lostfan

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 02:40 PM) The sharpness of play, particularly in the field and in basic fundamental moves (hitting the cutoff man, doing rundowns correctly, people calling for the ball correctly, people in the right position when a play needs to be backed up) that we saw in 2012 was the best compliment I could give him. That team did darn near every basic baseball move correctly for 5 months. This was a breath of fresh air in contrast to the previous year. Or well more like the previous 3 years.

If we get a new manager can we get better players too?

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) The go ahead and put the same restrictions on voting that there currently are on guns. You mean you have to fill out a form and register and you go in a database to buy guns too? Here, look - I will tell you a secret: when you're talking voter ID (and only talking voter ID) we dirty libs already recognize that we either have lost or will lose that battle in certain states and have moved on from that and have adapted. So now, making sure everyone has an ID is part of voter registration drives and they take old people to get their state ID and whatnot since now there is ample time to prepare for it. That's not even what's at issue anymore. It becomes a problem when the rules are changed in an election year, when early voting (which is important for people who have to work and can't take off Election Day) hours get cut only in poor/minority/Democratic neighborhoods but not elsewhere, when the lines are like 4 hours long in urban neighborhoods, when state legislatures try to do stuff like divide electoral votes "proportionally" which means according to gerrymandered districts, etc. etc. etc.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 12:00 PM) Thinking in the broad picture, if someone used this phraseology when it came to voting, what would your reaction be. Remember these are both constitutionally protected items here. It has always fascinated me how different rights get treated differently. If you ask the question in reverse, we ask the same question

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 11:27 AM) Lostfan, honestly, if the script were reversed here - it's a predominately black neighborhood that's experiencing crime being committed by white teens - and you happen to see a white teen that you've never seen before, you're not thinking to yourself "wonder what he's up to?" Maybe you don't care enough to call the cops on him (but you might, especially if you've been a victim of a crime and watched as the cops did nothing for you and your neighbors), but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't at least think that to yourself. I understand the problem that you're talking about, but I think in this situation it really isn't some overtly racist act of Zimmerman to wonder what Martin is doing given what was happening. It's not like he's living in a densely populated and diverse area and he's just assuming every black kid is up to no good. I'd have to go further into white privilege (summary: basically these are issues white people never have to think about and basically take for granted, sometimes assuming it applies equally to blacks or other minorities the way it does them) and that's getting off topic. But honestly if i saw a white kid in a black neighborhood and they were doing something illegal I'd figure they were there to buy weed or something. When I was in high school we had a NHS induction ceremony and my dad came to watch it, and he was dressed in a suit and everything. We got dismissed early and as he's driving me home, he's on Honore turning back onto 63rd around the corner from where my school was and the guys on the corner were waving at him to come stop. He laughed like "of course, what else does a middle-aged white guy want in this neighborhood at 12:30 in the afternoon?"

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 11:38 AM) I really think if you drill down into the legal aspects here, the problem is in a conflict between laws. The manslaughter charge is intended to align with showing that a person's actions primarily and ultimately led to a death, even if that was not the originial intention (as it would be in murder). Given that basic, common criminal law principle, there isn't much question that what Zimmerman did should be manslaughter. Then there is the stand-your-ground law, which gives special protection to people in confrontations beyond what was on the books (and, yes, beyond what is found in statutes in other states). The protection given here, specifically the law basically stating that you do not have to retreat to avoid conflict, means he was protected in his actions. So really, to me, the problem is specifically the stand-your-ground law. A law which is not only unnecessary, but inherently dangerous. Hopefully it is modified or removed from the statutes at some point in the future. All the rest of these topics, about race, definition of stalking, poor prosecution work, jury decision-making, jury instructions, whether or not people should be able to carry guns, etc., are red herrings here. They make for theater but don't get at the heart of the problem. But the defense didn't use SYG.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 11:14 AM) Unfortunately, there is nothing that can stop a person from doing this. People profile, all the time, all around us, and we usually don't even notice it. And THAT is why black people are so pissed about this. This doesn't translate well from tweets and Facebook posts. Mine was lamenting "how they see us" or something like that. Lost in translation long ago. It makes us feel like we are pariahs and a subclass of 3/5 of a person and the resistance to trying to make that point feels like a slap in the face. QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 11:15 AM) yeah I've asked that it be changed in the thread a couple of times out of embarrassment but it always gets buried. Another mod saw my post and did it I guess, lol

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 11:12 AM) I almost filed an anonymous amber alert when you posted a picture with you and your son at the beach on FB Because he's so damn light he looks like a white boy

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 11:02 AM) If he's in a position where you agree he is fully within his rights to call for help, run, or call 911, ten he's in a position where it's just as reasonable for him to attempt basic physical self defense. 911 is not going to bring help before this guy finds him. Being black and walking while otherwise minding your business is apparently a valid reason to call 911. Comforting to know that's the country that I live in and that's what people see when I'm not wearing a suit or playing with my son or doing something else inherently non-threatening.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 11:02 AM) Nothing points to Zimmerman being a racist, no matter how badly people wish he was. I don't think Zimmerman was a racist (meaning I don't think he was itching to kill a black kid) but I do think he caused Trayvon's death as a direct consequence of his actions, it would not have happened otherwise, and that he ultimately bears responsibility for it. That responsibility apparently is no reflected in Florida criminal court but it certainly will in civil court. However there are a ton of other racial aspects that are being ignored or are misunderstood and in some cases they're cheered and encouraged unfortunately which really pisses me off.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 10:52 AM) When he fears imminent death. It's the same standard that applies to everyone. And you may or may not get a jury of your peers to agree with you. And btw, I don't agree that knocking someone down with a body blow or trying to knock them out for being followed is an appropriate response. Screaming for help, calling 911, running to the closest house, etc. are more reasonable actions. ding ding ding If you're black, that leans much closer towards "may not"

I just noticed Trayvon's name is spelled in the title and now it bothers me but because I'm a s***ty mod I can't change it.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 10:41 AM) If there was overwhelming evidence that Zimmerman was pummeling Martin's head into the curb, and he was forced to shoot in self defense, he absolutely should walk. If you're being tailed and never physically touched, I don't think you could ever convince a jury that you feel imminent death/great bodily harm. Not my question, though. What legal protection does Trayvon have to defend himself in that situation? Oh, let's add "Zimmerman is unarmed" to this. Is a jury of five white women and a Latina going to give a black kid with a gun the benefit of the doubt when he claims self-defense against an unarmed white man (I know Zimmerman is hispanic but whatever he's fair-skinned) and find him "not guilty?" I'm thinking no and there's statistical evidence to back that up that I don't have the time to look up right now. And here is not where I'm calling for new laws, I'm pointing out this is where society itself f***s up. The whole reason this case ever bothered me in the first place.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 10:35 AM) Would it be possible to legislate additional responsibility upon people who do choose to carry a concealed weapon? Basically, in the case of an armed person, raise the standard for what is a "Self defense shooting" significantly? Make this type of person actually have legal consequences if they don't stop and size up the situation before taking the shot. I really have no idea how this could work, but if you won't give me "Get the gun out of his hands in the first place" as an option, then weakening his authority to shoot (the opposite of what SYG laws are doing) is about all I have left. I dunno about Florida but usually people who get concealed carry permits are required to go to training on the proper use of deadly force

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 10:25 AM) lol, clearly the parents should have been provided a government sponsored abortion. Problem solved. That wasn't the point being made, but ok

QUOTE (MexSoxFan#1 @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 10:29 AM) I love how Y2HH was pontificating about avoiding this thread because of the insults being hurled by both sides and then without provocation, throws an insult at another poster...hooray for consistency This is what I mean - come on just let it go. We'll let your "f*** you" a couple pages ago slide too.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 10:23 AM) What would the law say? Instigating fights negates self-defense, that's already law. I know in your dream world concealed carry wouldn't be legal, but that's not happening so there's no change there. So what, if you disobey 911 operators you lose your self-defense rights? Really? Is that where we want to go? So now let's say that Trayvon was 18 not 17, and he was carrying an actual gun and not just pictures of ones in his phone (it's funny to me that the pro-Zimmerman crowd had a problem with THAT, it's ok for some people to have guns and not others, kinda says it all but anyway). Then let's say he was being followed and then confronted (which he feels is threatening), so at what point does he get to claim he was acting in his own defense? Leaving aside exactly what happened because we don't know and and whether he was right or wrong to escalate because it's irrelevant, if he kills Zimmerman and goes to trial - definitely would happen despite the alternate reality Zimmerman's lawyer seems to live in where Zimmerman wouldn't even be arrested if he was black - is a jury going to come to the same conclusion and find him not guilty because the state couldn't prove its case completely? I have very little confidence in that kind of outcome. Black men get put on death row on less.

Guys let's stop with the personal invective, and if you see a s*** post you don't like that's not addressed to you, just ignore it.

http://www.forwardprogressives.com/voting-...publican-voter/

That sucked.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 14, 2013 -> 01:36 PM) While I can never "get that" and say that "I know you you feel", since as you know I'm a white guy, the question posed is what you can you tell your kids...well, that's a few things you can tell your kids, regardless of their skin color. And you're right, a lot of things haven't changed, and I feel it will be a long time before they ever *truly* do. I plan on telling my kids a lot of these same things when they're old enough, despite being white...you still have to be careful out there...something we've all heard countless times. When I saw people bring up the THC thing I thought "and? So what? If you'd have shot me one night when I was 17 I'd have had THC in my system too. So that makes it all ok?" It also makes the point for them whether they realize it or not. They're saying "we'll he had it coming anyway, good riddance"

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 14, 2013 -> 01:23 PM) I assume you don't have kids based on this, but seriously...were you EVER a kid? Did you ever have any sort of, "what to do in an attempted kidnapping training", or "what to do when a stranger tries to give you candy" lessons? Or even, what to do if you're actively being stalked? Seriously. I figured this was something every parent put their kids through. You can't control being suspicious to someone, but you CAN attract attention if some creep ass is following you. You yell, you scream, you make noise...you attract attention, you bang on a neighbors door, a strangers door, whoever has lights on, or...if you're close enough to home, you go there. I think the person Balta is referring to is a black woman, I'd have to read my comments to make sure, but in that case that strikes right at the heart of what this issue means for black people. As the parent of a black child that's really jarring. You have to recognize that you're just not seen the same as a white kid walking through a neighborhood. There's someone who's going to look at you and conclude you don't belong, even though you weren't doing anything wrong and minding your own business (that Trayvon had THC in his system at the time is completely irrelevant, that his phone had pictures of guns in it is irony). Anyway it's hard to explain this to your kids. We'd like to think things have changed, but a lot of things haven't.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 14, 2013 -> 12:57 PM) I just thought it was funny. Forget about crimes and evidence. It came down to the state this occurred in. And the fact that the only person that knows exactly what went down was murdered. Well, if this happened in New York Zimmerman would probably be in prison, but in Florida, he didn't technically do anything wrong.

I don't like it when people bring up Burress or Vick, they have nothing to do with this. Different states. Different crimes. Different evidence.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 14, 2013 -> 12:38 PM) Oh I see. In this particular case, black people shouldn't be allowed to use the legal system entitled to others. They need to just get over it. Thanks for the head's up and advice. Marissa Alexander should accept her 20-year prison sentence for not killing anyone while defending herself and we should get over it, because that was the verdict