ThunderBolt

Yeah, can we just agree to disagree? I'm not really getting my rocks off on debating about Javier Vasquez. A guy whose neither on the team i root for nor particularly a favorite of mine.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 23, 2009 -> 07:39 PM) What he achieved for the White Sox? He was paid handsomely and came up big in 2007 when the Sox were one of the worst teams in baseball for most of the year. When they needed him in 2006 and 2008 he wet the bed. Are we really going to scoff at him for being the only good pitcher in 2007? How is that to his detriment? He did his job the team didn't. I don't think a franschise with our tenous history with pitching can really afford to look down on: 33 Starts per year, 200 + K's and innings with an era of around 4 in a hitters park. With years like 2006 29 CHW AL 11 12 .478 4.84 33 32 0 1 0 0 202.2 206 116 109 23 56 2 184 15 0 7 872 98 1.293 9.1 1.0 2.5 8.2 3.29 2007 30 CHW AL 15 8 .652 3.74 32 32 0 2 0 0 216.2 197 95 90 29 50 2 213 7 0 5 882 126 1.140 8.2 1.2 2.1 8.8 4.26 2008 31 CHW AL 12 16 .429 4.67 33 33 0 1 0 0 208.1 214 113 108 25 61 2 200 6 0 2 890 98 1.320 9.2 1.1 2.6 8.6 3.28 I never said he was a superb pitcher, i've said multiple times that i'm glad he's gone, that he couldn't perform in the stretch run, that he's homer-prone, but to argue that he did nothing for this team is absolute bull. It reeks of a flawed mentality that a guy should take a permanent hit for a small sample size.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 23, 2009 -> 02:23 PM) Other than ERA? So basically, you are saying that other than the most key statistic for starting pitchers, and in the most key pressure situations, he's a good pitcher. OK, I'll give you that. But that means very little. He's a decent pitcher, but he's not a good candidate for that ballpark or that atmosphere, and everything in his career (by your own accounting) says he's not likely to be very good for NYY. I'd have him pegged for an ERA near 4 next year. I'm not going to argue that Javy's going to dominate the AL, i just don't think he's as bad as everyone says. I don't disagree with any specific point of yours, Javy's a flawed guy, and i agree that the park factor and ERA trends put him in a bad spot, i just hate to see Sox fans forget what he achieved for this team.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Dec 23, 2009 -> 12:31 PM) Who cares if you can strike people out when you allow 4-5 runs per start? He has never emulated his success in the NL in the AL. How is that hard to see? Javy's averages over 200 innings, 34 starts and 187 k's in the AL. His main detriment is the gopher ball, there's nothing other then an inflated ERA that says he's been anything but an above-average pitcher in the AL. I don't think a propensity to suck in some big spots proves that he's lacking in anything but cajones. He's a good pitcher, the numbers back that up.

QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Dec 23, 2009 -> 10:25 AM) I don't agree with this. Jon Link and John Ely have some decent potential and we gave them both away in the Pierre deal. Ely was nearly dominant in AA last year and Link also showed real promise (though he's an older 'prospect' so his upside probably isn't as high). We have a half dozen Jon Links in our organization, and we have a couple of guys ahead or just behind Ely. Meanwhile, we don't have a Juan Pierre. Math works for me.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 23, 2009 -> 03:04 AM) Or a 5th starter option considering the White Sox. I am not even sampling his playoff numbers, the guy isnt as good as our #4 guy. Agreed, but he's better then the Yankees 4 guy.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 23, 2009 -> 12:50 AM) Teahen's known as the best baserunner in all of baseball. Which is all the more impressive considering he's a really built guy.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 11:25 PM) Why do you attempt to justify that with an "only"? That's a big sample size. You're right to point that out. 120 or so starts is a pretty big sample size. My bad.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:41 PM) So his strikeouts and moving to an even bigger launching pad with render his high ERA meaningless? You lost me there buddy. He is a flyball pitcher moving to the toughest park he's pitched in, in a stacked league. In our rotation right now he would be slotted as the #5 starter. Peavy and Buehrle are clearly better than Javy, and Danks the last 2 years (out of three) has thrown up sub 4 ERA's in the AL which is something Javy did once in 4 years. Gavin actually gave up less runs this year, but has gone 3.84 and 4.06 in the AL the last two years. I'm not going to argue that Javy doesn't have his flaws, i just think he gets a bad rap for a small sample size of actual games pitched. He's a perfectly fine 3-4 option, just don't expect him to man up when it "counts".

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 10:24 PM) I saw a guy who got benched in 2004 and gave up 6 runs in less than 2 innings when he was put out there in the playoffs. A guy who really wasn't that great in 2005 in the NL, who then really wasn't that great again in 2006 when he came back to the AL. put up 1 or 2 games, and regularly fell apart on a team in a pennant chase. A guy who was legitimately really good on a terrible team in 2007, and a guy who was frankly, worse than you say in 2008 on another team in a pennant chase. Finally, he was very good again back in the junior league in 2009. If the comparison is Javy versus Hughes and Joba...ok, Javy probably is an upgrade. But this guy frustrated us for so long, this guy was an inadequate option for even a 4th starter for 2/3 years with us, and there's plenty of reason for the people here to think he just isn't going to do anything impressive for the Yankees. The numbers don't back that mentality up. Look, I’m glad Javy is gone, he was a p****, a whiner, and Ozzie and he will never see eye to eye. But I can't question that he produced for us, and he's a definite improvement for the Yankees considering the other options were Joba, Mitre, and Gaudin. Javy took us pretty far in his three years here. The problem was that once he got us there he bailed the hell off that train, and descended into a s***-storm of mediocrity,

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:18 PM) 4.52 in the AL. Only 4 years in the AL. 3 of those in The Cell. I'll concede that he very well could give up 30 bombs in New York this year, but his K-numbers and innnings as a 3-4 starter will be enough to render that stat essentially meaningless.

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:50 PM) I don't see how the philosophy is god awful, at least with your god awful explanation. Oh well, I know what I saw when Javy was on this team. I saw a guy who struck out 184-213-200 in 3 years,while averaging 208 innings and 33 starts per year. I saw a guy who did all of that and got traded because he crapped the bed in a couple of stretch games and had a falling out with his manager. What did you see?

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 06:07 PM) If you hated Phantom Menace you must watch the review on this site. It's broken up into segments. This really is genius. "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOUR FACE???"

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 05:06 PM) "Don't tell me about the numbers you put up, tell me when you put them up." I know I messed that quote up, but you get the jist of it. That's a god awful philosophy. Hell, Dan Hudson could win me Game 1 on the World Series, but if he gives me 33 other starts of s*** then I’ve compromised my baseball team by throwing him out there, just because he produced “when it counts.”That’s a hell of a small sample size to make an objective assessment over.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 04:41 PM) In the NL. Okay. He was pretty good in the AL prior to last year too. Still a good pitcher even accounting for a league adjustment period.

QUOTE (chiguy79 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 12:06 PM) Delgado was part of two of the biggest "loser" mets teams ever.... I've seen a lot of Mets games out here, he was hardly the biggest factor in their collapses. It had more to do with the pen and a disturbing lack of depth.

I don't think Delgado's done and i do agree he fits a need here. I don't want him before a lot of other guys, but if it comes down to it, bring him in.

I hope he does well.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 03:14 PM) Javy is useless when it counts so no way they pass us. Javy was also arguably one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball last year. So, yeah. They pass us.

Javy has been worth 5 WAR for 2 of the last 3 years. He was pitching in a hitters park for two of those years. Hell, his entire career has consisted of 6 seasons of either 5 WAR or damn close to it (4.5), and he's only been pitching for 8 years.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 02:50 PM) You really think that makes them better? I do. I'd rather have Javy then Huges or Joba.

QUOTE (G&T @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 12:20 PM) I think your definition of "great" needs some tweaking. Javy has a career k rate of 8.1. Which seems to improve or stay stable as he gets older. His other peripherals are stable except for being slightly homer-prone. Which i'd take if a guy is going to strike me out 200 per year. Not to mention the guy averages 219 innings per year, which is good for about 34 starts. That's a damn good pitcher. I'd rather have Tyler Flowers, he had no place on the Sox, but he's a dominate K pitcher. You cannot overlook that .http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vazquja01.shtml

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 12:07 PM) They traded for Javy, I don't see anything great here. Look at his numbers. Javy V is a great pitcher. He was great for the Sox too. Just becasue he pisses himself in big moments, doesn't make him less great, it makes him a s***ty big-game pitcher. He's going to be incredible as a 3-4 option for the Yankees.

I can't understand why the M's were so urgent to trade Morrow. Unless his arm's about to fall off, i don't see the percentage.

So, the Yankees get another great player for absolutely nothing again. Now, this is competitive balance.