DaTank

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 02:09 PM) Why will Joe "most likely" come back 100%? The back is the worst injury to have as a hitter. Joe's health is anything from guaranteed especially if we are talking about a full season here. Personally, I have a problem believing Joe will play more than 120 games next season. It's too bad, but Joe just doesn't have enough clout on the trade market to bring in anything of real value at this time. Where do you see 100%? I just said healthy. Most likely healthy enough to play in a Major League game again in his lifetime. I wish you could just wait this one out until mid season and trade then but, his value can go even lower by then, by what you mentioned if he sits out a lot.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:57 PM) Andrew Miller and Clayton Kershaw are southpaw aces. Gio Gonzalez is not close to them. Gio will never be an "ace." He'll likely settle in as a #3 SP. Prospects aren't rated merely on ceiling. Gio being #24 doesn't mean he has a higher ceiling than the number #25 rated prospect or the #100 rated prospect. He's just a better bet to reach his ceiling. Joe Crede is coming off major back surgery. He's missed almost a full season and close to 7 months of baseball activities. Turn it around. Would you want to trade Fields (who's not even on Kemp's level) for an injury riddled CF who's a FA after this next season and a B grade prospect? I know I would not. As I noted earlier I realize Joe is coming off of major back surgery. If he comes back healthy which he most likely will he will not be the same but he won't go to the dumps. I see him putting up lesser numbers but still major league numbers. I would like Joe to be part of a deal for some starting pitcher. Keep Fields IMO

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:40 PM) You're overrating both Sox players. I'm not the one who ranks the prospects. I am not the one who decides that south paws are special and valuable. Gio is ranked 24th not by me, but by professionals. I personally don't think he should be that high. But since he is why not use it well. And how can you overrate Crede's real life numbers? He should have won 3 Gold Gloves by now and can hit 25-30 homers per year. He hit 22 in 05' and 30 in 06'. Explain how I am overrating them IYO.

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 12:43 AM) But A) he won't be playing for at least half of the season. It doesn't matter what he's shown us. He's not on the team. And B- having major surgery on his pitching shoulder does change what he has already shown us. He may not be able to pitch like he did in the past. He had major surgery.....on his pitching shoulder. How does having surgery change the past? My point is that he was great. Never even mentioned that having surgery on his pitching shoulder will not affect him. It almost 90% will affect him.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:24 PM) Neither player is close to the player Kemp is and never will be. Crede's trade value is very low. If KW could have gotten anything close to a player like Kemp using Crede, Joe would already be gone. A #24 ranked south paw starting pitching prospect and a 3rd baseman who can hit .285 with 25-30 HR's and around a .980 fielding % for this guy even though he is the top Dodger prospect. South paw studs don't come walking into view everyday. Certainly Gio has the hype of becoming a south paw ace.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 01:13 PM) You just finished an explanation on a deal being laughed at then propose Crede and a B+ prospect for Kemp? Not at all. The only young guys they would get rid of would be Loney or Kemp and no way they're getting rid of Russel Martin or Billingsley. A healthy Crede (which is expected) and a south paw #24 prospect in Gio actually makes sense. Lefties are a ton more valuable then right handed pitchers.

QUOTE(2nd_city_saint787 @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 11:27 PM) i like that idea too, actually even more so then what i had originally....Votto is unproven at the mlb level and loney looks like he can be a flat out beast in this league for many years. id go as far as trying (key word trying) for a PK, Ryan Sweeney and Gio for Loney and Billingsley (i know im gonna ge flamed for saying that but come on now its not that bad a deal) as far as quentin goes i think you give him to the trading deadline to perform then you consider trading him The deal you brought up with PK probably would be laughed at. It would be awesome but theres no way they do that trade. If you think about it PK for Loney and then Sweeney and Gio for Billingsley. That would be laughed at. If they wanted to do that deal itd have to be a Chris Young type outfielder in place of Ryan Sweeney with Gio. I wouldn't mind a Crede + mid to top level prospect for Kemp.

QUOTE(2nd_city_saint787 @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 06:15 PM) as said in another thread here i am about to have a lil fun playing the sox gm.... first trade Buehrle to the reds for Joey Votto, Josh Hamilton, and Johnny Cueto. PK to the Giants for Lincecum or Cain trade crede to the brewers for Carlos Villanueva (brew crew have a ton of mlb ready starting pitchers, this move can also allow them to move Braun to the OF) trade uribe to whichever team offers the best young reliever trade dye and spects for carlos gomez and joe smith that gives you Vaz Lincecum/cain Danks Vilanueva Cueto/count/floyd/DLS/Gio (can you imagine a few years from now lincecum/danks/cueto/dls/gio) C AJ 1b Votto 2b Richar SS OC 3b fields LF Quentin CF Hamilton RF Gomez DH Thome let thome and OC walk after this year and you should have a ton of money to buy a couple top tier free agents and if everyone lives up to potential then next year you should have yourself a good team for awhile. I like everything on here except Quentin. IMO he won't ever get back in the right direction. But really everything else on this lineup is awesome. If the Reds would include Bailey instead of Votto I would be fine with that and then trading PK to the Dodgers for Loney + prospect. Wow you can only dream...

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 11:04 PM) Minnesota? Definately overlooked the fact that they've got guys like Juan Rincon, Dennys Rayes, along with Joe Nathan to form an an above average pen. Unless Joe Nathan gets traded which is unlikely this is a solid pen. I don't completely take back what I said about Cleveland though. With Rafael Betancout, a decent Borowski and adding Kobayashi out of Japan probably won't hurt their pen.

QUOTE(scenario @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 10:27 PM) The point was 'one of the worst bullpens in baseball'. 11th is not good. It is not in the 'middle of the pack'. If you want a real perspective on this... go to one of the Tigers sites and read what they think of their bullpen. Without Zumaya? The answer is "SUCKS". I never said that they were good without Zumaya. And with being so close to 8th, if they were 8th, they would be a middle of the pack bullpen.

QUOTE(scenario @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 10:10 PM) The Sox relievers as a team were 12th in the AL in 2007. The Tigers? 11th. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggreg...ng&type=reg With the Sox having 1.10 point more ERA then Detroit. And Detroit only being .13 away from being number 8 on that list.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 09:06 PM) I would call them below average because; 1 - Zumaya out for half the season obviously and he's their most dominant reliever 2 - Jones would be one of the bottom 5 closers in baseball. He's on a level with Borowski. 3 - Rodney got hit hard at times last season IIRC. And other than those 3, who else do they have? Jason Grilli? Not much else there that I can remember off the top of my head. I wouldn't call Jones a "proven" guy, in terms of yes he has over 300 saves, but recently his ERA has not been good, especially at a pitchers park. Still, they shouldn't be called one of the worst bullpens in all of baseball. They've got the second best bullpen in our division next to Cleveland. And IMO they have a middle rank bullpen in all of baseball, with a healthy Zumaya of course.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 08:31 PM) You do know Zumaya is out for 1/2 the season right? Yes i do. But that doesn't change what he has already shown us.

QUOTE(rockren @ Dec 17, 2007 -> 01:27 PM) The Tigers gave away too much pitching in Jurrjens and Miller. Don't get me wrong, I'm very envious of the Tigers and their expectations next year...but they'll wish they had one of those guys when they find out that D-Train can't get anyone out. Not to mention their bullpen is one of the worst in baseball. I expect big things from the Tigers next year, but their potential "Achilles Heel" is obvious. The thing that stands out to me here is that "their bullpen is of the worst in baseball. How do you figure that? Joel Zumaya, 23 and already has proven to be top talent throwing over 100MPH quite often. Todd Jones, 39, their closer, a member of the 300 save club, and yes I realize he is aging and has had an up and down career but you can't really call this guy "bad" compared to some relievers we have. Fransisco Rodney, 30, set-up man, yes he had Tommy John surgery after the 03' campaign, but with a mid-90's fastball and a devastating change-up, this guy is able to dazzle hitters. So really you cannot call this bullpen bad, at all compared to ours. We have 1 trusty bullpen guy in closer Bobby Jenks. They have 3 proven guys.

QUOTE(TheKillerB's @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 02:39 PM) Why go for Tyner when Freel can be had? Freel can be had, in a trade. Tyner can be had, as a free agent. Why trade for Freel when we won't do anything this year anyway. Let Richar develop.

IMO I think Rowand said he wasn't in a rush to decide who to sign with because he wanted to see if the Sox would make him an offer. It's terrible how badly he wanted to come back but of course KW denies him that. Rowand may have even signed 6/55 with the Sox as a discount.

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 08:22 AM) If the Whitesox are going to be competitive they have two options. Option 1 - Spend and spend and spend. Go out and acquire top free agent talent to try to compete. This would mean mending fences with Boras and actually pursuing big name free agents. This is a very unlikely option as long as JR owns the team, the Sox cannot spend at the level of the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Angels, or Tigers. Option 2 - Tear the house down and build it up again. Move the veteran players on the roster for youngsters that are not major league ready to maximize the return value that you can receive. Cut the payroll at least in half and use the money that is saved to sign draft picks, international players, and the rule 5 draft. Grow the team from the minor league system and then add in some free agent veterans to plug in holes. Option 1 cant happen, and I agree with you as long as JR owns the team. And the fact that all of the premier FA talent is gone by now. Option 2 won't happen as long as KW is the GM. It's all about winning now for him

QUOTE(lostfan @ Dec 12, 2007 -> 02:43 PM) Outside of Verlander, the rest of their rotation has a lot of question marks. I am not at all sold on Bonderman, who you don't know from day to day whether he is a #1 or a #5. And Todd Jones is still their closer. I'd be surprised if they didn't develop some holes on that staff. Not that they are the best staff, just that they do have veterans, unlike us with 2 spots filled by very young guys in Danks and Floyd.

Indians dont even come near the Tigers on paper. Theyve got the whole package. Defense, speed to an extent, veterans, veteran pitching, power, a bullpen, and a great backstop in Pudge.

Would have liked to sign Eckstein and Iguchi or Alexi Ramierez if one of them was not able to be signed. Kept Garland. Not waited this long to get outfield help. Picked up another durable starter. Jason Jennings or Carlos Silva? Would have had all 5 starting spots filled and put Danks and Floyd in the bullpen. HIT THE JAPANESE MARKET. I am big on the Japanese market. Fukudome? The 2 relievers who names i forgot as well. I dont even think that M Cab was in our neighborhood. Its just disappointing a division rival got him. As for trades if the Angels would do a Konerko and Crede for Willits, Kochman, and possibly throw in Santana, I would be all over it. I also like Crede and a prospect for a top-notch reliever. This deal may have also eliminated that ridiculous Linebrink deal. Buehrle for a Jacoby Ellsbury or Buchholz? If the Santana deal doesnt work out for the BoSox. Dye for a starter. Maybe Kasmir down in Tampa. Konerko for prospects. Jenks for 2 or 3 good, solid prospects. All of this only in a rebuild mode. Finally, FIRE KW. PLEASE

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 11:50 PM) There were other options out there -- the Japanese relievers signed by CLE and KC. The Sox were supposedly interested in the guy that signed with KC. The other option is to give Broadway, Egbert, Aardsma (at least he was briefly good last year), Gio, Haegar, and MacDougal shots at jobs and save the money. I would have liked the Japanese way. Wish we would have signed both for 2/9.5 deal. Would have signed them to that without even seeing them pitch. Japanese players are extremely disciplined and have amazing work ethics. And that would have filled 2 relief spots instead of 1 and taken 2 Japanese relievers away from our rivals

QUOTE(joeynach @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 11:46 PM) I dont think anyone doubted that hes overpayed. He 100% is. But what else was KW gonna do. Trot out Bukvich and Dewon Day again, go bring Riske back. I mean Linebrink might not be Joba Chamberlin what what are other options did we have to improve our pen. Your right but I think this was a pressure deal as well as the Garland - Cab deal. We needed to upgrade the pen and KW obviously has no problem overpaying this guy. We did have no other options but i think a 4/14 would have made a ton of more sense, and saved us 5 mil. to get another piece of the chances we let go earlier this offseason.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 11:45 PM) How many 2nd basemen does one team need. The cubs have like 17 of them. It still would have given them some chemistry with the Jap players though lol.

If i was a Cub fan I would have wanted this for them. Especially with the signing of Fuku. This would have added a bit more chemistry for them and giving Fuku someone to learn about the MLB from along the way.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 11, 2007 -> 11:36 PM) Any free agent signing from now on sets the franchise back. We aren't a free agent away from winning. Please don't sign Rowand. If you do, for the love of god, do not give him a no trade clause. You mean sets the franchise even FURTHER back.