T R U

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 02:56 PM) This is all I want to see please. I said I thought both teams won, I liked Denvers return better though. Both teams got what they wanted out of it. Most of the response has made it seem like I am against what the Bears have done and I think Denver fleeced them. Which I don't. What I meant by that is, if that's how you want to view this then I will be more than happy to just bash on the Bears and Cutler if no one is going to look at it both ways. Its not a threat, but why would I continue to say I liked both ends of the deal if I am being made to look like I am some huge Denver/McDaniels supporter? Do you understand what I am saying here now.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 02:54 PM) What are we arguing? You said you wanted people to pay attention to you or you would show how the Bears are totally f***ed. I'm just waiting to see that threat come to life. So far you said Cutlers a crybaby, its windy in Chicago, we dont have Brandon Marshall, and Daniels 2 years in NE proves he will turn anyone into Tom Brady. I still dont see how the Bears have f***ed themselves in that scenario. Cutler's Qb rating is 7 points higher than the GREATEST season a Bears QB has had since that stat was in place. I want to see this flip side argument that you keep threatening to bring up. Thats all. Call it Bears fan enlightenment. I said the Bears needed Cutler and it was something they had to do, and yet most of the response here seemed like I was saying the Bears got raped and Denver made off like bandits which wasn't the case at all. You asked how the Bears could be f***ed, I presented you with numerous examples of how that could happen. So how about you chill the f*** out and stop claiming I am threatening the board or some s***. You obviously didn't understand it, what I said was instead of saying both teams won here, but I like Denver returns better I could have easily just laughed at the Bears for giving up what they did and said there was no way Cutler would have the same success he did in Denver. Thats what people were making it look like I was doing, which I wasn't trying to.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 02:49 PM) The Bears might have also turned Bennett into a potential first round pick with the acquisition. I realize he was a 3rd round pick, but all of a sudden he becomes a better WR (we'll have to see if it happens, but I think it will, plus Bennett has a lot of talent and was someone most draft experts raved about as being a guy with a lot of upside last year when the Bears drafted him). Greg Olsen might just make the leap to being an elite TE. Forte could prove to be an elite RB because of this (maybe not as explosive as Faulk or Tomilson, but in a similar range with an ability to get 1000 rushing and 1000 receiving yards). Hester might be able to make the jump from being a 750 yard WR to a 1000 yard WR with a QB who can make him better and best yet, good QB's can make good WR's great. It doesn't work the other way around, imo. I think great WR's can make a serviceable QB solid, but not a good QB great or elite. Plus the Bears now have a whole different image, expectation, and ora and there should be something said about that. In general, I think the Bears just found the solution to there WR problem and it involved getting a QB with the chance to be elite (and compare his numbers to all the greats and they are on par thus far) as he makes every WR on the roster better and will make it much easier for the Bears to develop or sign WR's (you don't think that the Bears didn't become an attractive place for any WR thats a FA, think again, cause if I'm a good WR, one of the first things I look at aside from money is whose throwing me the ball, and Cutler did a great f***ing job getting two above average WR's numbers). Oh and if the Bears get Plaxico, Jones or Holt, I'll go as far as saying that the Bears are legit superbowl contenders and that will be the first time I've said that in some time. Scoop Jackson said it best regarding this trade, basically indicated how important it is to the franchise and that it puts them as immediate favorites in the division but they still are a few holes short of being superbowl contenders but those holes can be addressed now or in a few years as the whole landscape of the franchise has been changed. You're right Cutler does make other people better with his presence, but do you think the Bears are going to change their offense now and throw the ball over 600 times a season? They still need to help out the offensive line, which they are trying to do with adding Pace. How about the defense though? They have gotten progressively worse, that's another thing they need to address. Bennett could very well become better with Cutler at QB now, but I don't think adding Cutler changes his talent level. Do you think that now because Cutler is here he is all of the sudden going to get it? Maybe, well see how that plays out. They need to fill some more holes before they become super bowl contenders, but they have a nice start so far.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 02:48 PM) Was this supposed to prove the bears were f***ed? It looks like alot of opinions and what ifs including things like weather conditions, even going so far as to use Cutler's media quotes to call him a crybaby. Losing 2 draft picks is why? I need more explanation as your original quote sounded like a threat to the board that you were going to blow up our good moods with some serious evidence on how the Bears have screwed themselves for years for trading 2 first round picks and a fringe starting QB. Feel free to really put it out there this time. Take however you want, don't really care bro. You're a Bears fan, there is no point in trying to argue it with you.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 02:40 PM) And the biggest problem I have with your statements is you said that "Denver easily won this trade" and now have backtracked to statements like: I haven't backtracked at all, I still feel Denver won the trade. That doesn't change the fact that the picks they select can bust out while Cutler succeeds in Chicago. I don't think that is going to happen, but for argument sake I had to present that side of it so people don't think im just trying to hate on this deal. Matt Cassel hadn't started a game since high school and looked like a star in McDaniels system. And I don't want to hear about Randy Moss because he didn't even have that great of a year anyways. I agree with you that the jury is still out on him, but you cant ignore the fact that his system so far has given results.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 01:45 PM) This is the NFL. You can't just look at whether or not a team let someone walk on its own, you have to look at the salary issues as well. Cutting Pace for this year saved the Rams $6 million in cap space. That's more than he'll cost the Bears by a fair amount I believe. And the Bears started off the FA period with significantly more cap room than the Rams had. You're right, that does play a part in it. However, you usually see that with teams that no longer need said player. The Rams offensive line was terrible, and Pace had been one of the faces of their franchise but they had to cut ties with him for more reasons than just being owed $6 million. Of course its going to cost the Bears significantly less to have Pace on their team, older players who get cut usually don't get equal or more money than they were on their previous deal. Like I said, I think that he can be decent this year if he stays healthy but I wouldn't say he has a few very good years left in him.

QUOTE (Brian @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 02:15 PM) TRU, post pics if you go to AXXess. Especially the ones of Mickie James hitting on you and you turning her down. Ha After we found out we were only going to see Batista my little sister got mad and we now have tickets for tonight as well to see HHH, HBK, and Edge! Im pumped, and I will try and get some good pictures to post up..

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 02:00 PM) Please turn it into why the Bears are f***ed, I'd like to see it. Cutler was sacked 11 times last season, the Bears offensive line is nowhere near as good as Denvers so lets say Cutler gets beat up more this season.. You can also throw in the fact that he had better targets to throw to in Denver so now lets say that also adds a dip in his performance. How about weather conditions? How about the fact that Cutler was quick to turn into the biggest cry baby in the league when Denver only tried to get the guy McDaniels wanted? There are plenty of reasons as to why Cutler can come to Chicago and be a huge disappointment while the Broncos could add some big pieces to their team and future with what they have acquired from this deal. Not to mention the chance that Orton has a similar if not better season than Cutler next year given the circumstances. Of course, Cutler could also flourish and the Broncos can get nothing from those picks and Orton as well. Its a two way street and we wont know for a few years, however, I would rather have Orton, two firsts, and an extra third over Cutler when you see what QBs have done in McDaniels system. I think it was a good move for the Bears, however, all the Bears fans on this board seem to think im trying to say they got the raw end of a deal here when im not. I would just prefer what Denver know has, but the Bears also needed a true franchise QB. They still have a lot of needs though and not having those picks could also factor in to why they could be f***ed.

QUOTE (rangercal @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 01:29 PM) The Bears have had s***ty results in the 1st round draft for about 20 years now. Yet, I like the position the franchise is in. I don't think 2 1st round draft picks that we would have blown anyway are going to make our break us. Read Daa84's posts the last few pages to see what value we really gave up. NO! I will not read his post again because it makes NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER You can NOT use the draft value chart when talking about trading for proven commodities. That is completely pointless. Yes I understand the Giants paid more for Eli Manning, that's because that's how its done when you move up in the draft, you follow that chart. When Detroit traded Roy Williams I doubt they looked at their chart and told Dallas they needed to put together a package that exceeded 4,000 in value.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 01:27 PM) Dude, you cannot convince me they mortgaged their future by acquiring a soon to be 26 year old All-Pro quarterback. So we can't blow our first rounder on a Cedric Benson this year, big whoop, we've still got our 2nd, we've still got a 3rd, and we have an extra fifth. Ok, I understand the Bears have not been good drafters in the first round but that still doesn't mean you can dismiss two first round picks like they don't mean anything when they are probably the most valued commodities in the NFL. Also, I would just like to point out that Jay Cutler is NOT an all pro, that was Peyton Manning and Drew Brees. He was voted to the pro bowl, much like Brett Favre was.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 10:49 AM) No one said he's still the freak that came out of Ohio State. He can definitely be very good this year, which is all I said. Its hard to believe he is going to be very good this year when St. Louis had one of the worst OLines in the league and were happy to let him walk. I dunno how much he has left in the tank, but I think best bet is he is decent this year. Anything more than that would be a surprise imo.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 3, 2009 -> 08:35 AM) Cutler 2008: 8 games of 300+ yards passing Bears Franchise Single Season Record: 4 games of 300+ yards passing IMMEDIATELY THE BEST QB IN FRANCHISE HISTORY... 25 year old Pro Bowl Quarterbacks just don't come available. For a team that has stockpiled picks for this year, it was perfect. And Carl, let's be real. You said the Broncos won the trade, which is just blatantly incorrect. The Denver Broncos got fair value for Cutler, sure, but they did not win this trade. Trading a 25 year old guy of Cutler's calibre is idiotic. Ask them how Jake "The Snake" was working out, or Brian Griese for that matter. The Broncos have been spoiled at the position with Elway, and then got Cutler and thought it was easy. Enjoy Orton, or Sanchez, or whatever bust you're going to pick. Not many make it and to assume that you'll easily plug the hole is laughable. Big win for the Bears, as they finally solved a problem that has haunted them for 60 years. Sorry, Broncos won that deal. And I know you got your Bears glasses on right now, but take em off and maybe you'll see Griese and Plummer both had some very good seasons with the Broncos. The Bears mortgaged their future for a guy who is 17-20 as a starter and has never had a winning season. If you guys wanna keep ignoring what I have been saying about this I can easily turn this into a why this was a terrible deal for the Bears and how they are now f***ed.

QUOTE (RME JICO @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 10:39 PM) How is Denver better positioned now, because they have more draft picks? I guarantee every GM in the league would take a Pro Bowl QB in his mid-20's over a couple of 1st round draft picks any day of the week. Denver is now in a worse position because they are severely downgraded at the QB position, and all they have to show for the trade is unknown players from the draft and Orton. Also the Bears pick was only the 18th overall, which is at a point in the draft where there are very few sure things. I think Denver is risking more in this deal, and may end out on top eventually if both 1st rounders turn out to be something special, but right now the Bears won this trade hands down. Give me a break, that's like saying if they traded Cutler for every Bears 1st round pick for the rest of the existence of the NFL the Bears still win hands down because "Of unknown players". Obviously you cant guarantee every GM in the league would take a mid 20s pro bowl QB over draft picks because Denver just traded one for a couple of picks. A sever downgrade is a bit extreme seeing as Cutlers numbers weren't THAT more eye popping than Ortons. Cutler also threw the ball close to 200 times more with better receivers. And come on, this isn't baseball.. the draft is THE way to stock your team with talent. And im sorry, but if you think the 18th pick is only "meh" something is wrong with you. There is going to be plenty of high end talent on the board at that pick. The Yankees could never have another first round pick ever again and be perfectly fine, while an NFL team that never got another 1st round pick again would suffer. I guess we will see who "wins" this trade in a couple of years, until then im sticking with the Broncos and also saying once again I don't think the Bears did bad here at all and got what they really needed. I just like what Denver is set up for better.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 10:00 PM) Well then we disagree. You dont trade QB's who have the potential to be franchise players. I still don't understand what we are disagreeing on aside from the fact I thought Denver got plenty for Jay Cutler. I agree they shouldn't have traded him but for some reason McDaniels didn't want him at QB. However, they still got a s*** load for him and McDaniels can get his guy and then some now. Denver has put a lot into Josh McDaniels and seem content with letting him set this team up how he wants it. I seriously doubt hes out in one year if they don't do so good, but he has no excuse now if he doesn't build something special in Denver with the amount of high end picks they have over the next two seasons. And like previously said, Orton can at least be serviceable for them until they get their guy. Its not totally bare in Denver, and if they can improve the defense they wont be that bad.

QUOTE (rockren @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:55 PM) Which makes me wonder how the hell Bowlen ever hired McDaniels in the first place. I wonder if he actually said in the interview process..."Yeah I'd like to get rid of that QB you have. I'll bring in a real winner. Who needs 4500 yards passing?" Who knows, I don't even understand why they fired Shanahan to begin with. But, obviously, Bowlen had to be on board with getting rid of Cutler as well or he would have stepped in here. This is a major business, it doesn't matter if he hurts McDaniels feelings or not but he could have easily said, sorry Josh but we aren't trading Cutler.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:49 PM) The reason you sound like a McDaniels supporter is you are making it seem like Orton is going to be great because he is going to McDaniels system. As for McDaniels not wanting Cutler, I think its more "McDaniels wanted Cassel because he felt comfortable with him and hes a 31 year old coach with absolutely no head coaching experience who is completely over his head, then when he missed on Cassel his star QB found out, his coach is to inexperienced to deal with player friction and the owner is forced to support the coach because he just fired one of the most successful if not most successful Broncos head coach." Bottom line is that McDaniels should have been the biggest Cutler supporter. I have never once said Orton is going to be great. I said Orton was decent, and it was better than going from Cutler to nothing. When you add in the fact that McDaniels system made Matt Cassel an instant millionaire I don't think their fall off is going to be as extreme as people make it seem. McDaniels KNEW what Denver had when he accepted that job, and he still wanted Matt Cassel instead of Jay Cutler. That tells me enough right there. Its either going to work out or its not, I still think Denver is better positioned overall now from this deal.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:45 PM) When you inherit a team that is already good at throwing the ball, why do you screw with that to bring in your "guy"? My answer is that either McDaniels is arrogant or hes scared. Either answer isnt very good for a coach. Most offensive coordinators would have died to inherit Cutler, Marshall and Royal. All they had to do was bring in a rb and the offense is elite. But hey, Im no Josh McDaniels. I don't disagree with any of that But for some reason, Josh McDaniels wants his guy and not Cutler. And either way, the offense isn't the problem, the defense is. If their offenses were so similar then it shouldn't matter if they have Cutler there or someone McDaniels wants. He can still get his guy now and vastly improve their defense potentially. And apparently to the Broncos, that was more important than just having Jay Cutler.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:38 PM) Except for the fact that McDaniels was operating under Belicheck and not as the head coach. I dont think Cassel is very good either, but I think that Moss is pretty good. As for "the system", I guess Im not tremendously impressed by an offense that only 1 time since 2005 was in the top 5 for points scored per game. That "defensive system" also was pretty good. I just dont think McDaniels is as smart as you do. I don't know why you guys think I am coming off as some huge Josh McDaniels supporter. The only thing I have even said about it is that he wants his guy for his system and Cutler wasn't that guy. Maybe it will haunt Denver for doing this trade, or maybe they get their guy and take all those high picks and build something special. Who the f*** knows, its a crap shoot. He didn't want Cutler though, that's for sure.

QUOTE (rockren @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:38 PM) Does Randy Moss come with that system in, too? No, but Moss wasn't even that great this past year anyways.

QUOTE (rockren @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:34 PM) Rodgers, I agree, was a surprise. However that's just how the draft fell that year. If Rodgers would've went #1 to SF, Smith would have fallen like Rodgers did. Quinn, on the other hand, was said to be a "2nd Round Pick" by plenty of NFL Execs leading up to the draft. I haven't heard anywhere regarding Sanchez as a 2nd Rounder. No, Miami would have taken Alex Smith if he didn't go number one. I know that for a fact, aside from the fact that I am a Dolphins fan, that was the word from Miamis camp during that draft. If Quinn was said to be a second round pick, he would have lasted till the second round. I never saw anything about that anways, but I did see plenty of talk about him being a late first rather than a top pick. Regardless, Miami should have taken him at #9 anyways but thats a non issue now. Ive also not heard anything about Sanchez being a second rounder, I never said that or hinted that either. I have however seen plenty that has him falling into the middle of the draft. With the amount of good tackles in this draft, there is going to be a run on them and some names will surely drop, I expect Sanchez to be one of those.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:29 PM) Well I think that Cutler is far more valuable than Ocho Cinco. How much do you think teams would pay for Larry Fitzgerald? You have to take into consideration that Ocho is 30 years old and had injury questions. The fact that he was worth 2 first rounders should show just how great of a deal this was for the Bears. For an extra third rounder they go from Chad Johnson to a young franchise QB who is under contract for 3 years? You have a lot of faith in Josh McDaniels and the "system". Me not so much. We will see what happens, but Belicheck didnt do so well in his first stint. Cutler is far more valuable than Ocho Cinco, and the only reason that Washington offered two firsts for him is because Daniel Snyder clearly doesn't care about draft picks. You have an owner who doesn't mind dealing draft picks and is crazy about getting the big name players and that's his best offer. The Redskins made a desperate offer to get something that they really needed and were turned down for some insane reason, im sure they could have offered more but you have to draw the line somewhere. Roy Williams was traded for a first, third, and sixth in comparison. I don't even give a s*** about Denver. However, I think Matt Cassel isn't any good and was just a product of McDaniels system so until someone goes into that system and is a complete failure there really is no reason to think its not going to work.

QUOTE (rockren @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:27 PM) Yeah....right. Yes, that is right. McDaniels already tried to deal him once and it didn't work, clearly, he has no issues with his team not having Jay Cutler at QB. Bowlen MIGHT be, however, he could have easily said "Look, he is our franchise QB and we aren't trading him" which he DID say, and then look at where we are now. If they really wanted Cutler to be their QB, he would be.

QUOTE (rockren @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:25 PM) To the Bears? Cutler is... Oh really? The Bears traded two firsts and two seconds for Jay Cutler?

QUOTE (rockren @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:24 PM) Yeah I never said I liked Sanchez, either. I'd much rather see more than just 16 starts, which is all he's had. However QBs are always way overvalued in drafts and Sanchez has wowed people in workouts lately. I'll call the 49ers to grab him at 10 if he's there. Brady Quinn? Aaron Rodgers? You would be hard pressed to see ANYONES mock having either of them fall into the 20's in their draft years.

QUOTE (rockren @ Apr 2, 2009 -> 09:21 PM) So as I said...Denver got the better of nothing. It isn't even because I'm a Bears fan or anything...trading Cutler was a very horrible thing for Denver. Ide actually say keeping Cutler and dealing with the issues that would surely come from it would have been more horrible for Denver. The guy wouldn't even talk to anyone, so yes they lose a young talented QB. I don't think Josh McDaniels or Pat Bowlen are sweating losing Cutler, clearly McDaniels isn't since he already tried to get rid of him once anyways.