Chombi

Is it time for the firesale? A lot of our plans have backfired and now this one costs us a lot. We can play the "you still need to play the games" card but lets get real here. They were a playoff caliber team who added a HOF hitter and a decent pitcher for guys who had minimal contribution last season. That to me is a huuuuuuuge improvement. Cleveland is still loaded and don't think for a second that they won't try and respond to this move. Bay perhaps? Minnesota is dealing guys but I don't think they will fall off as much as expected because they talent they are getting in return is mlb ready and damn good. Royals are coming on fast and I wouldn't be shocked with Gordon and Butler in a full seasons work helping out a lot more. They may be just as good if not better then us. Sox. Old. Prospects contributing are nothing special. Pitching is undecided and OF/lineup still have holes. Pathetic front office...Anything else I am missing? 80 win team on paper max. In our division 70 wins max.

It's all good man. I didn't mean it like that. I was saying it has basically sunk into people head now as ESPNHD and it just makes me laugh because I have a friend who says it in every conversation. Nothin on your part.

I love the ESPNHD thing instead of ESPN for where it was reported from. Just made me chuckle a little. Remind me of my buddy who always drops the HD part into conversations as if it's a whole different network or company. I really can't stand this team so far. We are just pussies. Plain and simple. We don't pull the trigger on FA or trades when we should. All of us sit here and debate about not dealing our farm. What farm? The Tigers actually had a farm and were willing to deal it, so what does that say about an organization afraid to deal a s***ty one? It's not like we could've gotten much worse. Just frustrating.

Ok. You're looking at performance and numbers/facts. Totally fine with me and I can't really agree more. What I am trying to do is point out and defend all those "delusional" people who were insulted. I am more of a stathead myself but the numbers don't always reflect ability. No one doubts or should doubt whether Willis has the ability. He is still young and still has life on his pitches. No questioned he has struggled but it remains an ability thing to me. Dontrelle will probably be their 3rd starter? Less pressure, new environment, winning team, etc...all those things can wake a guy up like Dontrelle. It just happens to guys, Mike Lowell is a guy literally in the same situation and that kind of turned around. Even if Lowell's revival was only for this season, it still did it's job for the BoSox. If the Dtrain has a career year going into his contract season...I am pretty sure it will help the Tigers. 3 years ago he should've won the Cy Young. Should've or could've, really your opinion on it. 2 years ago he had a decent season. I didnt think it was great but let's not pretend it's as bad as you're leading his decling trends to be. Last season was just a giant leap and letdown. To me, guys like Jones have bad years and declining trends and we say they "pressed" too hard in the contract year. Willis does it and there is something wrong with him? Why? Because we want to convince ourselves that we have a shot in a division that we really have 0 chance in? That is the only part that scares me with him. We have seen him dominate before and I am not quite willing to write him totally off yet. You may be, but I am not.

Willis shouldn't be the focal point in the deal. They got Miggy and that is it. Willis is nothing to be slept on and the Marlins were selling low on him this offseason. Regardless of your take on Dontrelle he is still a young lefty with good stuff. His numbers don't indicate his ability as proven by success he has had in the past. The problem with this deal is here. We have seen the names involved for Miggy. Kendrick, Adenhart, Willits, Wood, Santana, etc. Those are some of the names the Angels had out there. A few of those guys I would put in the same league as Miller and one nearly on Maybins level (Wood). Other teams we saw had rumors of what they'd be offering as well. Most of the time we saw the same scenario. Two of the top 3 prospects, if not all three (Mariners) and then more on top of that. So to me, they could've gotten Maybin and maybe even Miller for Miggy. As a sox fan, the Tigers dealing Miller+Maybin for Miggy still scares me because of proven mlb track records. Those guys are prospects and Miggy isn't. Dontrelle could be looked at as a prospect in a sense because he is a hot/cold player. There is nothing delusional in understanding that the guy could easily walk out there next year and win a Cy Young. Not many guys can say they have the ability to do it. He can. So idc how poorly he has looked, the ability is there and that is what the downside is. For fans like us, it's just that we had invested interest in this deal. The plambeach reporter was used to put a message out there to sucker the Tigers in and it worked. Tigers bit. For us, we heard the news and got excited only to have it crushed by him going elsewhere...Not just elsewhere like LAA, but to a hated division rival who can afford him long term. That is what kills. Add on top of that that they got Dontrelle, who could very well put up Cy Young numbers again and it is very disheartening for the Sox and the fans. There is nothing "delusional" about anyone who sees that point of view, just as there isn't anything wrong with your opinion. Until he walks out there, it is going to remain an opinion and both sides have legit backing to theirs.

It's over. They used us as a bluff. Hopefully not but it doesn't look good and gets worse. MLB.com is reporting that the Tigers are set to acquire Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis from the Marlins for Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller and four more prospects.

Understood. However, they can't be stupid and act like little kids about it. Sure he may be exactly what they want and desire but they can acquire much more then that for Miggy, not to mention Willis on top of it.

I've seen that the Tigers need to deal Maybin + Miller just to land a Haren or Bedard. How in the world do they Miggy and Willis? That's ridiculous.

Hahaha I hear you. Hamilton was a favorite of mine. Once the Cubs drafted him rule V, I had already started to build that bridge but he got dealt so I was happy. If he gets dealt back, the ground work is already there.

Anyone see that Sullivan thinks that the Cubs are in talks for Nate McLouth? He even goes as far as saying a deal would only cost Neal Cotts. Why do the Pirates insist on dealing within the division? Why would they make that deal? I am a little lost, but maybe I value McLouth too much. Sullivan also points out a few other things. Prior's possibilities and also Josh Hamilton talk.

I saw somewhere that the Blue Jays offered or are offering a package of Burnett, McGowan, and Adam Lind for Tejada and Bedard. I've seen other variations as well, some involving Rios.

I wanted Mizzou National Title tickets but that kind of backfired. I prolly would'dve gone to whatever BCS game but that is out the window. So I've turned my attention towards clothes and a vacation. Bahama's sounds nice.

Yea. The guys I wanted to eyeball this FA were Ichiro, Arod and Andruw Jones. I thought they'd fit in well for us. Ichiro signed. Arod we had no shot at. Jones I wasn't expecting to fall off a cliff like he did offensively. That said, when those things occured, it was almost not worth it. As much as I would've settled for a Hunter signing, I would've been upset as well because we would be overpaying for an aging OF who won't repeat 07' success. Sometimes it makes sense to be players on big names. Othertimes names like Hunter are the big name and not worth it. We can't just sign people to sign people. I do agree the Sox need to land at least one big name soon but maybe it will all pan out when a true star, who is young and proven, that we realistically can afford (not Arod) hits FA again. Vladdy was the last one I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe I am missing someone. Until that comes along again, I'd say leave it...perhaps next season with some of the arms out there???

I like a couple things. Let's not pretend our "young core" are locks or superb talent. It's not like we are talking Buchholz, Rasmus and Longoria or something. It's mediocre with a couple nice upsides. You can say Fields and Quentin have real nice upsides but otherwise not a lot elsewhere that is on this roster. Pitching we have a few guys on the way but nothing at this very moment. Danks didn't impress me enough to grant him worthy of something to "must keep." I agree it might be dangerous to deal for Miggy but what we fail to take into account is that a deal for Miggy spells the end for someone like Kong. Levine had mentioned something about it and I'd agree. An acquisition of Miggy means someone has to go. Uribe and Crede may be enough to compensate for miggy's salary this season but by next season Kong has to be moved, Thome may not be back w/o a paycut and even someone like Javy. Between what would be Miggy needing big money and guys like Jenks following, You can almost certainly count on those guys being moved. Basically, a Cabrera move means something else will happen too. It also doesn't and won't strap us financially because of all our of expiring contracts and what not.

I can't see Harden being moved for little. His upside is so ridiculous that Beane is safer keeping him. I saw that Haren is commanding Miller + Maybin from the Tigers. If that's true, I can't imagine Beane taking less then one top flight prospect for Harden and then a lesser one with it.

Exactly. At worst, Crede will outperform a type of player like Burke just because he will actually play everyday. JC is an everyday 3rd baseman and Burke is a utility player with no real strengths or upside. Crede, if healthy, should put up good numbers. His defense will be greatly appreciated by whatever NL team lands him. Seems like outside of Chicago teams and fans don't think as highly of him as we do. Houston might though after seeing him in action in the WS. If they can get Crede for Burke then they will have a steal. Point blank. Just a bad move for us w/o something else coming too.

Agreed. I think I see what the intent was but Carter for Quentin is not anything like landing a King Felix for DLS.

Saw that as well. Speculation on Rotoworld was Miller + Maybin. I can't see that but with the way the Tigers are dealing prospects, why not?

I'd love it but I still say we just don't have the chips. Quentin I figure could be something that puts us into the deal but maybe not. I can't see how a Quentin, Fields, Danks and something...Gio? wouldnt be enough...Just would blow my mind. I don't even think I'd be willing to deal all four anymore. I've stated this in a few threads and it's more wishful thinking but what isn't in this section? If Quentin was something that could put us over the top for Miggy. Pittsburg is supposedly discussing deals for Bay for relief pitchers. If it's true. We have quite a few that may spark some interest from them if we kick them something else. Unlikely, but I can't imagine dealing for Miggy and not following it up with something else. Be it still dealing Crede or whatever it is. Kong to clear salary room?

I guess the Quentin deal means Bay is out of the picture. I saw though that the Rangers and Pirates are talking deal involving a couple relief pitchers to the Pirates. If there is any team with extra relief pitching to gamble on it's us. I'd be more then happy to dump so of the guys who didn't quite pan out last season for Bay. If not, o well. I wouldn't mind trying to pull it off regardless. We don't really want them and if Bay can be had, I'd much rather have a stud OF as our problem instead of multiple mediocre relief pitchers. At worst, we deal Bay for something or put Quentin into a bigger deal. Maybe deal JD. I dont know. Saw he was discussed for relief pitchers and I don't think of Texas as "lights out" in the bullpen department. Especially minus Gagne.

Didn't even think about that year waiting period. I love the kid, but I tend to lose my train of thought in acquiring him. I always picture landing him in a deal and then moving Paulie for stuff so he can play first. Then I have to stop and remember he is a 3rd baseman. Idk why I do that. I will try and get off his bandwagon. My sophomore summer roommate @ school was an intern from UF and he always raved about him so I think thats why I drink the juice so much. I will stop though. Or at least try.

Few problems with that statement. As much as I wish it were that easy, it's not. A) We aren't the Yankees/BoSox/Cubs etc. They will all outbid and overpay for his services and we won't. (B) A winning team will be something I'd assume he wants and in 2 years, this team will be older and probably rebuilding further. Unless a lot of revamping takes place, but let's stick to what we have b/c its more likely. C) "B" also brings us to the fact that if this team repeats it's performance of last year next season, or don't improve a lot by 2010, our biggest asset for Miggy (Ozzie) could be out the door...regardless of his contract. Any more outbursts followed by pathetic seasons will be enough to see him sent packing. D) He won't be a free agent that year. Whoever deals for him will not give up the stuff required w/o getting him to sign longterm. I just can't see any team dumping their future for him without some insurance that he will be apart of the team for a while. All those things stated, it's not safe for us to wait and play for him in FA. Although we should have some money free, it's more JR's business moto and ego. You get him now and rebuild that farm. I have faith in the new group we have in place to scout and what not. You deal whatever it takes to get him now, if you can't, so be it.

Co-sign. I typed something similar in the Nathan being dealt section since his name with Houston has come up. If we could take Crede and add in Anderson/Sweeney/Owens etc. Maybe Mac/Logan/Thorton since they could use some pen and work for Patton then it'd be great. Crazy wishful thinking but some of these teams with big holes may be open to surplus over 1 guy. I wanted him last season in the deal set up for JG but obviously we weren't getting him for one, and two, no deal took place. Is there a big trade where we exchange 3-4 guys on each end and land Patton/Burke? They need sp so idk. This may be too much just for a minor league prospect but Burke, Patton, prospect for Sweeney, Crede, MacD, and like Adam Russell or Egbert.

If they could get Troy Patton for Nathan then it's worth it. I'd imagine it may get them another prospect too, but maybe not since the Stros are pitching depleted everywhere. If I were the Twins, I'd give them Boof Bonser just to sweeten the deal. Sounds crazy but it seems they are trying to go that direction and Boof is definately their weak link in that rotation to me. I can't decide if the Astro's deal Patton w/o an extension or something for Nathan, but he is their biggest chip to offer. Towles may be something targeted too. With questions about Mauer remaining at catcher long-term, a guy like Towles may not be a bad route. He did suck it up though last year so maybe he would just be a throw in. I really wanted Patton in that deal last season for Garland. I don't like Hirsch. Never really have or will. Patton was who I wanted our focal point to be cuz Pence I assumed was out of the question. If they're desperate enough, I can see him being moved for multiple things or a big piece like this. If we could somehow swing Crede, Mac or Thorton, and OF prospect or 2...then I'd do it for Patton, Burke and something minor. If not, o well. Wishful thinking.

I saw the Sox had discussions with the Brewers about Crede. Dare I say Crede + Mac + X(prospect) for Mr. LaPorta. Haha. I really would love to get that kid if he can be had.