 2.7 ERA, struck out 14 batters per 9, 42 saves, 5 wins...and then saved six games in the playoffs.. He pitched a whopping 73 innings that year which probably led to his arm problems in 2019...he only pitched 20 inning that year...and then 15 innings in the COVID year. Then this year through July he was again amazing like he has been most of his career. Through 36 innings he was having one of the great relief years of all time...and yes he was terrible over 23 innings with the White Sox, but we give Rodon and others an excuse of being tired at the end of the year. Why don't we give the same pass to Kimbrel? He is getting older and I think it would be crazy to sign him to a three year extension at $16 million per year...but to bring him back for one more shot doesn't seem crazy...and yes the money...it's a lot to spend for relievers but as I wrote in a different thread, the White Sox baseline attendance historically seems around 20,000 a game...when they are really good (mid 90's, mid-00's) they draw over 30,000...and peaked at 36,000. If they draw 32,000 a game on average the next five years that should easily free up an extra $50 million in payroll over base payroll. JR has had top five payrolls in the 90s and 00s and I think he will again.

Seems like White Sox attendance baseline is about 20,000 fans a game. When they are really good...mid 90's, mid 00's...they averaged over 30,000 a game. Last year after they opened up to full attendance it was 27,000 a game...with still some COVID hesitancy. At the peak, 2006 they drew more than 36,000 a game. I think this is a very exciting team, Cubs are on the downside, people are ready for sports again...an average attendance over the next five years of 32,000 fans a game doesn't seem aggressive. That's 12,000 a game over 80 games means more than a million additional fans (from baseline which I'm sure is how JR sees it for budgeting purposes). A million extra fans with all ancillary spending would suggest $100 million extra revenue per year from base for the window. Take half of that for extra spending and yes...I would be REALLY pissed if they didn't hand out a couple of big contracts this off season. As for the haters on this site...we were a top five spending team in the 80's, 90's and 00's when we had a competitive team. JR spends when people come to the game...sadly our baseline isn't great when the teams not great (like Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs who draw no matter what) his "cheapness" is a myth. PLUS he's a baseball fan who is close to death and would like to see them win again and we all think they are close...I would be less surprised at an offseason signing of Semien and Rodon than an off season signing of nothing.

Since they're in their window? An extra 500,000 fans at $100 revenue per fan is $50 million extra to spend. $25 mill per on Robbie Ray and $10 mill for Taylor...and JR and the boys still have a nice bonus.

If we believe...which I do, that Vaughn becomes an elite hitter...the splits aren't so important. Yes Vaughn was bad against righties last year...but look at someone like Austin Riley...you don't get to .900 OPS for the season without also pounding righties. If the second problem is the bench?? I don't think you fail because you lack Leury Garcia. If that's true...well resign him. You can also sign someone like Chris Taylor for not too much money. I just don't like the idea of blocking 25 year old Vaughn to replace him with an aging known quantity. Part of this organization's peak potential is with Vaughn really breaking out next year. Yes it's a bit of a dice roll...but man I sure like that dice roll better than last year some of the hot RF's...Jackie Bradley JR (-0.7 WAR last year), Joc Pederson (0.0 WAR) or Adam Eaton (-0.7 WAR).

Why is Vaughn not the answer? Seriously...we are looking at 35 year old McCuthchen at a .780 OPS and a -1.5 dWar? Vaughn is only 24 and last year after never really playing OF before he looked like he could handle it. He's not ever going to be a great defensive outfielder but If you have Eloy, Vaughn and Robert all 25 and you can slot them into the outfield for the next five years and they hit 110 home runs/year while collectively batting .333...who cares if they give up a few extra runs? I feel like they will give out one big contract this off season...two if they can deal the crumbling K's...you let Romy hold 2b and then sign Robbie Ray. That rotation of Gio, Lynn, Cease, Kopech and Ray could be exciting.

I like Jirschele too. In a disaster of a minor league season for the Sox. JJ led the Barons, who didn't have many of the Sox top 30 prospects, to a winning record. I think he's won at every level that he's managed. I was hoping for him before the TLR decision but understood because he was only 30 and I'm not sure you hand the keys of the Ferrari over to a kid. Another year of success by him...and TLR mixed results...who knows.

The meatball nature of this negativity is amazing. There is a randomness to baseball. it used to be the best teams met in the World Series because only the top team in the AL and the top team in the NL went to the playoffs. You had 154 games to decide who was the best team and it was hard to debate with a sample size of 154 games. Now most of you have determined that the White Sox are a mess based on a sample size of two games?? Zeby Savala had 90 at bats where he hit .128 with 2 home runs. He had two games where he went 6 for 7 with 3 home runs. Can we say based on those two games that Zeby is the greatest player of all time...or was it just randomness? The core of this team has greatness inside of it. I don't think anyone of us thought that this was going to be the best team of the run. If they lose on Sunday are are swept away...well it was an exciting year...and it will be an interesting off season and next year will be exciting too. If they win on Sunday...well it's NOT over...as a Bucks fan, the Bucks lost the first two games of the conference semi finals, the first game at home in the conference finals and the first two games of the finals. Teams can come back. And it is worth remembering...Dodgers won an average of 96 games a year for 7 years and won zero world series...and it was only in the COVID shortened season that they finally won. Enjoy the day to day greatness of the team because in a winner take all series even Baltimore could have a few good days.

What I remember of the 2005 team was the crazy bullpen...a bunch of fringe prospects and journeymen became unhittable for a year. Politte, Cotts and Hermanson pitched every game with sub 2.00 ERA. Sort of the opposite of this team with undeniable talent with unspeakable results.

I think maybe 94 team is best comparison? Superstars like Thomas, Raines and Ventura and a bunch of pretty good others. Four power starting pitchers. Thing about this team is everyone is 26 or younger.

Weird what they are doing at catcher. TLR is so old school which means 1) never have catcher in day game after night game 2) lefty hitter versus righty pitcher....yet Collins sits? I know this will call in the cascade of COLLINS SUCKS...but he made a couple of game savings stops at catcher in the 10th/11th last night. He's been on base 6 of his last 11 plate appearances...and honestly Zeby is not good...outside of his one magic game his slash line is .171/.236/.234, he's had 7 passed balls in 24 games started and thrown out 5% of base stealers. I wonder if Collins is hated in the clubhouse or told TLR that he doesn't like dogs or something. I honestly hope they send Collins down and let him start at catcher in AAA and then quietly trade him in the off season...their handling of him has been so odd.

It's curious following the minor leagues solely through the lens of the major leagues. It honestly doesn't matter to me if the combined minor leagues lose every night as long as they produce three or four interesting pieces to add to the White Sox or use as trade pieces. I think that is where we are at right now...the major league roster is so young and talented that it doesn't matter that you have hundreds of pretty good minor league players that will help Kannapolis win 60% of their games. You want potential stars to add to our existing galaxy. You say it's too bad they have no pitching...yet Gio-26, Cease-25, Kopech-25, Crochett-22 should be in your starting staff for five years. What you need is to see the high school kids slowly developing so you have a second wave. Vera, Thompson, Kelly, Dalquist, Burke and McDougal are all 18-21 with great stuff...we just have to be patient with them as they rise through the system.

He only started 11 out of 21 games between the 5th and the 31st...he came in as a pinch hitter or took over after Z was removed for a pinch hitter. He has been BAD...but I don't think it's a fair trial. I get that we are trying to win but to give Z half the starts after Grandal's injury...why? Why not the Navarez here you go...prove it...stretch.

And a .500 record...which would be better than Musgrove the last three months.

Since the first two games in early April Musgrove is 6-8 with a 3.50+ ERA for a great team...and he would have cost, as someone suggested Kelley, Beard and Rodriguez. I know you are going to FIP and FWAR me to death but...8-8 total for an elite team with a 3.11 ERA in the National League...at some point you FIPsters are going to have to acknowledge that the stats don't work for some guys...Musgrove had elite FIP for Pittsburgh and yet never won...now he's over at the Padres...that team that most Soxtalkers wish we had...and he's OK...solidly OK. If we sign him we don't bring back Rodon who has been elite...and Rodriquez is our top prospect today...and Reylo sure is interesting...for free.

How do you get in a rhythm when he catches every third day? Catching is hard to learn...he's changed his catching style this year to kneeling...has a new catching coach...and he's only 26. When I looked at it back in mid June Collins ERA while catching was lower than Grandals...again not entirely his doing as he was Rodon and Gio's personal catcher...but he must call a pretty good game or they wouldn't want him as their personal catcher...Gio called him a "student of the game". Meanwhile framing is the dumbest metric...he's really bad at keeping the umpires from being really bad? So when we go to robot umps suddenly Collins is a lefty power hitter with lots of walks and calls a good game and we let him get away? Like Reylo...let them develop.

I think their handling of Collins has been weird. Grandal got hurt on July 5th and the White Sox have played 36 games since then and Collins has started 16 of them. It seems clear that management doesn't think he can do it. I wish they had given him 25 starts in a row to prove it...like they did with Narvaez in 2018. They put guys like Engel in only super advantageous hitting matchups and yet Collins is always facing tough lefties because of the pitchers he catches for. Not everyone pans out...and at one point it seemed like they had a clever long term plan for Collins...now I just think they hate him. but not as much as Soxtalk HATES him (but again...like they hated Reylo until reylo started pitching well...we get 10,000 HE SUCKS and then when he turns it around three or four...well I guess I was wrong).

Collins has been terrible this past 6 weeks. Reylo was the worst pitcher in baseball last year. Gio was the worst pitcher in baseball in 2018. Rodon was a wasted top four draft pick. All have extraordinary potential. I am happy to admit that Collins has lost his confidence and has been terrible the last six weeks...but again...as recently as July 1st he had a .733 OPS, had caught a no hitter and was the preferred catcher for two of our best pitchers...and a lefty back up catcher. We will all cheer when we cut Collins loose this off season, as we did when Avasail left, and in a quiet move Tampa or Oakland or Milwaukee picks him up. Until then I will just get used to the deep thoughtful analysis, 10,000 times a game, of COLLINS SUCKS....just like I got used to the REYLO SUCKS chants.

I got mocked here a lot back in the off season, in the Joe Musgrove thread, when I suggested we under rate our own potential guys and fall in love with some other teams potential guys. I argued that while JM had intriguing potential there were warning signs and he was going to cost a lot of assets while Reylo had upside and cost nothing....hahahahahahaha you are stupid...Reylo is trash and JM is amazing, I was told. I'm not sure I believe in the new Reylo...but I also never believed in the loud "HE IS GARBAGE" stuff. In 2018, at 24, Reylo pitched 180+ innings and had a 3.5 WAR. That guy is in there somewhere...yet at 26 he was worth nothing?? Chris Bassitt who we were all lamenting was another one that got away...has been one of the best pitchers in baseball the last three years...was nothing until he turned 30. I made the same argument with Rodon at the start of the season...that there were comparable pitchers that had history of arm problems and then in their late twenties were past it and had very good careers (I used Mike Minor who starting at 29 put up 14 WAR in three years after missing two and a half years with arm problems). At some point we have to be patient when a guy doesn't perform as opposed to falling all over ourselves to see who can shout the loudest "HE SUCKS". And in an unrelated note maybe we can ratchet back the 10,000 posts per gamethread that shout "Collins sucks"...maybe as a fan base we can start cheering for our guys and rooting against the other teams guys?

Yes but Eloy has 46 homers and 123 RBIs in 180 career games, Grandal's average year is 90 walks and 27 homers, Robert might be the best all around player I've ever seen on the Sox and Madrigal (I'm going to miss him) has a career .317 batting average. Why couldn't it be Leury and Goodwin and Collins that were hurt and out most of the season? But man...when we get all the pieces together!!!!

Sorry but if the Sox trade Burger for Blackmon and Story...I would get in my time machine and go back to Dec 2019 and explain to Rockies baseball fans how this was going to happen within 18 months and then get locked up for being a lunatic.

Frank Howard had a ten year stretch where he had -20 dWar and was STILL +40 WAR. I don't love the idea of Vaughn being the full time RF...but I think his fielding will not cost nearly as many runs as his hitting will create...especially when Robert is back covering 3/4 of the outfield by himself. Still Cali's passion of getting lefty Joe Gallo to help this year and next before Cespedes is ready while working with VAughan/Eloy/Sheets/Abreu combo for LF/iB/DH is the best route.