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QUOTE(DrunkBomber @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 06:01 PM) Actual anabolic steroids could "hinder" and use the word hinder very lightly. How come nobody is talking about HGH and the stuff from balco. The clear he was taking from balco improved eye sight, hand eye coordination amongst other things. Also, HGH repairs injuries quicker strengthens tendons etc. Now, he has been caught taken these designer drugs from balco and not necessarily anabolic steroids and anyone that completely rules out him taking other things like HGH is in denial. These things make you better, period. Shadows, what is the basis for your expertise on the subject? Have you taken steroids? You sound like youre trying to defend it. I am defending steroids, they are awesome. Now im done with this thread for reasons I don't care to discuss.

QUOTE(thedoctor @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 04:18 PM) having seen just about every snap of his college career, i think ginn has a long way to go to become an nfl caliber receiver. i'm not saying he won't eventually be there, but he is really raw in terms of receiving skills at this point. Yep, I know this. He needs to work on his route running big time. However, this year guys like Chris Chambers, Marty Booker, and Derek Hagan will be in front of him. All they will expect from Ginn on offense this season will be to run the occasional reverse and stretch the field while he gets the work he needs to become a solid WR in the league.

QUOTE(vandy125 @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 04:24 PM) I really don't think that he is talking about necessarily getting bigger and bulkier (hence slowing down one's swing). What he is talking about is the rebuilding of muscle tissue at a faster pace. This faster pace does not mean that you will get too bulky. It means that you can reach your goal level of muscle mass in a much faster period of time. It also means that it is much easier to maintain that muscle mass as you are going through your daily routine. You will not get tired out as quickly as normal because you will have a much quicker recovery time (the muscle tissue gets built back up quicker). For instance say someone wants to add 10 pounds of muscle to reach a goal that will not prohibit them from swinging. Player A without steroids, but working hard take 1 year to do it. Player B with steriods, and working hard takes 3 months. Also, Player A after playing in 60 straight games is more worn down than Player B because his muscle tissue is not being rebuilt as quickly. TIFWIW. That is what I have read up on steriods as doing, and it is why pitchers get caught with it a lot. They need their muscles rebuilt quicker so that they can go out and throw again without much loss of performance. Yes, I know this. And its not what Kap was saying. He was trying to prove that it wouldn't hinder your performance, which like I said it would be more likely to do that in baseball when it requires quickness/limberness to get around extend the arms etc. For the record Kap, I understand what you are saying about muscle repair, but thats not even what I was discussing here.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 04:18 PM) Come on... let's all bow down to all-knowing SHADOWS! You're all over the place. First, it makes you better, then it doesn't. Then it helps you bulk up, then it doesn't. Then, it has this effect, then it doesn't. I'm not saying that you don't know what you're talking about in some aspects, but when you say that is simply false FOR MOST ATHLETES). I also think that you're just trying to show you know more then everyone else on this subject, which is fine, I guess... ^^ Please point all this out for me. Im not talking about most athletes im talking about baseball here, try to take a better look at what you're reading before you make misinformed posts about it.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 02:05 PM) He'll be able to lineup in the WR spot, sure. Will he be anything more than a 3rd wideout? I know I wouldn't want him starting for my team, and again -- with the 9th overall pick, I want a starter. Yes, and before a down is even played you already assuming he will never be a starter. Well see what happens.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 03:24 PM) They "hinder a performer"? I thought you said the only side effect of steroids is "excellence"? Haha, great point there... I remember that when I said that it was purely meant for what it can do to you in baseball and not the way you appear to everyone else. Nice try though. Much like Kap, youre just another clueless person who is talking about something other than what I was.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) With this comment, you tell me you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You're assuming a lot, I think. Steroids are used (as far as the growth hormone class - there are many different classes of steroids) to allow muscle to be ripped apart and rebuild more quickly then otherwise would be tolerated by the body. In other words, work out tons, add muscle mass quicker because your body will repair itself a little more quicker. Rinse, and repeat. You still have to work your ass off, but it does some nasty things to your body. It certainly won't "hinder your performance." For baseball, being big and bulky would slow down your swing and with the lack of tendon and ligament support would also cause further chances at injury etc. I don't know what else to tell you if you are trying to tell me that being bulky (losing range of motion in the process) has no effect in any of this. I know more about steroids and steroid use than most likely all of you, im not assuming anything. Everything you just said above really had nothing to do with baseball, in which I was talking about. You just said basically what steroids do.

QUOTE(Steff @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 02:01 PM) I would guess that a lot of it has to do with the potential to improve so drastically. Bingo. Which is completely false.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 01:48 PM) Smart GMs can find "speed" in later rounds. With the 9th overall pick? You're looking for an impact player, not a kick returner with above average but not spectacular receiving skills. Smart GMs, a known three of them, were set to take Ginn 9,10, and 12-13 whichever St. Louis had. Ginn has game changing speed, he is a raw receiver who could become a pretty damn good player.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 01:52 PM) "They just took Devin Hester 9th overall" -Me to my friends after hearing the pick of Ginn. Except Ted Ginn is not JUST a returner and will be able to play the WR position unlike Hester who wont.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 01:37 PM) That's terrible logic. Neifi Perez wasn't even taking steroids. But let's say he was -- noone's saying that Bonds was a crappy player before taking steroids. Perez is a crappy player. 120% (or whatever) of crap is still crap. Not all roiders use the same regimen, nor do they all react in exactly the same way or at the same rate, nor did they all start using at exactly the same time. Bonds isn't the only player who did anything while on them. Raffy had a nice career, McGwire and Sosa had a year you might have heard something about, and Giambi did well enough to get one of those Yankee throw-money-at-it contracts. And you didn't answer Tex's question -- If they do no good or (as you say) hurt performance, why are steroids so widely used in baseball? Do you take steroids? Do you know the regimen that people who are currently on steroids take? I doubt it. And I didn't say steroids do no good, I just said that they would be more likely to hinder a performer. You have to have the skills to hit the ball regardless. Steroids will not do that, all you people who have never taken steroids or only know the bad stuff you hear from TV have no clue what you are talking about. The reason they are so widely used is because people think they can take steroids and become a badass, which is not the case.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 01:13 PM) And guess what -- the pick still didn't make sense for Miami. We'll see this season, I guess... Actually it DID make sense.. Miami needs two things, a QB of the future and speed.. they had just about zero team speed going into this season.. So they take Ted Ginn who is prolly the fastest player in this draft. He is not asked to start and he will be able to be eased into playing, and his speed will not only help on offense but on returns as well.. The only way it makes sense is what Miami did with the second pick, taking John Beck. They got their QB of the future while also being able to add some serious speed to a very slow offense. The only way this doesn't make sense is if Quinn becomes a good quarterback, Beck doesn't, and Ginn never amounts to anything. However, like I said already Beck and Ginn are signed while Quinn plummets to the 20's and yet thinks he should get Top 10 money. Everything out of Miamis camp is about how much speed Ginn has and how he gets an opening and hes gone. His speed is incredible, and its one thing Miami hasn't had on offense, pretty much since the days of Clayton and Duper. Beck has also been showing good things in camp and with Camerons success with QBs I think he should be a solid player. And before wite comes on here and does his same old "Dolphins never do anything wrong routine" I wanted Quinn at 9 and was disgusted when they passed on him for Ginn. However, its not looking that bad now.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 01:12 PM) His body is and has been a mess. I think that has a little more to do with his age and duration of his MLB career, yes, he has had some.. but he is still out there playing pretty damn healthy this season

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 01:03 PM) Hah, somebody actually defending drafting Tedd Ginn 9th overall? That makes my morning... Houston was going to take him at 10, St. Louis also had him at their pick shortly after that..

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 01:00 PM) Nobody was ever on quite the regiment that Bonds was on. Besides that, nobody was as naturally good as he was and then bulked. Combine his natural skill with huge, not-God-given muscles, and you've got a beast. All the steroids in the world won't turn Neifi Perez into Harmon Killebrew -- but if Bonds takes enough, he can be Babe Ruth. PS: Bonds has crumbled. His body's taken a ton of damage over the last few years. I mean, Giambi's crumbling for a variety of reasons. He's a party boy, and he's a little careless, and he's not as dedicated as Bonds. Per Book of Shadows. I would hardly say that Bonds has crumbled

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 03:31 AM) and there is the "Dolphins never make a wrong move" TRU I love Whether they made the wrong move or not passing on Quinn has yet to be seen.. All I am saying is Ginn and Beck are both signed and showing good things in camp while Quinn is holding out for big money..

QUOTE(Texsox @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 09:05 AM) If they don't help much, then why the hell are players taking them? GMAB. If all it made was a 15% difference he would still be 100 away and probably not setting the record. Im willing to bet you know absolutely nothing about steroids except for "they're bad".. Steroids will not help you hit the ball, that is still a skill that you have to be able to do on your own, if anything, the bulk that you put on from steroids would hinder that ability. Steroids make your muscles grow, your tendons and ligaments do not. If they help so much, why is Bonds pretty much the only player who has done anything while "on them". Why isn't Neifi Perez badass? Why did Jason Giambi crumble, yet Bonds has shown no sign of slowing down? What about those 100 or so unnamed players who failed tests in 2003 when they first tested?

William Bodie, 32 years old and 228 wins.. Has a great chance to get #300 before its all said and done

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Aug 6, 2007 -> 01:13 AM) or draft Ted Ginn over Brady Quinn Ted Ginn who is signed and making a big impression in training camp or brady quinn who is holding out for top 10 money? P.S. Beck is also getting rave reviews from camp as well, also signed btw..

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 01:12 AM) But it was against the law. I am pretty sure that every single poster in this thread has done something that was against the law in one way or another.. whether that be underage drinking, smoking weed, or simply while driving.

QUOTE(Linnwood @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:59 AM) Another player admitted on a respected national sports news show that he did the "BALCO program" with Barry Bonds and former BALCO chemist Patrick Arnold says that he heard Victor Conte frequently boast about Bonds and Sheffield being on "the program," yet you still have doubts? What do you need? Video tape of Bonds injecting himself while holding a sign that says "I, BARRY BONDS, AM DOING STEROIDS" ? I wonder, do you think OJ is innocent too? I guess the term proven guilty flies right over your head

QUOTE(Linnwood @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:33 AM) To anyone that is rational there is zero question. Whatever you say chief

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:29 AM) Rose would be the first to tell you he doesn't belong on that top ten list. maybe hes just a modest guy

QUOTE(Linnwood @ Aug 5, 2007 -> 12:25 AM) Gary Sheffield admitted on HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel that both he and Bonds did "the clear" and "the cream." Sheffield, the moron that he is, rationalizes that they didn't "do" steroids since they administered them orally, instead of "shooting them in the butt." There is ZERO question that Bonds took steroids. to you there is zero

QUOTE(Brian @ Aug 4, 2007 -> 09:37 PM) I don't know. I guess I grew up. It sucks sometimes. Would tend to make sense, I was unaware of your current age at the time of my comments