mmmmmbeeer

What a crazy game when you have to praise a guy for "settling" for $14 MILLION dollars for 7 months of work.

QUOTE(chisox72 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 08:10 AM) What is also disheartening is the White Sox handling of this entire situation. It was all a charade, so that once again JR, KW, and co. can stand in the background, throw their hands up, and say "We tried." They never had any intention of resigning him. Obviously the thought of resigning him did occur or they wouldn't have ever opened negotiations....I mean, unless you believe their intentions all along were to completely destroy his trade value and piss off a bunch of fans just so they could say "we tried". As I posted earlier, if you follow the sequence of events, there were obvious changes in direction on the part of KW over the course of the past year, but moreso over the past 2 weeks.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 07:46 AM) Ok, where would you rate Buehrle as a pitcher since his first full year (2001)? What is your definition of elite? He might not meet the criteria for an "Ace" because he doesn't strike out a lot of batters. However, since 2001, he is 6th in wins, 15th in ERA, 5th in Complete Games, 2nd in Innings Pitched, and 6th in Shutouts with 1 no-hitter. When people rate pitchers over an era, Buerhle has arguably been one of the best pitchers in baseball since 2001. Your argument about 20 wins if funny. Is 20 some magical barrier? Him not being a 20 game winner makes the fact that he is 6th in wins since 2001 even stronger. That means he is very consistent. Loaiza won 20+ games for the Sox, I guess he is better than Buehrle. If you are not going to spend $14 million on quality starting pitching because you are rebuilding, then where are you spending it? The fastest way back to the top, even when rebuilding is by locking up your quality starters, and Buehrle would be one. You also say he is far from irreplaceable. So you are saying there are players available for $14 million that can take over his production? Please name those players that are available, because I could not find one that was even close in price or production. This argument has been rehashed numerous times no this site so I really don't want to get into it. Again, Mark is a good pitcher and $14M, for a team planning on competing, is a good deal. The Sox aren't competing for at least another 3-4 years (based on the young, cheap rosters in DET and CLE). So why in the hell would we want to drop $14M a year on a pitcher that might help us lose less? I think our biggest difference comes down to you believing this team can re-tool and continue to compete and my belief that this team is done and needs to completely rebuild. In my scenario Mark is nothing but a waste of money, in your scenario he's an important piece in continuity of strong pitching. KW seems to be waffling between these two scenarios as well.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 07:05 AM) JR is just as responsible for the they way this has been handled as KW. KW has pretty good job security no matter how bad the Sox play this season, or probably the next several. Obviously JR was involved at some point being a 4 year deal was on the table. If JR wanted MB on this team, he'd be on this team (like Kong). If JR didn't want MB on this team, MB wouldn't have been offered a 4 year deal. Logic leads me to believe that this was completely in Kenny's hands to do what he felt was best for the franchise with JR supporting whatever decision was made.

MB is very overrated on this site, always has been. He's referred to as "elite" or as an "ace" way too often. It's like people think that we're dealing with Peavy or Santana here. This franchise will survive without MB. You think $14M in today's market is a steal, but would you freak out if they gave Garland $14M? They're the same pitcher. If our payroll drops dramatically next season, which it will, we're not going to compete. Why, if we're not going to compete, would you want $14M of the payroll to go towards one player who pitches once every 5 days. He's never even won 20 games in his career, it's not like every 5th day you're practically guaranteed a victory. He's a good pitcher, no doubt, but far from irreplaceable. No player should be making $14M/yr on a team in its first year of a rebuilding process. Although I certainly won't shed a tear when he's gone and will be happy when we realize the payroll flexibility his release offers next season, I really don't like the way the Sox handled this. 2 weeks ago KW should have said MB is on the table and any team can have the 72hr negotiation window. It's almost as if KW got caught inbetween on this, like he changed his mind in the middle of negotiations. This is not something a GM should do. He should have a plan and stick with it. Instead of going full bore ahead with the decision to trade MB and get maximum value in return, he instead considered resigning him and went ahead with negotiations. The negotiations start, are made public, potential trade partners get discouraged, the public gets their hopes up. Then KW changes his mind again and decides MB isn't in his plans. So now he's got a pissed off fan base. MB's agent, as a negotiation play, has now declared that MB will hit the FA market, killing his trade value. Just horribly played by KW, I mean absolutely butchered job of managing the situation and his team. You couldn't have scripted a worse scenario. Again, it just really proves that a GM MUST have a plan in place and execute on that plan. He's got a chance to redeem himself and get some value back, but it will now be a VERY difficult task to do so. Edited to add: For those of you wanting KW gone after this, don't think JR isn't noticing how badly KW handled this. JR is a good business man who understands the importance of strong management. This wishy-washy, non-committal mode of "management" that KW just displayed couldn't have gone unnoticed. This is the type of situation that can cost someone their job. I don't think JR gives a s*** about losing MB, that's not why KW would be canned as many of you imply. He does give a s*** about incompetence.

Olly Perez was just placed on the DL for back troubles. If it turns long term Mets are that much more desparate.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 04:54 PM) It's not a pardon. The dude is still basically ruined. With the GOP/big business/energy buddies this guy has you believe he's ruined!?!? That's gold. The deal is now complete. Libby helps Bush and Cheney stay out of the line of fire, Bush returns the favor. Bush/Cheney continue business as normal and Libby will get some cush job as a consultant with an energy firm making hundreds of thousands dollars a year while avoiding the prison ass-rapes.

QUOTE(Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 2, 2007 -> 03:09 PM) Bah, I disagree completely. You mistake muslim countries with muslim extremist groups. What does Al-Qaeda or Hezbollah or any other terrorist group care if we need their regions oil? They don't. They could careless. Even if tomorrow the government flips a switch and we never need another drop of oil again it's not like terrorists will stop and say 'well gosh, I guess we no longer have what they want, I guess we better stop attacking them.' I think he was implying that if we diverted war funds to alternative energy exploration, became successful at utilizing those alternative energies, we would then have no reason to use their homelands as military staging grounds. If we have no interest in the oil, there's nothing else there but desert. If they want to blow one another up, have at it. We'll be out of the mess. It really comes down to having a belief that our government's involvement in that region, due to oil concerns, played a large role in the viciousness with which the radicals look at us. If we no longer have any involvement then the strains in the relationship must soften.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 06:24 PM) Read the boards, a ton of people want to trade him, and it completely bewilders me. And as much as I love Bobby, he's not bringing 3 quality prospects back. No way. A top notch closer who makes $450k/year.....and you don't think that he's fetch 3 quality prospects?!?!? I brought this up in trade winds weeks ago; he's the most valuable asset on this team who, if we enter a complete rebuilding mode, is worthless to us. What do you think Boston would command for Papelbon, another top notch closer making league minimum? If the Sox didn't have a closer and were in the playoff hunt, would you be willing to give up Gio, Sweeney, and Floyd for Papelbon, who hasn't even hit his arbitration years yet? Of course you would. Jenks is in the same tier of elite closers as Papelbon but, even more important, is playoff/pressure tested. I'd go as far to say that if we deal off 2-3 SP, Dye, Thome, and Gooch while Jenks is still on this team I'll actually be very upset and cite it as a complete failure on KW's part. Edit: I wouldn't deal him if we got the equivalent of Gio, Sweeney, and Floyd...it was just an example using our weak system and trying to pick the top 3 'spects.

From Mark's perspective I completely understand why he wants the NTC. You give a hometown discount to stay in Chicago, they supposedly negotiated with family because the family wants the uncertainty of moving removed from the equation. Then the team says that they want the right to trade you, I'd run too. From KW's vantage point, this is a good move. Giving Mark a full NTC is dealing with your heart instead of your mind. As a GM of a pro franchise, his heart should be left out of any and all negotiations. I have no doubt in my mind that he just dramatically increased Mark's value. He can now allow any team a negotiation window being the Sox now "officially" have no interest in signing him at the end of the year. From a purely intellectual business perspective, KW couldn't have played this any better. Now there is no doubt in my mind that a large scale fire sale is about to begin. The only way KW can screw this up is if we've still got Contreras and Jim Thome on this team by August 1st. They both need to be gone as they have no role to play on a team in a rebuilding mode. And I'm with others who have thrown Jenks name out there, he needs to be dealt too.

QUOTE(BobDylan @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 11:09 PM) Kenny hasn't considered any of this. He has no idea how much his players are making, how many years they're signed for and it has yet to occur to him that he has a lot of money already locked up in a certain group of players. He has no idea that he has a lot of holes to fill and very little room to work with. He doesn't know that Buehrle is a FA next year and he doesn't know yet that Crede is on the DL. He doesn't know that the bullpen is a complete mess and he doesn't know Dye isn't putting up numbers close to last year. He still thinks Thome will slug them to a World Series because he's the left handed power hitter the team has needed for so many years. He doesn't know that Jose Contreras is old. He doesn't know why french fries are called "french" fries. He doesn't know who Razor Shines or Ozzie Guillen are. He doesn't even know who he is. Why do I keep seeing these kind of threads? Kenny Williams isn't a moron. He understands what's going on--it's just a matter of whether he can work through all these restrictions in a timely matter. I don't think that he was insinuating that KW doesn't understand his position, I think he's mentioning that there are two courses of action KW can take. I'm in complete agreement, it's time for a complete overhaul of this team. I would trade jenks, garland, vazquez, anyone who we can something for. KW tried to rebuild while competing this season (his words) and we see how well that's worked.

posturing.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jun 14, 2007 -> 06:11 AM) The sox aren't going to be in complete rebuilding mode in '08. With some salaries coming off the books, the sox can add a few key pieces. Not to mention if the sox get near ready prospects in deals this year. Jenks isn't going anywhere. So you think that with a guaranteed reduction in ST sales we're going to have the money to acquire via FA: LF CF RF 2B SP x 1 an entire bullpen (minus boone and bobby) and that's assuming that Crede will be able to play and that you don't want to upgrade Uribe. Face it, this team isn't going to contend next season unless KW is able to work some MAJOR magic and JR increases the payroll despite lower revenue streams. To say we aren't in complete rebuilding mode is to fool yourself, imo.

If I'm KW and looking at a hardcore rebuilding effort over the next 3 seasons, the man I deal right now is Bobby Jenks. In this market he has more value than any other player on this team. He's young, proven, cheap talent. I think KW could get a king's ransom in return. He isn't going to be used enough on a losing/rebuilding team to justify keeping. What's the point of having a top notch closer if you're losing 90-100 games a year? Am I alone?

QUOTE(chisoxfan79 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 01:28 PM) No clue I just flipped over during the break First their bullpen pulled a MacDougal....sCrUBS down 1 in the 8th...Pagan leadoff double then immediately gets picked off trying to steal 3rd, lol.... Chicago baseball...gotta love it.

When I was up home in Oswego last weekend I had an epiphany of sorts. I had just finished watching the Sunday TB game and was really pissed off. I was telling my dad, a Sox fan all his life, about the mistakes in the game. I was pretty pissed off and he just well, wasn't. He told me how he used to watch every game and his mood would depend on how the Sox did. He used to be the same way my brother and I are about this team. Then he tells me that '05 changed everything. He said that they've now won a championship and he was alive for it. After all those years of waiting and being so committed to this franchise, it paid off on Oct 26, 2005. Since that time if the Sox lose, he just goes about his business. This team is currently 1 game under .500 in the toughest division in baseball. Are they playing up to their abilities? No. Could KW have made some moves for OF this winter? Sure. Is Oz one of the most mindbogglingly poor in-game managers we've ever seen? Yes. But ya know what, they're only 1 game under. They've given us a reason to watch baseball into August every year since 2000. If we had some Mariners fans, or Baltimore or Texas fans on here, they'd be laughing hysterically at these overreactions. IMO, an owner isn't justified in firing his GM when his team is 1 game under .500 with all the injuries we've had. A GM isn't justified in firing his manager when his team is 1 game under .500. Even George freakin' Steinbrenner didn't fire anyone when his $200M Yankees were what, 10 games under!?!? Listen to yourselves. Mistakes have been made but it's not THAT bad.

I posted here a while back a snippet that said that the Giants want Crede. Perhaps they're looking at a complementing component to a deal or scouting Crede more throroughly.

You gotta be kiddin' me? I had 6 tix for Satuday's game, was in from out of town, and now I'm s*** outta luck unless I make it back up there in the middle of a school week? That's bs.

QUOTE(Controlled Chaos @ May 29, 2007 -> 09:11 AM) Me either...and wouldn't it be stupid as a runner to try and step on the first baseman's heel. I would think you would be the one at risk for injury. You would definitely be the one to fall down and wipe out. The replay they showed left me wondering why in the hell Moreau's foot was on TOP of the bag? I never really played 1B but my impression has always been that you butt the outside of your foot up against the side of the bag, not lay the inside of your foot parallel to the top of the bag?!?! Positioning your foot like Morneau's is just asking to get stepped on and presents a huge injury risk to both himself and the runner.

I can think of 3 games off the top of my head when the opponent had runners on 2nd and 3rd w/ 0 or 1 outs and he absolutely REFUSES to walk the bases loaded, even if there is a better matchup waiting in the on-deck circle. Yesterday in MIN is one of the 3 games when he decided to have Count pitch to Punto? who has hit like .500 against the Count in his career. Meanwhile, Cuddyer is on deck who hits Count at like a .200 clip. Stupid moves like that remind me of a rebellious teenager...they know what they're about to do is wrong but, just to show how bad ass they are, they do it anyway.

Ozzie has made some REAL boneheaded moves during games, the biggest mistake this season being the game where he left Pods out in LF in a 1run game in the 9th against the A's. THAT instance directly resulted in a loss. I just don't get what he did so wrong yesterday to be catching all this s***? Leaving Mac in the game? I haven't been able to watch many games the last couple of weeks but I always come to Soxtalk for a recap and, during the past 2 weeks, I kept reading how Mac has got it back, looking good again. So was all that just pie-in-the-sky talk? Has he really been awful and Ozzie should've known to go to Aardsma in the 7th? Not inserting AJ at catcher in the 7th? Why oh why would you put your backup in before the 9th inning? Toby Hall, unlike Molina, can hit ML pitching. You don't put your team in a position where an injury to AJ leaves you without a catcher...especially considering the sCrUBS would certainly take the opportunity to throw a ball or two at his head while he's batting, especially when Sweet Lou knows that Oz has no backup if AJ gets ejected or hurt. Hell, there were even people getting on Ozzie for starting Pablo at 3b yesterday instead of Crede without even knowing Crede was hurt. This team should not have the record it has. When your offense is giving the output ours is, it takes two things to win the # of games we have....solid pitching and sound strategy. Ozzie is directly responsible for one of those components. Give the guy a break. I'm no apologist and, quite honestly, I wouldn't be too upset if Ozzie were fired. But at least save the blame game for situations where he's actually the one at fault. We're 2 games over .500 with no offense which, in all actuality, is a testament to the potential this team really has if the O starts clicking. Reading this board you'd think we're about 11 games out already after playing a cake schedule the first month and a half of the season.

our 3-4 hitters are pretty badass.

Sooo...exactly what study are these guys using to deem second hand smoke so destructive? Or is it just the smell? I'm just not seeing the basis of this law. I suppose if you spent 4 hours a day in a 400sqft bar which is always packed with smokers, well, you may face a true quality of life violation...but the average person hitting the bar once or twice a week for a few hours, often in very large buildings with ventilation, doesn't exactly sound like a grave, even minuscule, danger. It's hilarious to me, you see a town a few years back claim that they were going smoke-free. Since that time, it's been a freakin' contest to see what town/city/state can come up with the newest "safety law" (blatantly abusing the constitution) to make the news and get their name on the map. And the sad part is that some of you selfish people are applauding this blatantly political move.

Many characters regressing tonight back to the days of old. Chris putting the family tree back upright at the end seemed to solidify that point. We're in for a few good weeks I think. Tonight's show really picked up the pace, literally, as we moved from scene to scene and story to story very quickly.

Was listening to Baseball Tonight pre-game on the ESPN radio this evening. Heard them mention that the Giants are probably going to be looking to deal Noah Lowry for an OF or a 3b. They guy gives up a ton of hits but has had decent 3.xx era's in the NL. Y'all think KW might try to get in on some Lowry by moving Crede, especially if we end up having a firesale?