Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 03:38 PM) Special K, not many teams have 5 good starters. It looked early on that Richard was going to be the surprise of the season. And he still might be. I think Scenario mentioned sending him back to AAA to get his stuff worked out. Makes a ton of sense to me. I still think he has a chance to be an above-average starter in the AL. He just needs to figure some s*** out and come back up with a fresh mind. It's way too early to give up on him long-term at least.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 03:45 PM) I wouldn't move Poreda. Poreda + Thornton from the left side Jenks as the closer Hopefully get good value out of Richard, Dotel, Linebrink Pena from the right side Call up a reliever Trade for a lesser veteran arm who doesn't cost much but can pitch in the 7th inning (Danys Baez maybe?) Carrasco stays in LR Yes our pen would be weaker than it is right now, but we're not getting anything for Dotel unless we offer arb, which we won't do because he'll accept. And now might be the best time to try and clear out Linebrink's contract. And Richard we don't have to deal, but I take offers because I'm happy with Thornton + Poreda as the lefties. They are our best options. No offense, but this is completely absurd. You expect KW to move his two most experienced relievers in the middle of the playoff chase? And to make it even more unlikely, Linebrink has a NTC. I honestly don't see him wanting to leave. Plus you want him to trade Richard and acquire another reliever? When is the last time a GM has broken up a great bullpen by making 6 roster moves in July?? Not going to happen. Who are you going to bring up from the minors? I know Carlos Torres has great stats, but I've never heard one report on him having above average or major league stuff. I don't see any other option that even looks remotely interesting. Why change something that is working? If we do make the playoffs, having a deep and strong bullpen could be a huge difference maker.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 03:43 PM) If we're dealing Jenks for Hermida i'd like to add Sinkbeil, Jai Miller and maybe someone else like a Van den Hurk to the package Where is this Jenks talk coming from? KW is not going to deal him this season unless we are like 6 games out at the deadline. I can see him moving him in the off-season, but definitely not now. The fan base would see it as conceding the season, which is exactly what it would be. I don't even want to imagine what attendance would be like in August and September if KW gave up when we have a great shot at the division.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 10, 2009 -> 03:11 PM) Supposedly the Marlins were willing to give up Hermida for Capps, and this writer thinks they should be willing to give up Cody Ross, Hermida, or Uggla for a respectable closer, which shows how much they need one. We don't need all these relievers, and since Dotel is a FA after the year and probably won't get arb from us which means we get zero draft picks, we should shop him to teams like the Marlins who really need an arm at the back of the pen. Also, I like Poreda and Thornton as lefties in the pen, so I'd shop Richard too. And it's time to shop Linebrink since we're at it. Maybe we can find a contender to give us a prospect plus take over the rest of his contract out of desperation. I'm not talking about becoming a seller either, just talking about getting some value out of some guys while we can. I think we do need all these relievers. We now have four solid options from the right side not including Jenks. Carrasco is our long reliever and his durability is extremely valuable with Richard (and possibly Poreda soon) in the rotation. We shoud NOT move him from that role with the success he's been having (I know he's sucked of late but whatever). Plus he can serve as our sixth starters in double-headers if need be. Therefore, we're talking about three right-handed guys that can be setup men. Since there is no guarantee that Linebrink will remain healthy and/or effective the whole season, I think it's extremely important to keep both Pena and Dotel. Additionally, I don't trust any of minor leaguers to come up right now and immedietely produce. As for shopping Richard, I think that would be a huge mistake. What are you even going to get for him at this point? If you move Poreda into the rotation, you'll eventually need Richard to replace him in the bullpen. Unless we are moving him as a piece in a larger trade, then I think you're best off holding on to him for now. Hermida is an interesting name, but you got to start wondering if he will ever put it together. If the Sox weren't competing right now, I'd take a flier on him in a heartbeat and shut down Quentin for the rest of the season. Right now, I'd pass on trading for him unless you can get him cheaply using minor league talent.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 09:38 PM) He's like a glorified Ryan Sweeney right now, IMO. I don't see why the Pirates would want another "potential filled OF" who hasn't shown he can hit for power, but they've done a lot of stupid things this year, IMO. I guess their plan is throw s*** at the wall and see what sticks. Did someone sign onto your account and write this??? I thought you loved Ryan Sweeney

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 02:51 PM) Alexie, Poreda and Flowers and a couple of single a prospects for Halladay and Rolen and I say the Blue Jays pull the trigger. Yeah, I'm sure they'd pull the trigger. Please tell me you don't want to trade Alexie in such a package?? That would be a horrible trade.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jul 9, 2009 -> 12:01 PM) IMO, the sox could be more likely to trade for Rios, or Vernon Wells independent of Halladay. Yet even that would be remote. There is no chance the Sox trade for Vernon Wells. He might have the worst contract in MLB right now. 10:$21M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M This contract would cripple many small-market franchises. In fact, not one team in baseball would take that contract off their hands without significant money coming back. In this economical environment, he’d probably get somewhere between $7 and $10 million a season for 2 to 3 years. The Blue Jays would have to give the acquiring team at least $30 million (and probably more) for even the Yankees to take him. Even then, the Blue Jays would get nothing in return unless they ate a much higher portion of the contract. As for Rios, he signed his contract extension right after his big offensive season. $12 million a year isn’t terrible, but definitely not worth it in this market. IMO, the Sox won’t want to trade any talent for him, when they could possibly sign Matt Holliday as free agent for the same financial commitment.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 04:52 PM) Brandon Allen was #99 0n Baseball Prospectus' Top 100. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8506 John Sickels had him in his top 100 picture, he also had him ranked 4th amongst our prospects http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/12/22/...te-sox-top-20-p http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/9/17/6...rospect-brandon Prospect Rankings* 2009 - #4 ranked for CHW http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...009/267205.html *According to Baseball America Brandon Allen was more then relevant to any prospect buff. Be more constructive with your feedback, please. Thank you for pointing these rankings out. It's clear that he’s a respected prospect in the minor league baseball community (and not just Soxtalk). The guy is a young, left-handed hitter with outstanding physical tools. Last season his power increased, even though he played in a notorious pitchers park, and his plate discipline greatly improved. The kid looked like he might have taken a huge step forward. He appeared to have the ceiling of a slightly, above average first baseman. There is a ton of value in a player of that caliber. Yes, he has been somewhat of a disappointment this year (from a power perspective), but he is still only 23 years old. His plate discipline at AA was actually better this season and shouldn’t be ignored. He may never put it all together, but it’s still way too early to write him off. And to be honest, I don't recall anyone on this board saying Brandon Allen was the next Ryan Howard. I like some people really liked his long-term potential and improvement at the plate last season. Perhaps he’s slightly overrated, but not to the degree this website is claiming. As for the trade, I have no problem acquiring Pena and don’t hate using Allen to get him. I don’t like losing a potential left-handed power bat, but I trust that Kenny has another plan in mind to eventually replace Thome’s bat. One thing I don’t agree with is that we have a glut of first basemen waiting in the wings. We need Flowers to stay at catcher for obvious reasons. I love Dayan’s raw talent, but it’s way too early to pencil him in anywhere, especially first base. Phegley was just drafted, but for some reason everyone here has him on their three year board. Hell, the guy might never make out of A ball, let’s wait a while longer before judging him. Last, Fields is NOT a solution at first base. The guy couldn’t stick at third, why would we count on him at an even more offensive-minded position. If Paulie can keep this up, then this whole point is moot. I’ll be happy to keep him around for another couple of seasons. I still think the Sox should target a slugger (left-handed preferably) in the early rounds of next year’s draft.

This thread is ridiculous. Here is what Kenny said: "We expected a little more fan support than we have gotten. It's a reflection of the economy. And I don't know if we've played consistent enough or been exciting enough for people to get behind us yet." So first he states attendance is down because of the economy, which is a true statement. Then he points out that the team has had it's share of struggles and implies that less fans have showed up for that reason, which is also true. Where does he does he call Sox fans cheap? I don't see the insult. Oh yeah and he said this: "We had been a little aggressive in our projections initially, and we might have to take a lot closer look at it because the Dodgers series certainly was an eye-opener for us." Now he admits they overestimated demand and/or priced tickets too highly. He admits the Dodgers series was an "eye-opener" for his staff, which it should have been. I'm not going to argue that raising ticket prices 11% and cutting payroll by $20 million makes a lot of sense. They obviously had their reasons for it, whether wrong or right. However, no one should fault Kenny or the White Sox for admitting they can't spend big dollars on a trade when revenues from attendance have been so low. The Sox are probably already several million in the red. It's unfair and borderline crazy to expect they to go even further in that direction without seeing some sort increase in fan support first.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 02:21 PM) Trading any of our young guys away, when we are on the verge of reloading our rosters is short sighted and will cost us in the long run. This is a flawed team, and the idea of mortgaging the future for slight chance is not worth it. If we get into the playoffs we are already okay from a pitching standpoint. Our pitching is far from the problem this year. We are near the top in the AL in pitching, and our top 4 pretty much match up with anyone in a series. AJ is older Thome is old Dye is older and needs to be a DH soon. Konerko is older. This needs to be replaced in the short term, not the long term. I am not saying that all of our prospects are going to pan out, but they sure as hell can get you pieces for the long term. In this of all economies, young cheap talent is worth as much as gold. We only have to look back a few years on how emptying the system can screw us on a future deal. We could have Miguel Cabrera here right now if we didnt have a weak system at the time. Doc is a great pitcher, but its not our time yet for these types of deals. This is the best post I've seen in this entire thread, although Balta has had some very good ones as well. For most of this season, the vast majority of posters have admitted our offensive core is aging. As southsideirish71 identified, there are four key contributors who are getting up there in age. Yes, these guys are still valuable to our team, but the question is for how long? We can’t really depend on these guys for more than one or two more years (perhaps 3 for Dye if moved to DH). We finally have several high-upside position playing prospects in our system that could possibly replace these guys over the next few seasons. Flowers, Danks, Allen & Viciedo are legitimate talents who have a solid chance at sticking in the pros. If they do, they allow cost certainty that’s needed to resign other core players (Quentin, Danks, Bobby) and allow us to fill holes through free agency. Some of these guys may not make it, but to automatically assume none of these guys will be impact players in crazy. I don’t care how many of our past prospects have flopped, we have a new development regime in place and this group of prospects has so much more talent. For those of you so willing to trade the farm for a short-term fix, how do you expect to replace these veterans in the next year or two? The Sox will have some money to fill a hole here or there, but we can’t replace four starting position players. Furthermore, we don’t exactly have another wave of position-playing prospects coming behind this one. It could be years before we can fill some of these holes internally if we trade all our current prospects away. It just blows my mind how much “sell sell sell” talk was going on this website just two weeks. A seven game winning streak later, now everyone wants to forfeit a possibly bright future for a guy under control for a year and a half. Please don’t mention the type a compensation he will bring either. Good prospects in the upper levels in the minors are worth so much more, because they’ve already gotten this far while your two new draft picks may not. If Halladay could be had for lets say Poreda, Richard, Allen and some A ball prospect I’d accept it in a heartbeat. The problem is he will cost lots of near MLB-ready talent which is just not worth when we’re already four strong in our rotation.

If we are more than five games out by mid-July, then I'd consider moving some guys who are free agents after the season (Dye, Dotel, Contreras). In this case, I'd hope that KW/JR would be willing to pay a good chunk of their salaries in order to maximize the returns of these players. I have serious doubts JR would sign off on this, but it's not completely out of the realm of possibility (depending on # of players traded). However, I really think this team will be within five games by mid-July and KW will most likely keep what they got. The only way the Sox should buy is if it's for a legitimate #1 or #2 starter who's is under control for 3 - 4 more seasons. If such a player was available and could be had for Poreda and some combination of 2nd tier prospects (Shelby, Omogrosso, Gilmore, D. Carter, etc.), then I would bite on that deal immedietely (extremely unlikely though). Otherwise, I save my surplus of young talent to help address future needs a year or two from now. We are finally in a position to have nice young core to build around, similar to the Indians in the 90's. All the MLB guys below are under our control for at least 3 more seasons. All the prospects I included should be ready in the next season or two and have a solid chance at sticking in the majors. 1B Brandon Allen 2B Gordan Beckham SS Alexei Ramirez 3B Dayan Viciedo CF Jordan Danks RF Carlos Quentin C Tyler Flowers #1 John Danks #2 Gavin Floyd #3 Aaron Poreda #4 Dan Hudson #5 Clayton Richard Obviously, there is a good chance some of these youngsters will bust. Once you've identified who won't make it, then you can trade some of your young talent or use some of your financial flexibility to fill holes. IMO, the Sox are going to have a great window from 2011 - 2013 to do something special. All moves made in the next year and a half should have this window of opportunity in mind. I'm not saying ignore possible success this year or next, but rather don't throw away a great looking future for a quick fix. If I was KW, I would try and grab a corner outfielder next offseason if possible. With all the money we have coming off the books, I think we have a good shot at Matt Holliday. He's the ideal solution in LF because he's somewhat young and would provide a nice bat in the middle of our lineup. Unless the Yankees offer a ridiculous contract, I think Sox would have a great chance (if interested). I'm not as worried about the Boras factor either, not with the current economy and the way he's been playing in Oakland so far. The bullpen should also be on KW's priority list this offseason. We could lose three big arms after the 2011 season (Jenks, Thornton, Linebrink). Acquiring or developing some young relievers will be critical in the next season and a half.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 18, 2009 -> 05:07 PM) You know why Errors are called Errors cause they are a part of the f***ing game. My god you people are ridiculous. They didn't execute, cased closed. How about we blame Pujols for games the Cards lose because he has an 0fer or doesn't deliver in a key situation. Its baseball, you win some you lose some and if you look at every darn microcosm well than quite frankly every player in baseball sucks cause they fail more than they succeed. Seriously, some of you people clearly haven't played sports at a remotely high level or you'd understand. When I played in competitive team sports we didn't go f*** we lost cause of that schmoe. Now there were games where I'd blame myself but my teammates weren't pointing at me. No, if you made an error, you made an error, someone else had to pick it up for you and in this case they (Scott) didn't. I understand your point of view, players have bad games and make bad plays. To blame any one single player for a tough loss is not fair. Having said that, this game is all on Ozzie. A big part of a manager's job is to give his players the best chances to succeed and too often Ozzie doesn't do that. Pitching Linebrink in the 8th was a mistake from the get-go. He had just pitched yesterday, while Thornton hadn't pitched in several days. One of these guys has been struggling as of late, while the other has looked good for most of the season. There is no reason not to pitch Thornton in this situation. I know the Cubs/Sox games get over-hyped, but a 4 game winning streak would have given us a lot of momentum going into Cincinnati. Once again, Ozzie plays the automatic matchup/role card and costs us a game. I just have never seen a manager throw guys out there when they clearly don't have their stuff more than Guillen.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 16, 2009 -> 11:43 AM) Does it really matter what garbage player they stick out there? Thats what all of our CF options in the organization are at this time. Wise and Anderson both have flashes of being an average player, but basically they are both fourth OF's at best. So we should get rid of Wise so we can bring Lillibridge back up? There is no better than option than Wise right now and KW has had a lot of struggles with acquiring a legit CF. Danks2 is probably the best option in the organization but is a year from being ready. So were stuck in holding pattern, since we are in rebuilding mode there is no sense in wasting prospects to go out and acquire someone who will just be blocking a player like DanksII or Shelby next season. Wise is a placeholder along with Anderson until better internal options are ready. No runs. No RBI's. No extra-base hits. 1 walk. A .133 average. You can't honestly say there aren't better options. I'm certain that David Cook (who is not even a real prospect) could out-produce those numbers in 10 at-bats. That's how bad Dwayne Wise is relative to all other CF's in baseball.

QUOTE (wilmot825 @ Jun 15, 2009 -> 04:51 PM) So I was reading the paper today and I saw Barry Zito was pitching tonight against John Lackey, and I had an idea. What about Kenny trading the Giants for Zito? Now I know people are going to say that it won't happen because of his large contract. As we have seen in previous trades (Griffey for one), KW finds a way for the trading party to pick up part of the contract. If that were to happen, think about Zito working with Don Cooper over the rest of this season and spring training. Cooper fixed a mess of a pitcher who has turned into the most effective middle-reliever in all of baseball, Matt Thornton. Not too mention Bobby Jenks, turning Gavin Floyd into the pitcher he was drafted so high to be, reviving Dotel's career, and also pulling everything he could out of that '05 pen with Cotts and Cliff. I would see the SF Giants being so happy to hear that another club is interested in the train-wreck Barry Zito. Although I never thought about who the Sox would have to deal to SF, I think they would be willing to deal him for less than one may think. If Zito came to the Southside and became the pitcher he once was in Oakland, that could post the Sox over the top. However this could be just a huge failure and be a headache for Sox fans as it is for Giants fans. What do you think? No way in hell the Sox ever trade for Zito unless he has one year remaining on his contract and we swap one of our bad contracts for him.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 01:39 PM) I personally think Zambrano has a higher upside the next few years than Peavy. He was a Sox fan growing up because of Ozzie. Maybe Ozzie being his manager plus Zambozo being new to the team, adjusts his attitude a bit. Frankly, I couldn't believe the Sox would have been able to get Peavy for that package and the money is virtually the same. I would make this trade in a heartbeat if I were KW. As for Hendry, right now he may think Peavy is better than Zambrano, and the Padres we know are in. There definitely is a huge risk, owing a guy like Zambrano that kind of money is risky, but it also could pay off huge. If I'm KW and it was possible, I definitely would do it. No way you trade that same package for Zambrano. While I agree that attitude would be less of an issue here, he's simply not the same caliber of pitcher as Peavy. More importantly, he's owed $18 million/yr for the next three seasons and has been on the DL a bunch of times the past couple of years (IIRC).

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 01:12 PM) Viciedo is a lock to be in the top 100. He's young and getting better and better with more experience and I expect to see a significant increase in power the 2nd half of the season. Viciedo will be a White Sox next year and I'd rank him as the #2 prospect behind Jordan Danks with Poreda sliding in at 3 just ahead of Tyler Flowers. The main reason is the pure upside of Danks/Viciedo. Viciedo has a shot to be a Miguel Cabrera type. Not saying he will, but he has massive power potential and an ability to hit for a very high average. I f***ing love his swing. I don't know if he'll learn to draw the walks or not, but if he develops that he has the ability to be a HIGH HIGH HIGH impact player and I expect him to rank in the top 25 to 30 prospect by the time this season is done. If Jordan Danks keeps playing like he's playing, he'll be in the top 25 to 30 as well at seasons end. Cfers with his tools, mixed with the minor league prodution, aren't a common occurance. Poreda I have where he his because of that nice sinking fastball but I also love Flowers. I'd say all four guys, if they play well, have a shot at being top 50 guys. I don't know if anyone else in the system has a shot at getting into the top 100 though. Hudson/Carter have a chance if they pitch really strong at higher levels. I wouldn't anticipate any of our top picks making the list unless we draft Scheppers or something or whomever we draft signs immediately and just puts up ridiculous numbers. So you don't think Brandon Allen has a chance at cracking the Top 100? It's a close call in my book whether Baseball America includes him. Personally, I think he should make it, but the lack of power this season will definitely hurt his case. It's too bad, because his contact and walk rates are getting better. I think an increase in homeruns and doubles will happen in the second half. The only other guy I see having a shot is Hudson, but his control and ground-ball/fly-out ratio have gotten a lot worse since his promotion to high A. I think he'll rebound, but he'll need to be down-right dominant in the 2nd half if he wants to move back into consideration.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jun 4, 2009 -> 04:26 PM) Nate McLouth, the gold glove winning CF for the Pirates, just ended up in Atlanta for 3 minor league prospects, one rated #4, another #7, and a third unrated. Further, McLouth is 27 and signed for 3 more seasons. He's got speed, some pop, and enough of an eye to have an OBP in the mid-.300s. I don't follow the NL that much, but am I wrong in thinking this guy could have been the answer we've been seeking in CF since Aaron Rowand rode out of town? Plus he's a lefty with some power, and by next year when Thome is gone, the Sox will have no one who can fill that job. What am I missing? Couldn't we have bettered Atlanta's deal and filled a glaring hole in our lineup and roster? Yeah, we easily could have bettered Atlanta’s deal, but McLouth is simply not worth the cost. We have a very good CF and leadoff prospect in Jordan Danks, who is probably a 1 - 1 ½ years away. Once Danks is ready, we’d have to move McLouth to a corner spot, where his production would only be league average at best. No reason to waste valuable assets on a short-term upgrade in CF. Also, it’s pretty clear that Kenny’s focus right now is a front-line starter who can help this year and in the future. We shouldn’t trade any of the young players we have in AA unless it’s for a right-handed, stud pitcher who’s locked up for several seasons. If we need do an upgrade at CF or 2B, we should be able to find some cheap short-term options once we get closer to the trading deadline just because of the economy.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jun 4, 2009 -> 12:07 PM) I'm with you Rock. I should have qualified it by saying "until JorDanks arrives". The lineup I'd like to see post ASB: 1. Beckham 3B 2. Getz (a lot to prove still, granted, but a good handler of the bat, and you just KNOW Ozzie will love bunting GB over to 3rd after those leadoff doubles, to get that 1-0 lead. Needs to get steady AB's soon, so we know what we have, or don't have) 3. Q 4. JD 5. Thome 6. Paulie 7. Missile 8. AJP 9. BA (His potentially good OBP will help the lineup turnover, while his terrible situational hitting will do the least damage here) I've ALMOST given up on Fields, but I can see him as backing up 3B and 1B, as well as occasional DH against lefties - though Thome's been hitting LHP better of late. I think he's trade fodder, not that anything good will be sent our way for him. His chances of becoming a valuable piece in a trade are nearly gone. I don’t like moving Alexei out of the 2-hole. He’s been extremely productive there, especially with his speed and improved walk-rate this season. Once Quentin comes back, I think you got to keep riding Pods in the leadoff spot (and unfortunately in CF) until he gets injured or unproductive. At that point, you hope that Beckham or Getz has shown enough to hit one of them at leadoff and put BA in CF. As for Q himself, I’d hit him 6th until he gets his s*** together and then move him back to 3rd in the lineup. I really like the idea of the high-OBP of a healthy Quentin (if even possible this season) and Thome in front of Dye, Konerko and AJ.

My Top 10 prospects excluding Beckham: 1. Aaron Poreda 2. Jordan Danks 3. Dayan Viciedo 4. Brandon Allen 5. Tyler Flowers 6. Dan Hudson 7. Charlie Leesman 8. Dexter Carter 9. John Shelby 10. Jon Gilmore