lostfan

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 06:20 PM) I love it... people complain how we have no prospects and then we go and trade our 3 best prospects, everyone then goes, well their just prospects. LMAO. Meh the farm system just went from really bad to virtually non-existent. There isn't much of a difference. The farm system was already going to have to be rebuilt anyway.

QUOTE(Jeremy @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 04:17 PM) Unfortunately, absolutely nothing indicates that will be the case. Buehrle was excellent in the minors whereas Broadway has been very mediocre. Broadway was unimpressive in AAA last year (although not outright bad, either) but to say his whole minor league career has been mediocre is a stretch. Both he and Buehrle were so-so at A and good at AA, Broadway didn't put up good stats when he got called up to AAA though (Buehrle came straight from AA, IIRC). However, I'm not trying to imply that I think Broadway will ever be the pitcher Buehrle is... Broadway doesn't have anywhere near the command Buehrle does so he won't be able to get away with not having overpowering stuff as easily.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 10:29 PM) Owens could well put up a .350 OBP next year, he put up a .340 obp in his 2nd callup, in sort of an average year cabrera winds up around .320. That's what I was getting at... I guess on a baseball forum where people cling to stats as gospel I shouldn't have stated an exact number like 40, which was intended to be totally random. But it's not at all inconceivable to think that Owens would get on base at a .350 clip with a full seasons' worth of ABs (assuming he'd get it) in his second year.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 10:13 PM) I like Ocab as much as the next guy, but where do you get the idea Cabrera is a .350 OBP player? He has never posted a .350 OBP, and owns a .321 career OBP. I got lazy, and I looked only at last year's stats. I forgot, I do recall saying a few weeks ago that Owens is better suited to lead off because he was probably going to have about 40 points higher OBP than Cabrera.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 06:27 PM) Some folks feel that OBP is king when it comes to leadoff hitting. Depends on your perspective. Swisher provides power, but this lineup is already pretty well powered up in the middle. Since everyone else is doing it, here would be my lineup... Cabrera, SS Swisher, CF Thome, DH Konerko, 1B Dye, RF Pierzynski, C Fields, 3B Quentin, LF Richar, 2B While I agree with that mentality, the OBP of Cabrera isn't exactly a liability even if he's a better #2 hitter. You still have all the OBP in the world with Swisher in the 2 hole, I mean to have a guy who could potentially get on at a .400 clip (and 30 HR potential to boot) batting behind a relatively fast .350 type leadoff hitter, followed up by the now-proverbial Thome-Konerko-Dye, I don't mind that at all.

Swisher would be the slowest leadoff hitter I've seen in recent memory. In a lineup without Owens, why on earth would you not lead Cabrera off and have Swisher bat second? It would make no sense whatsoever and it's not like anything is lost by having Swisher at the second spot in the order. This isn't like the 3rd and 4th spots in the order where there isn't much difference between which power hitter you have there.

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:17 AM) Not a personal attack or anything. Just illustrating my point that people will hyper-focus on the question marks surrounding our team (our rotation in this case) and the COMPLETELY GIVE A PASS to other teams with the same or similar ????s. Chisoxfn pointed out how Bonderman's stuff is great but admitted his performance hasn't measured up. If Bonderman were on the Sox all these years putting up the EXACT same performance, a majority of people here would have been calling for his head by his second season (and probably his first). "He's worthless, sell him for a bag of balls, he's a head case, I don't give a crap about STUFF if you can't get hitters out," etc, etc, etc. And that's just Bonderman. That's not even mentioning their 3-5 starters. I do not think Bonderman will ever be any more than he is. Meaning on Monday he's a #3, on Wednesday he's a #1, on next Tuesday he's David Aardsma. He's got a plenty big sample size now, and a pattern established, and if he hasn't developed this elusive "consistency" people say he needs by now after... what... 5 years, he's just not going to. He will always have nasty stuff, but if he ever puts it all together I'll be surprised.

Detroit did pretty much mortgage their future for Cabrera though, but their GM has been money in the draft so if I was a Tiger fan I wouldn't worry too much.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 10:43 AM) KW has "gutted" a farm system that hadn't produced like it should have. So that isn't that big a deal IMO. Instead, KW has brought in young major league talent at the expense of the unproductive farm system. Where KW has made mistakes is not holding the farm system and all the scouts accountable. Or if he was responsible for some of the mistakes made, not owning up to them. Honestly, if the scouting and player development problems are fixed without damaging the MLB team (meaning we do not see another team like the 2007 White Sox for a long while) I'll completely forgive KW and take back all my b****ing over the last couple of years. If all goes well, we really shouldn't notice the nearly complete and total absence of a farm system. However if we are still having players who have been playing professional baseball for 3 years or more in our organization getting called up to MLB and not knowing how to place a bunt, I'll be pissed.

BTW I voted yes for the trade, although I hate the fact that our rotation still has a gaping hole in it. But at least another gaping hole is solved, and for the long-term, and at a reasonable cost (e.g. not for the silly price Hunter got). I didn't expect this team to be completely fixed in one offseason, though.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 09:22 AM) Think about this for a second. KW has basically turned his player development and scouting staff upside down in the past year - he is starting over. If those things result in positive change, it will take a few years, as they draft and develop better talent. So what does that system need to do that? Time. And these younger players who now will be a large chunk of the 25-man roster gives the team exactly that. Time to get the system up and running in its new model. The scouting and player development has been the achilles' heel of this team. I guess it looks a little unorthodox at first and I was wondering how KW was going to overhaul our previously horrible scouting dept but it does kind of make sense. I really didn't expect him to completely (and I mean completely) gut our farm system though. I'd said something in the Swisher thread about the MLB roster being steady for the next couple of years while the bare cupboard down in the minors is replenished with (hopefully) better players as a result of better drafts, so that the farm system could end up stronger if it works out the right way. The way you said it is a lot more thorough though. In the meantime, the MLB roster isn't embarrassing like it was when we entered the offseason, and with a little luck the team could even be contenders.

Detroit's 2008 lineup, barring major injuries, might even be better than ours was in 2006. That lineup won us 90 games.

I haven't read all 34 pages of this thread but I imagine somewhere in here, someone had to say "wow we have quite literally NO farm system right now." Although we didn't have much of anything before. I guess as of right now, pending a little luck and possibly a Uribe, Crede, or even Konerko trade the MLB roster is steady enough to last a couple of years while the allegedly-fixed scouting dept. can re-do some of the really bad drafts we've had over the past few years. Keeping my fingers crossed, I was pretty pessimistic a few weeks ago but it's not implausible to think this org. can get back in shape.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 02:50 AM) Also, if it makes anyone feel better, I completely feel that the Tigers rotation is way over-rated. I used to have a really hard time convincing Tigers fans of this but some of them are finally coming around. They have as many question marks in their rotation than we do, honestly.

If this works out I will send KW a thank you note with an apology for me being pissed off at him a couple of weeks ago.

QUOTE(chiguy79 @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 01:15 PM) Agree 110% Red Sox fans are terrible now...rank as most annoying fans in the country. They are also Patriots fans, and the same rule applies.

Meh there's really nothing you can do. Hell, you just named a pitcher and a hitter, if both of them have the same advantage, does it matter anymore? You can't really delete records or anything, there's so many. You just have to be aware of the caveat that there was a decade-plus period (at least) where everyone was juicing and consider that for all the stats coming from that era. BTW Bonds was already easily a legit first-ballot HOFer before he became the incredible hulk.

QUOTE(max power @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 10:11 AM) I think the cubs fans are known for complaining a lot, including booing their own team but still showing up. Not never complaining. All the ones I know complain a lot. Yeah I think the stereotype of them being content to lose and never complaining is obsolete now. They won't admit it, but since '05 that hasn't been the same. They want a WS too and they're getting impatient. They were being really harsh when they realized their overrated team was choking away the first round, the booing was pretty loud. Well, that goes for the "real" Cub fans, anyway. The drunken frat boys are still what they are.

QUOTE(jenks45monster @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:38 PM) Indians dont even come near the Tigers on paper. Theyve got the whole package. Defense, speed to an extent, veterans, veteran pitching, power, a bullpen, and a great backstop in Pudge. Outside of Verlander, the rest of their rotation has a lot of question marks. I am not at all sold on Bonderman, who you don't know from day to day whether he is a #1 or a #5. And Todd Jones is still their closer. I'd be surprised if they didn't develop some holes on that staff.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:33 PM) Except Moss wasn't injured, just unmotivated. The question is, would he be ok with being sent down again? Maybe if the Sox could sign him to the same type of deal the Twins gave Craig Monroe. He only gets the full $3 mil + IF he makes the club. If not, he gets a $600K buyout. I would do THAT with Prior to see what he's got. Agreed... he is not someone you want to pin hopes on and you want an easy out if it blows up in your face.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:35 PM) Moss is a terrible comparison. For every person who was "like 'oh, I don't know if Moss is any good still, he might be a distraction,'" there was a smarter person with a memory who was "like 'remember when Moss actually cared about footbal. He was really good. I bet he cares again as soon as he puts on a Pats uni. The Pats are the team to beat again.'" Prior, meanwhile has been plagued by random injuries, finally going under the knife this year. If Prior could turn on hot and cold running awesome like Moss, he wouldn't have spent the better part of the last 3 seasons throwing towels in Iowa. Sure he might recover, but a recovery is far less likely than Randy Moss being interested in catching touchdowns and breaking records for the best team football has ever seen. There were a good number of people that thought Moss had lost his ability as an elite receiver and it went past motivation... but that's neither here nor there.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:29 PM) People conviently forget their White Sox history when they talk about melting things down. People STILL talk about the strike year and the White Flag trade. There were people who literally didn't go to games for 10+ years because of those incidents. Yeah I was one of those people, actually it was the strike, I only have blurry memories of the White Flag trade. I didn't start watching baseball again until like 1999, I finally caved in because I was tired of watching the Bears lose

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:28 PM) As would most people on this board. But, the game isn't played on paper. And this team hasn't played one game in 2008. Shoot, we're not even IN 2008. I know, and I didn't expect the disaster that was 2007 to be rectified in one year. And Crede and Uribe still have to be traded. But there's just still so much to be done to make this team a legit WS contender and it doesn't seem like it's happening fast enough... juggernaut Tigers in the division and Liriano's return notwithstanding. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed on all of the young players playing to their full potential at once because that's probably the best shot this team has right now.

So that's my bad, guys, and I got Halle Berry pregnant too... I'm on a roll this year but I'll be more careful next time

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 03:22 PM) The end result was a 2005 World Series championship. Yeah, and that was absolutely great. Unfortunately I just looked at my calendar and it's 2007, and I'm thinking we have a .500 team right now. I don't know about you but I'd kind of like to experience 2005 again someday.