Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 09:15 AM) For what Lee is doing and getting paid out there, I'd rather have Pierre. Well I'd rather have neither of them. My point was that we used to have power in LF, but Guillen needed to insert a slappy leadoff hitter into the lineup, so we are now forgoing any power whatsoever at a traditional power position.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 07:58 AM) The reason that Viciedo isnt up is that LF is reserved for a slappy leadoff type hitter. Ozzie has wanted that since day one. The only reason Quentin got to start in LF is because Owens got hurt at the end of ST. Or it would of been another slappy, no power, track star. It really is pathetic. We went from Carlos Lee in LF to Pods and Pierre under Guillen. I will never truly understand his fascination with slappy leadoff hitters other than remind him of himself. I honestly think that 90% of people that follow baseball somewhat closely would agree that we would be so much better with Viciedo in LF right now. I just can't fathom having a GM and manager who think otherwise. It's just so blatantly obvious. Also, I'm praying that Viciedo has played some LF in AAA or at least has worked out there in practice. If Pierre were to ever get injured, and I had my fingers crossed last night that Morel was going to take care of that for us, then Viciedo should be ready to go in LF. I'm not sure if that's the case. I'm also not sure they'd call up Viciedo if Pierre went down. I could almost see Guillen starting Lillibridge in LF everyday and bringing up De Aza to be the 4th OF. Honestly, I have no faith in Guillen making the right decision. The fact that KW values Ozzie's opinions on player doesn't help matters either.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 01:20 AM) Has anyone seen Dayan play the outfield yet? Maybe he still needs work. I get the impression the organization has a fear of bringing him up too soon. I think the question should be has Dayan played LF yet? I'm worried that KW/Ozzie will use that as some sort of excuse for not calling him up.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 2, 2011 -> 08:41 AM) Not to mention Tyler Flowers seems to have come back to life. He could still be a major league catcher yet. He remains the key part of that trade. We need to continue infusing the roster with cost-controlled players and we don't have many prospects that could be ready in the next year or two. Viciedo will be in a corner spot next year, which will help a lot. If Flowers could take Castro's role next and then the starting spot in 2013, that would be huge for our long-term success. Having Beckham, Morel, Viciedo, and Flowers in the everyday lineup would give us a nice set of cost-controlled players to supplement some of the bigger contracts we'll still have on the books.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ May 27, 2011 -> 04:05 PM) Yeah me too. It's not that I think Edwin is our worst starter, it's that I think he will be a very effective weapon out of the pen. Throwing 100 mph with that sick movement. He should tear through some hitters for us, and be able to go 2+ IP if needed. I worry about his control issues coming out of the bullpen.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ May 27, 2011 -> 09:25 AM) That team is also taking on salary, so that'll hurt his value a bit, and he's a starting pitcher who should be losing his job. That doesn't exactly scream value, he'll have some but teams don't necessarily want projects when it comes to competing down the stretch. The salary could affect his value depending on the team, but if we were to take back a reliever it would help offset some of it. As for losing his job, it's only happening because we are six deep, it's not like he's being removed because he's been bad. He's just been the worse of the bunch. Also, I don't know how you can call him a project. He's been hit or miss, but he's still got a 4.26 ERA with top of the rotation stuff. Plenty of teams would love to have him, even if he has some issues. Obviously, I have no idea what his value is right now, but I'd least see what's out there for him before I just move him to the bullpen.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ May 27, 2011 -> 09:06 AM) I'd rather keep him and see what he can give us in the bullpen and then get a draft pick for him. You probably won't get much for him in a trade now anyways. Two things. First, starting pitching is always in demand. If I was the GM for a team with a deep bullpen, I'd easily trade an arm and a B prospect for a pitcher like Jackson. You'd be getting a compensation pick in the offseason to replace the prospect and the SP would most likely have a much larger impact than the RP. Second, if you move Jackson to the bullpen, how will it affect his compensation type? Would it be possilbe he falls from being a type B player and we don't get a pick. I don't know how switching from the rotation to the bullpen would affect this.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ May 27, 2011 -> 08:47 AM) Jackson's the one who needs to head to the pen, IMO. He's the one who most frequently stresses our pen anyway by not going deep into games. We also don't have as many compelling reasons to keep Edwin "happy", as he's the one most likely to NOT be here next season. Honestly, I'd rather trade Jackson then move him to the pen. We have no idea how he'd be in the role, plus you'd be diminishing his value rather quickly. I'd try to move him for a reliever and a prospect. Having said that, I'd keep this six man rotation going for another month or so before I do anything.

Not sure if it was posted elsewhere, but the Score is reporting that Adam Dunn will be batting 7th tonight. If true, I will give Ozzie some credit. We can't afford to have a black hole in the middle of our lineup. He needs to keep playing everyday to figure his s*** out, but it will be much better for us if he can so near the bottom of the order. I don't see this team winning the division if Dunn can't get on track in the next month or so. The thought of A.J. batting fifth on a regular basis scares the crap out of me and I'm guessing that's what Ozzie will do.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 26, 2011 -> 06:18 PM) It doesn't even matter if Alexei is terrible at bunting. In no shape or form do you bunt there. Of course not, but we're talking about Ozzie here. There in no logic to half of the things he does. It's almost like he's bored in the dugout and wants see how much he can directly affect. Unfortunately for us, a manager can do much more bad than good in baseball. His decisions are killing us a daily basis.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 26, 2011 -> 01:23 PM) I have no problem thinking that Kenny looked around to see what was out there and what it would cost him. It makes a lot more sense than just assuming he took the very first offer he got for a trade. Actually I am telling you exactly that. There was a school of thought in the scouts that Allen had too many holes in his bat ala Borchard and Fields. It is seemingly turning out to be true, as he hasn't even been able to stick in a place that has a bad 1B situation. Plus you unknowingly justifying this deal when you talk about how prospects usually turnout. If there is a big risk bust, you can't hold their value at what their potential is, because of the very real chance of a bust. Especially in a hitter of the Allen-ilk, the bust risk is higher than normal. You can't fairly make the argument that he has a big bust risk, and he has a big trade value. One effects the other very directly. I've followed Allen closely over the years and he was nothing like a Borchard or Fields when we traded him. When we first drafted him he was raw and had holes in his swing. But he made adjustments each year and continued to improve. By the time we traded him, he had great strike zone judgement, so I wouldn't say he had a huge risk of busting. The question with him was would he hit enough power in the pros to play 1B. That still remains to be seen, but it's pretty ridiculous to right him off based on 200 ABs, especially if he still might be an OF option. He's only 25 years old and been hitting well in AAA for a second year in a row, even if it the PCL. As for not getting to play in Arizona despite their s***ty situation at 1B, what does that prove about him? We trot Juan Pierre out in LF everyday despite having option sitting in AAA. Does that mean Viciedo is a 4A player? No, it just means our manager and/or GM are idiots.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 26, 2011 -> 12:49 PM) You are setting a value for him, while claiming you didn't know what his value was. If the guy is a 4A player at best, how is he worth more than a reliever? That very well could have been the best value for Allen as an asset. Unless you know somewhere that the Sox were offered a better player for him, you can't really assume he was worth more than what we got for him, especially when has not been able to stick at the major league level and prove that wrong. You are assuming we shopped him and took the best offer. Do you really think KW went around to every team and said what will you give me for Brandon Allen? I think it's much more likely that KW wanted Pena and the asking price was Allen. Why is that so hard to believe? Also, I find it humerous you are using his current situation to dictate his value back then. How many prospects live up to their potential? Not many, but that's why they are prospects. You are gambling on their future. Therefore, what Allen has done lately doesn't change what scouts were projecting for him at the time of the trade. That's what his value was based upon. Are you telling me scouts thought he'd be 4A back then? Otherwise, him being a 4A player now doesn't change a thing.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 26, 2011 -> 12:16 PM) I'm still trying to see how you think Allen had all of this value, when there is nothing indicating otherwise. I never said he had all this value. I just said he had more value than most of our minor leaguers at the time. Do you not agree? Like I said, I have no idea what his worth was to other GMs, but I do know what he was worth to us, since he was top five or six prospect in a system that was very top heavy. He was one of our better trade chips and we used that to get an underperforming relief pitcher. I didn't feel that was the best way to use the asset. I would have held on to him until I had a larger, more important need and hoped to use him as a second or third piece. My arguement is simply over the allocation of resources. People get pissed about Teahen's extension because they feel the money could have been used in better way and agree with them. Here, I think Allen could have been used to fill a better need. I honestly believe that Pena was one of KW's guys and he overpaid a little to get him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 26, 2011 -> 10:22 AM) If they were shopping Allen, it was probably because the Sox figured out he wasn't that good, which is being vindicated by the fact he can't even make the AZ Dbacks right now. All though I am curious to hear what Allen deals we turned down instead of Pena. How do you expect to hear that?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 26, 2011 -> 10:22 AM) If they were shopping Allen, it was probably because the Sox figured out he wasn't that good, which is being vindicated by the fact he can't even make the AZ Dbacks right now. All though I am curious to hear what Allen deals we turned down instead of Pena. How do you expect to hear that?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ May 26, 2011 -> 09:28 AM) Like who? What trade offers did KW turn down to get Tony Pena? You have no idea what other teams thought of Allen. Maybe he shopped him around the league and Pena was the best offer he got. A middle reliever under team control that he thought he could turn around. The trade sucks cause Pena is still bad, and they haven't been able to improve him whatsoever, and he's still lingering on the MLB roster. Why would KW be shopping around Allen? What would be the rush to get rid of him? Given the future uncertainty at DH and 1B at the time, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Obviously, I have no idea what you could have gotten for Allen on his own. However, I'm sure you could have made a trade package more attractive by including him in it. That's my problem with the trade. We didn't have a strong farm system at the time and we gave up one of our more valuable prospects for a bad reliever we didn't need. That's why the trade sucked back then. Pena's performance is why the trade still sucks now.

QUOTE (Paint it Black @ May 25, 2011 -> 10:22 PM) Pena: Sox fans really need to stop this weird obsession with Brandon Allen. He's still in AAA. We're a below average team not because we're missing a slow corner position player who won't ever get a shot. You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what Allen becomes, he was one of our better prospects at the time and we traded him for a reliever with a bad track record. That's the issue most of us have. We could have used him in a package for a better player. We got bad value in return for him. Also, having a left-handed power bat around wouldn't have been a bad thing, given the future uncertainty at 1B and DH at the time. It was a dumb trade then and remains a dumb trade today.

QUOTE (Paint it Black @ May 25, 2011 -> 10:17 PM) So wait, power hitters who strike out a lot and don't walk are needed on this team? Are you f***ing serious? Viciedo has 3 less walks than Pierre, but his OBP is .041 higher, so who really gives a f***. As for the strikeouts, Viciedo's SLG is .242 higher, so again who gives a f***. So Viciedo hits more, walks about the same, and slugs significantly higher than Pierre. Despite being a slow "power" hitter, he's hit into less DPs than Pierre. He also doesn't waste outs trying to steal bases, when he can clearly not do so at an effective rate. What's Piere now, 7 of 15? Plain and simple, this team needs less poor offensive players and more good hitters. Pierre is a terrible offensive player who brings nothing to the table whatsoever, while Viciedo is a very dangerous hitter who can hit for average and power. The decision should be easy. Next time you throw crap about one of our prospects, make sure you do the research first.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ May 25, 2011 -> 07:32 PM) It's too bad Ozzie is gonna take the blame for all the long swings. If we could only be so fortunate.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 24, 2011 -> 04:53 PM) That's probably the ONE great move the Angels have made in the last 2-3 years, picking up Haren when he was hurt and not 100%. For most of this season, he's looked like a legit top-of-the-rotation guy again. Scott Kazmir, not so much. Yeah, I completely agree. If you can pick up a potential ace on the cheap, I think you have to do it. Haren has been a great example of that. Hopefully Peavy can stay healthy the rest of the way and can regain his previous form.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 24, 2011 -> 04:06 PM) Peavy's contract bugs me infinitely more than Rios'. See, I disagree with that. I supported both moves at the time, but I was a much bigger fan of the Peavy pickup. The value of an ace is significant in the post-season. Getting a guy with ace potential is practically impossible, unless you have a Dan Haren package of prospects available or have $150 million to spend in free agency. So I was glad KW rolled the dice on Peavy, even if there was a reasonable chance it wouldn't work. I'll happily take such a risk if it improves my chance of winning a World Series. A good CF on the otherhand is easier to attain, especially if you're willing to spend $55 million. I was still willing to gamble on Rios due to his immense potential, but I had much more worries about him due to his past struggles.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 24, 2011 -> 11:14 AM) I'm getting tired of caring about underachievement, to be honest. I'm craving a rebuild more and more with each passing day. Wow, I can't even imagine the b****ing on this website if we were to rebuild. We would be terrible for years to come with no guarantee of this amazing future everyone associates with rebuilding. We're better off going for the division and hoping to maintain our large payroll. That's really the only way to compensate for our bad minor league system and have a chance of competing. I'm not prepared to be the Pittsburgh Pirates for the next seven years. Remember, we won't go over slot, don't have much of a presence in Latin America, and don't have enough tradable assets to replenish our system. We'd have to suck Pirates style to get the young talent to needed to successfully complete a rebuild.

The problem with Pierre is two-fold. First, even if you look at his history, his offensive contributions aren't that good, unless you love SB's. He has no power and doesn't walk that much. Add in the fact that we have a potential difference maker waiting in AAA, and it appears we are forgoing production because we need the prototypical leadoff hitter. So even using his historical numbers, we're not optimizing our offense by playing Pierre everday. Second, and more importantly, you can't just look at historical numbers. You have to scout the player and see where he is physically and mechanically to project for the future. That's where the real problem comes into play. Pierre looks like he has lost a step and his SB numbers support that. If that's the case, and it's not due to injury, then waiting for him to perform at prior levels is stupid. He just wouldn't be the same player. No matter how many singles Pierre hits in a week won't change these points. IMO, Viciedo is the better option right now and should be playing. Unfortunately, philosophical and/or financial reasons are preventing what is an obvious decision to maximize production.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 21, 2011 -> 05:24 PM) Instead of saying Dunn is a worthless piece of s***, they blame Ozzie for batting him third. Guess what? He's on the roster and a slugger with a history of doing well. You bat him third or fourth. He has to produce. But he sucks, so blame Ozzie for batting him third. In my world that's dumb. You are a walking contradiction. I have seen at least three occasions where you've said Dunn is garbage and should be batting 8th. Now you are saying that Guillen has to bat him third? Which one is it? Are you dumb or is Ozzie an idiot? You can't have it both ways.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 21, 2011 -> 05:20 PM) I'd like the Lilly lovers to at least admit one thing. Do you feel stupid for throwing a tantrum when the Sox kept Lilly over Lastings Millidge? I've blasted Lillibridge in the past like many on here, but never wanted Lastings Millidge over Lilly. Do you feel stupid for slobbing on Jenks' knob last season when he was pure garbage?