Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 07:01 PM) If they were hitting the Sox would be in 1st place so why trade your best prospect with good starters and a good bullpen? Teams don't trade prospects of Viciedo's caliber very often. Even if there was no spot for him on this roster right now, there will definitely be a spot for him next year one way or the other. So KW isn't going to trade Viciedo unless he's truly desperate and believes his job is on the line, but that's not going to be the case if Dunn and Rios are hitting. Regardless, we aren't in a position to dump our only impact prospect, especially when we have lot of big/bad contracts and may need to cut significant payroll soon. I know the Hudson deal has some people spooked, but I honestly believe that KW values Viciedo much more. I think he'll be the on roster by some point in August, I just hope we aren't out of it by then.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 01:30 PM) How many teams have six major league ready starters? That is a ridiculous standard with price of pitching in this day and age. Who said anything about six major league starters? I'm simply talking about an organizational depth chart. If one of your starters goes down, usually you look in your system for a replacement. Not once did I say that guy needs to be major league ready. More likely than not, the guy won't be very good. However, he'll probably be a lot better than your other options and that's why he's that #6 guy. Next year, we may need Santiago to be that guy. We don't have a lot of other options to choose, given our poor system.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) To be fair though...a "top five SP prospect in our system" really doesn't mean all that much, and you know that. If he turns into something valuable it's like hitting the lotto. If we change the odds slightly, it doesn't bug me, especially since I can make a few arguments for the odds going either way. A top five SP prospect may not mean much in terms of his value to other organizations, but that doesn't change his value to us right now. Let's say we lose Mark and Edwin this offseason. We're heading into next year with Peavy, Floyd, Danks, and Humber. Who's your #5 starter? Hopefully Chris Sale. But what happens if he doesn't work or Peavy goes down for an extended period of time? Who gets the call? The point is you should always a #6 starter in mind before a season, whether it's your long-man (if you have one) or a prospect in AAA/AA. Who will be that guy next year? Right now, I'd say Santiago is as good of as an option as we might have. I don't care if he's a top 100 prospect or not, he may be the best option we got and that player should be considered valuable to us. Don't dick him around if you don't need to. Also, the reason this guy came out of nowhere was he was raw and just learned a new pitch. If anything, he needs more time in the minors refining his stuff than a more name-driven prospect. I don't think a couple weeks in our bullpen will make or break him, but I'd much rather had him in AA working on stuff as a starter. IMO, he'll gain more from the innings at this point than doing side-sessions with our major league staff.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 12:52 PM) Still, for a guy who was on no one's radar at the start of the season, there's probably benefits to being up in the big leagues, dealing with big league scouting reports, big league hitters/pitchers, and the big league coaching staff. A top flight prospect on everyone's radar, I'd be more annoyed about having him and throwing him once or twice in 3 weeks out of the pen. A guy who came out of no where...if he doesn't gain anything from this experience, then we haven't really lost anything. Except he's arguably a top five SP prospect in our system and one of the closest to being MLB ready. If we need a starter in the next year or two, for whatever reason that may be, he'll definitely be high on that list. We're not exactly overflowing with SP prospects. So him coming out nowhere is irrelevant. He needs to continue to develop as a starter in the minors, so wasting a couple weeks in our bullpen as an insurance policy is just delaying his development. That's the purpose of having guys like Harrell around, so we can avoid using our better prospects for these type of crap roles.

QUOTE (Cali @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 02:14 PM) I'm done with this team if Viciedo is gone for a RELIEVER. I'm with you on that. I'd actually cancel our season tickets for 2012 if that happened. Having said that, there is no way KW trades Viciedo. He refused to give him up last year. Don't remember hearing that he was being offered in trade talks in the past. IMO, Viciedo is one of KW's last signs of credibility as a GM. If he becomes a star hitter, it will take off some of the heat from some of his other moves, such as the Hudson deal.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 09:21 PM) Jackson isn't a priority unless someone offers you something better than a sandwich pick And my guess is that someone will. He's going to be one of the best SPs on the market. All it takes is one top 100 prospect and you got yourself a better prospect than a regular sandwich pick. I think it will happen.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 08:40 PM) With what the sox have as tradeable assets, this an be done rapidly if nothing stupid is done. The problem is getting nothing from Dunn Rios and Peavy, which is nearly $50 million. If they were just adequate and we got good returns by dealing Quentin and Danks, were right there. If the struggle, then it's 4 years. Sounds like your proposing retooling rather than rebuilding, which I completely agree with.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 08:23 PM) I disagree. It has to be John Danks or Carlos Quentin. You do listen very closely on PK though depending on what your plan looks like. As long as you get a reasonable package, I think you have to move Jackson no matter where we are in the standing come July 31st. If you can get a young SP who can join your rotation this year or next year, then I'd move Carlos unless we come out of the break hot. If you've made those other moves, then I think you can move Danks without going into full rebuilding mode. You'd have to get a ton of talent back to even consider the move. If you trade Paulie, then we might as well do a full rebuild, because he's such a huge part of this offense and I doubt you'll get enough back for him with Fielder and Pujols on the market this off-season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 07:46 PM) Btw, a 4-6 year rebuilding process would be a disaster. That's "cut payroll down to $50 million" bad. How long do you think a full rebuilding would take given the poor quality of our farm system? We'd have to suck for several years to get enough high draft picks. If you hit those, maybe you get lucky and it takes four years. If you miss on enough of those it could take a lot longer. When you start losing 90-100 games for multiple years in a row, attendance will drop and payroll will fall.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 05:37 PM) They can't rebuild with the current GM and probably others in this organization. I'm not sure if KW has the patience for a legitimate rebuilding. Hard to really say how he'd do, because he's never done more than a retooling. Regardless, if we are going to go through a 4 - 6 year rebuilding process, then we definitely need new blood throughout the organization. That includes a new GM and manager.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 05:33 PM) I'm starting to believe Viciedo is being shopped around. He's a Boras client. Then shop him a year or two before he reaches free agency if Boras is still his agent and he won't sign a long-term deal. There is absolutely no reason to shop him right now. He's going to make between $1 - 2 million a year in each of the next three seasons and most likely being extremely productive. I don't know what you think you'll get for him that will be of equal or greater value. Prospects like Viciedo just don't get moved very often anymore, because they are just too damn valuable.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) I can't speak for KW, but if I were in his chair...the only thing that would prevent me from doing the full hard sell is a major run of winning. Define hard sell. If you're proposing a full rebuild, then I think that's a huge mistake. I'm down for a couple moves, such as trading Jackson and Quentin, but I don't think we're that far off from competing next year. I think anything beyond a few tweaks is a huge mistake. What team should we be scared of in 2012? Not saying we'll be the favorite, but I don't see any team in the division who's going to be dominant. I still think you try to make one more run at it in 2012 before you even consider rebuilding.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) Really, I don't think that's what KW's thinking at all. I'd guess he's thinking "Rios and Dunn are flat out unmovable. I have to get something out of them, there's no benefit to me to benching them, either this season or long term. This team is borderline ready to be dismantled, and I've got 2 more weeks to the deadline. Let it play out as-is, and if things don't snap back immediately, I'm going to have to be a seller." Whether we're in it or not, we're a stronger team with Viciedo in the starting lineup everyday. Between LF, RF, and DH, he should be able to start 5 - 6 games a week. There is no logical reason whatsoever to not bring him up now that it won't cost us a service year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 07:47 AM) Even if we wanted to move Adam Dunn somewhere in the field...we legitimately have no where to put him. We're still searching for a leadoff replacement for Pierre who will have to be put somewhere, we've got Viciedo ready to break in, and Lillibridge has flat out earned more playing time than he's gotten. All I'm saying is if Dunn is struggling because he can't handle DHing, then you must start thinking outside the box. We can't have a $14 million/year DH that can't hit. If playing the field were to change that, then you have to consider moving him to LF. His defense would be awful, but you could conceivably get more value out of him if moving from DH allowed him to start hitting than what we are getting now. Now, I don't think his problems are related to DHing specifically, but if he continues to struggle into next year, then that becomes a more realistic possibility. And if that there were to happen, he becomes valueless and unmoveable, so you'd have to try something drastic. Let's just hope he has a good second half and this will not be an issue again.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 06:39 AM) Sad thing is, I would LOVE to keep Alonzo as the sox don't have anyone remotely close to him as a 1B prospect or even a prospect in general, but we have that Konerko guy (barring rebuild) and can't even stick him at DH cause of Dunn. (Alonzo can play LF, but is much better defensively as a 1B) Well if you are concerned that Dunn can't handle the mental aspects of DHing, maybe moving Dunn to LF has some logic to it. If that's the case, Alonzo can slide into the DH spot next year. Having said that, I'm not buying that his struggles are relating to DHing though. Regardless, if you move Quentin and Jackson, you take the best offers available and worry about fitting guys in later. Our system is seriously lacking in talent and we can always package some of the prospects/players in these deals to fill other needs.

I find it hilarious that people think we'd get nothing for Jackson. SP is always expensive at the deadline and while Jackson isn't a world-beater, he can eat some innings and potentially have a dominating stretch like he did for us last year. The rental factor hurts, but like everyone has said the type B compensation helps make up for it. Someone will give you something of value for Jackson. We won't be getting a Hudson/Holmberg package, but I could easily see one desperate team giving us a top 100 prospect for him. What other SPs will be available? Which ones are far more valuable than Jackson? Like always, supply will drive up of a mediocre, yet talented pitcher.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 9, 2011 -> 06:48 AM) It seems like it was a nice speech, however, thel Blue Jays still don't draw very well. I will say this, I do agree with his premise. I've been saying for years if the White Sox spent as much time trying to figure out how to kick Minnesota's ass as they do kissing it, they wouldn't be in the quandry they are currently in. They just seem to accept the Twins are better than them, no matter what the standings or the line ups say. And that starts with our coaching staff. Ozzie is constantly praising the Twins and how they "play baseball the right way". I can't stand that s***. Why can't he go to the press and say "I hate those f***ers and we'll do whatever it takes to beat them". Bring some hatred and anger to the table. This team continues to rape and pillage us year after year. I'm so sick of this cowardly lion act where we accept defeat before the series. If Ozzie can't find a way for us to beat the Twins, then KW needs to go find another manager right away, because we'll never win the division going 4-15 against them every year.

If this offer is true, I think you have make the deal. I actually don't think the drop from Quentin to Viciedo will be as big as some people think and I believe Viciedo would offer more consistency, which can help offset some of our offensive struggles when we're in one of our notorious team-wide slumps. More importantly, trading for Beachy allows you to move at least one starter and possibly two. One way or the other, you should be able to get a rental upgrade at LF or 3B for Jackson. I think that upgrade would more than compensate any downgrade in RF, so your offensive overall should improve a little. Swapping Jackson for Beachy would probably be a wash for this year, but offers obvious long-term benefits. The flexibility to trade a second starter is also interesting, although the only two with signicant value (excluding Humber, because god only knows how other GMs view him) are Danks and Floyd. I could see KW getting real creative and moving Floyd for a package that helps us both now and in the future. Having said all this, a Beachy-Quentin deal is risky but could pay serious dividends. I'm definitely willing to roll the dice on this deal if it were actually offered.

Can we please just fire Walker already? What harm could really come from it? I'm sick of watching half of our offense underperform on a daily basis and not attempting to change anything.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 1, 2011 -> 11:41 PM) Juan Pierre's batting average doesn't suggest he should be DFA'ed. What the f*** are talking about? Juan Pierre's .262 BA tells you he is a below average contact hitter and that advanced stats and scouting are necessary to tell the whole story. Even a basic stat like SLG will tell you that is one of the emptiest batting averages in baseball. Add in his .321 OBP and a roughly 50% CS rate and we can quickly conclude that Juan Pierre is one of the worst hitters in baseball. Whether you DFA is if you think he can get significantly better, both offensively and defensively fairly soon, and that comes down to scouting. IMO, he looks like he's lost a step, which can be the beginning of the end for a speed based player. I think most scouts would agree and I seriously doubt any team would trade anything of value for him, be it talent or finacial considerations. Regardless, batting average tells you nothing about Juan Pierre but to investigate further.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 07:42 AM) If the Sox do sell off, you have to imagine Pauly at the top of the list of players teams will want. If the Sox were smart they would try to package PK with one of the bad contracts (Peavy or Rios) to blow a hole in the payroll, ala Florida with the Cabrera/Willis. Um, what? Konerko may be good, but he's not in the same world as Cabrera and is old as f***. No one is going to take on Rios or Peavy's contract just to get Konerko. If you move Konerko, you take the best prospects available. Outside of a huge package, I'd be hesitant to move him though, since I think with a few personal changes and a new manager we can compete in 2012.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) So what happens if Vic isn't that stud immediately at the major league level? Do you blame Walker? I'm a little cautious when it comes to believing a player in AAA is the answer to their problems. You know Viciedo had an .850 OPS in the majors last year right?

I'm honestly convinced that if we called up Viciedo today, he would have an +.900 OPS the rest of the way and would not be prone to massively-long slumps like half of these cowards. He's just a pure hitter and our team desperately needs one of those right now. It's just so frustrating and inexcusable that he's not up right now. KW's job could come down to our finish this season, yet he and Ozzie are trying to get every single extra mileage out of a over-the-hill Juan Pierre. 99.9% of people agree that this simple change could have a huge impact on our offense. How can KW not see this? He can't honestly believe that Pierre has something left in the tank right? You can tell from watching him that Pierre has lost a step. I've supported KW for years, but I'm feeling like it's time for a change. We need a new front office and a new coaching staff. The only guy I would try to keep is Cooper. Go after Dave Martinez and let him pick the rest of his coaching staff. As for GM, Rick Hahn is not an option IMO. I'd like to see Reinsdorf offer Andrew Friedman a boat-load of money to take over our organization. While I will not advocate rebuilding unless all hell breaks loose, I want a GM who's got some actual experience building a quality organization from the ground up. We need to start making changes to our philosophy towards player development. I'm not giving up on this year or next year anytime soon, but need to commit more resources to this area. In particular, something needs to be done about Latin America soon, because we are playing short-handed right now and it's killing us.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 01:52 PM) And this is why you and Balta have, like, 150,000+ posts between the two of you. You guys debate and have something to say about EVERYTHING. If a black writer had written exactly what Phil Rogers said, you're not going to say that dumb "N," unless you're just a racist. You're going to say he's a f***ing moron, idiot, or use even the dreaded "R" word. That part of the article was so ridiculous that you would have to assume there's something not right mentally with the author. And we're not just talking about some random geek from a blog or something. This guy is a writer for a major newspaper. It does raise a lot of questions about Phil Roger's intelligence. I don't know many, if any people that would suggest some sort of Ozzie/Peavy for Ramirez blockbuster deal. It's just absolutely mind-blowing that someone actually gets paid to write this s***. Having said that, I do enjoy reading his fairy tales. He's not a bad writer, just a complete f***ing idiot.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 09:19 AM) lol. Was that you that brought up WAR and how Viciedo would probably add three or four more wins to the Sox over the course of a season? Of course, Ranger's response was the White Sox aren't going to dump Pierre because they have to get some sorta return on their "investment." And that there's still value in a guy that can hit .290. I respect Rongey 90% of the time, but when he pulls the company line bulls*** I can't stand him. He did the same thing when Ozzie lead off Wise, saying we had to give Wise a chance before we could demand a change. Unfortunately, anyone with any baseball smarts and access to minor league stats knew Wise was garbage offensively. He can't honestly believe some the crap that he says, but I guess it's just part of the job.