Chicago White Sox

This thread is ridiculous. Here is what Kenny said: "We expected a little more fan support than we have gotten. It's a reflection of the economy. And I don't know if we've played consistent enough or been exciting enough for people to get behind us yet." So first he states attendance is down because of the economy, which is a true statement. Then he points out that the team has had it's share of struggles and implies that less fans have showed up for that reason, which is also true. Where does he does he call Sox fans cheap? I don't see the insult. Oh yeah and he said this: "We had been a little aggressive in our projections initially, and we might have to take a lot closer look at it because the Dodgers series certainly was an eye-opener for us." Now he admits they overestimated demand and/or priced tickets too highly. He admits the Dodgers series was an "eye-opener" for his staff, which it should have been. I'm not going to argue that raising ticket prices 11% and cutting payroll by $20 million makes a lot of sense. They obviously had their reasons for it, whether wrong or right. However, no one should fault Kenny or the White Sox for admitting they can't spend big dollars on a trade when revenues from attendance have been so low. The Sox are probably already several million in the red. It's unfair and borderline crazy to expect they to go even further in that direction without seeing some sort increase in fan support first.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jul 7, 2009 -> 02:21 PM) Trading any of our young guys away, when we are on the verge of reloading our rosters is short sighted and will cost us in the long run. This is a flawed team, and the idea of mortgaging the future for slight chance is not worth it. If we get into the playoffs we are already okay from a pitching standpoint. Our pitching is far from the problem this year. We are near the top in the AL in pitching, and our top 4 pretty much match up with anyone in a series. AJ is older Thome is old Dye is older and needs to be a DH soon. Konerko is older. This needs to be replaced in the short term, not the long term. I am not saying that all of our prospects are going to pan out, but they sure as hell can get you pieces for the long term. In this of all economies, young cheap talent is worth as much as gold. We only have to look back a few years on how emptying the system can screw us on a future deal. We could have Miguel Cabrera here right now if we didnt have a weak system at the time. Doc is a great pitcher, but its not our time yet for these types of deals. This is the best post I've seen in this entire thread, although Balta has had some very good ones as well. For most of this season, the vast majority of posters have admitted our offensive core is aging. As southsideirish71 identified, there are four key contributors who are getting up there in age. Yes, these guys are still valuable to our team, but the question is for how long? We can’t really depend on these guys for more than one or two more years (perhaps 3 for Dye if moved to DH). We finally have several high-upside position playing prospects in our system that could possibly replace these guys over the next few seasons. Flowers, Danks, Allen & Viciedo are legitimate talents who have a solid chance at sticking in the pros. If they do, they allow cost certainty that’s needed to resign other core players (Quentin, Danks, Bobby) and allow us to fill holes through free agency. Some of these guys may not make it, but to automatically assume none of these guys will be impact players in crazy. I don’t care how many of our past prospects have flopped, we have a new development regime in place and this group of prospects has so much more talent. For those of you so willing to trade the farm for a short-term fix, how do you expect to replace these veterans in the next year or two? The Sox will have some money to fill a hole here or there, but we can’t replace four starting position players. Furthermore, we don’t exactly have another wave of position-playing prospects coming behind this one. It could be years before we can fill some of these holes internally if we trade all our current prospects away. It just blows my mind how much “sell sell sell” talk was going on this website just two weeks. A seven game winning streak later, now everyone wants to forfeit a possibly bright future for a guy under control for a year and a half. Please don’t mention the type a compensation he will bring either. Good prospects in the upper levels in the minors are worth so much more, because they’ve already gotten this far while your two new draft picks may not. If Halladay could be had for lets say Poreda, Richard, Allen and some A ball prospect I’d accept it in a heartbeat. The problem is he will cost lots of near MLB-ready talent which is just not worth when we’re already four strong in our rotation.

If we are more than five games out by mid-July, then I'd consider moving some guys who are free agents after the season (Dye, Dotel, Contreras). In this case, I'd hope that KW/JR would be willing to pay a good chunk of their salaries in order to maximize the returns of these players. I have serious doubts JR would sign off on this, but it's not completely out of the realm of possibility (depending on # of players traded). However, I really think this team will be within five games by mid-July and KW will most likely keep what they got. The only way the Sox should buy is if it's for a legitimate #1 or #2 starter who's is under control for 3 - 4 more seasons. If such a player was available and could be had for Poreda and some combination of 2nd tier prospects (Shelby, Omogrosso, Gilmore, D. Carter, etc.), then I would bite on that deal immedietely (extremely unlikely though). Otherwise, I save my surplus of young talent to help address future needs a year or two from now. We are finally in a position to have nice young core to build around, similar to the Indians in the 90's. All the MLB guys below are under our control for at least 3 more seasons. All the prospects I included should be ready in the next season or two and have a solid chance at sticking in the majors. 1B Brandon Allen 2B Gordan Beckham SS Alexei Ramirez 3B Dayan Viciedo CF Jordan Danks RF Carlos Quentin C Tyler Flowers #1 John Danks #2 Gavin Floyd #3 Aaron Poreda #4 Dan Hudson #5 Clayton Richard Obviously, there is a good chance some of these youngsters will bust. Once you've identified who won't make it, then you can trade some of your young talent or use some of your financial flexibility to fill holes. IMO, the Sox are going to have a great window from 2011 - 2013 to do something special. All moves made in the next year and a half should have this window of opportunity in mind. I'm not saying ignore possible success this year or next, but rather don't throw away a great looking future for a quick fix. If I was KW, I would try and grab a corner outfielder next offseason if possible. With all the money we have coming off the books, I think we have a good shot at Matt Holliday. He's the ideal solution in LF because he's somewhat young and would provide a nice bat in the middle of our lineup. Unless the Yankees offer a ridiculous contract, I think Sox would have a great chance (if interested). I'm not as worried about the Boras factor either, not with the current economy and the way he's been playing in Oakland so far. The bullpen should also be on KW's priority list this offseason. We could lose three big arms after the 2011 season (Jenks, Thornton, Linebrink). Acquiring or developing some young relievers will be critical in the next season and a half.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 18, 2009 -> 05:07 PM) You know why Errors are called Errors cause they are a part of the f***ing game. My god you people are ridiculous. They didn't execute, cased closed. How about we blame Pujols for games the Cards lose because he has an 0fer or doesn't deliver in a key situation. Its baseball, you win some you lose some and if you look at every darn microcosm well than quite frankly every player in baseball sucks cause they fail more than they succeed. Seriously, some of you people clearly haven't played sports at a remotely high level or you'd understand. When I played in competitive team sports we didn't go f*** we lost cause of that schmoe. Now there were games where I'd blame myself but my teammates weren't pointing at me. No, if you made an error, you made an error, someone else had to pick it up for you and in this case they (Scott) didn't. I understand your point of view, players have bad games and make bad plays. To blame any one single player for a tough loss is not fair. Having said that, this game is all on Ozzie. A big part of a manager's job is to give his players the best chances to succeed and too often Ozzie doesn't do that. Pitching Linebrink in the 8th was a mistake from the get-go. He had just pitched yesterday, while Thornton hadn't pitched in several days. One of these guys has been struggling as of late, while the other has looked good for most of the season. There is no reason not to pitch Thornton in this situation. I know the Cubs/Sox games get over-hyped, but a 4 game winning streak would have given us a lot of momentum going into Cincinnati. Once again, Ozzie plays the automatic matchup/role card and costs us a game. I just have never seen a manager throw guys out there when they clearly don't have their stuff more than Guillen.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 16, 2009 -> 11:43 AM) Does it really matter what garbage player they stick out there? Thats what all of our CF options in the organization are at this time. Wise and Anderson both have flashes of being an average player, but basically they are both fourth OF's at best. So we should get rid of Wise so we can bring Lillibridge back up? There is no better than option than Wise right now and KW has had a lot of struggles with acquiring a legit CF. Danks2 is probably the best option in the organization but is a year from being ready. So were stuck in holding pattern, since we are in rebuilding mode there is no sense in wasting prospects to go out and acquire someone who will just be blocking a player like DanksII or Shelby next season. Wise is a placeholder along with Anderson until better internal options are ready. No runs. No RBI's. No extra-base hits. 1 walk. A .133 average. You can't honestly say there aren't better options. I'm certain that David Cook (who is not even a real prospect) could out-produce those numbers in 10 at-bats. That's how bad Dwayne Wise is relative to all other CF's in baseball.

QUOTE (wilmot825 @ Jun 15, 2009 -> 04:51 PM) So I was reading the paper today and I saw Barry Zito was pitching tonight against John Lackey, and I had an idea. What about Kenny trading the Giants for Zito? Now I know people are going to say that it won't happen because of his large contract. As we have seen in previous trades (Griffey for one), KW finds a way for the trading party to pick up part of the contract. If that were to happen, think about Zito working with Don Cooper over the rest of this season and spring training. Cooper fixed a mess of a pitcher who has turned into the most effective middle-reliever in all of baseball, Matt Thornton. Not too mention Bobby Jenks, turning Gavin Floyd into the pitcher he was drafted so high to be, reviving Dotel's career, and also pulling everything he could out of that '05 pen with Cotts and Cliff. I would see the SF Giants being so happy to hear that another club is interested in the train-wreck Barry Zito. Although I never thought about who the Sox would have to deal to SF, I think they would be willing to deal him for less than one may think. If Zito came to the Southside and became the pitcher he once was in Oakland, that could post the Sox over the top. However this could be just a huge failure and be a headache for Sox fans as it is for Giants fans. What do you think? No way in hell the Sox ever trade for Zito unless he has one year remaining on his contract and we swap one of our bad contracts for him.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 01:39 PM) I personally think Zambrano has a higher upside the next few years than Peavy. He was a Sox fan growing up because of Ozzie. Maybe Ozzie being his manager plus Zambozo being new to the team, adjusts his attitude a bit. Frankly, I couldn't believe the Sox would have been able to get Peavy for that package and the money is virtually the same. I would make this trade in a heartbeat if I were KW. As for Hendry, right now he may think Peavy is better than Zambrano, and the Padres we know are in. There definitely is a huge risk, owing a guy like Zambrano that kind of money is risky, but it also could pay off huge. If I'm KW and it was possible, I definitely would do it. No way you trade that same package for Zambrano. While I agree that attitude would be less of an issue here, he's simply not the same caliber of pitcher as Peavy. More importantly, he's owed $18 million/yr for the next three seasons and has been on the DL a bunch of times the past couple of years (IIRC).

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 5, 2009 -> 01:12 PM) Viciedo is a lock to be in the top 100. He's young and getting better and better with more experience and I expect to see a significant increase in power the 2nd half of the season. Viciedo will be a White Sox next year and I'd rank him as the #2 prospect behind Jordan Danks with Poreda sliding in at 3 just ahead of Tyler Flowers. The main reason is the pure upside of Danks/Viciedo. Viciedo has a shot to be a Miguel Cabrera type. Not saying he will, but he has massive power potential and an ability to hit for a very high average. I f***ing love his swing. I don't know if he'll learn to draw the walks or not, but if he develops that he has the ability to be a HIGH HIGH HIGH impact player and I expect him to rank in the top 25 to 30 prospect by the time this season is done. If Jordan Danks keeps playing like he's playing, he'll be in the top 25 to 30 as well at seasons end. Cfers with his tools, mixed with the minor league prodution, aren't a common occurance. Poreda I have where he his because of that nice sinking fastball but I also love Flowers. I'd say all four guys, if they play well, have a shot at being top 50 guys. I don't know if anyone else in the system has a shot at getting into the top 100 though. Hudson/Carter have a chance if they pitch really strong at higher levels. I wouldn't anticipate any of our top picks making the list unless we draft Scheppers or something or whomever we draft signs immediately and just puts up ridiculous numbers. So you don't think Brandon Allen has a chance at cracking the Top 100? It's a close call in my book whether Baseball America includes him. Personally, I think he should make it, but the lack of power this season will definitely hurt his case. It's too bad, because his contact and walk rates are getting better. I think an increase in homeruns and doubles will happen in the second half. The only other guy I see having a shot is Hudson, but his control and ground-ball/fly-out ratio have gotten a lot worse since his promotion to high A. I think he'll rebound, but he'll need to be down-right dominant in the 2nd half if he wants to move back into consideration.

QUOTE (VAfan @ Jun 4, 2009 -> 04:26 PM) Nate McLouth, the gold glove winning CF for the Pirates, just ended up in Atlanta for 3 minor league prospects, one rated #4, another #7, and a third unrated. Further, McLouth is 27 and signed for 3 more seasons. He's got speed, some pop, and enough of an eye to have an OBP in the mid-.300s. I don't follow the NL that much, but am I wrong in thinking this guy could have been the answer we've been seeking in CF since Aaron Rowand rode out of town? Plus he's a lefty with some power, and by next year when Thome is gone, the Sox will have no one who can fill that job. What am I missing? Couldn't we have bettered Atlanta's deal and filled a glaring hole in our lineup and roster? Yeah, we easily could have bettered Atlanta’s deal, but McLouth is simply not worth the cost. We have a very good CF and leadoff prospect in Jordan Danks, who is probably a 1 - 1 ½ years away. Once Danks is ready, we’d have to move McLouth to a corner spot, where his production would only be league average at best. No reason to waste valuable assets on a short-term upgrade in CF. Also, it’s pretty clear that Kenny’s focus right now is a front-line starter who can help this year and in the future. We shouldn’t trade any of the young players we have in AA unless it’s for a right-handed, stud pitcher who’s locked up for several seasons. If we need do an upgrade at CF or 2B, we should be able to find some cheap short-term options once we get closer to the trading deadline just because of the economy.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jun 4, 2009 -> 12:07 PM) I'm with you Rock. I should have qualified it by saying "until JorDanks arrives". The lineup I'd like to see post ASB: 1. Beckham 3B 2. Getz (a lot to prove still, granted, but a good handler of the bat, and you just KNOW Ozzie will love bunting GB over to 3rd after those leadoff doubles, to get that 1-0 lead. Needs to get steady AB's soon, so we know what we have, or don't have) 3. Q 4. JD 5. Thome 6. Paulie 7. Missile 8. AJP 9. BA (His potentially good OBP will help the lineup turnover, while his terrible situational hitting will do the least damage here) I've ALMOST given up on Fields, but I can see him as backing up 3B and 1B, as well as occasional DH against lefties - though Thome's been hitting LHP better of late. I think he's trade fodder, not that anything good will be sent our way for him. His chances of becoming a valuable piece in a trade are nearly gone. I don’t like moving Alexei out of the 2-hole. He’s been extremely productive there, especially with his speed and improved walk-rate this season. Once Quentin comes back, I think you got to keep riding Pods in the leadoff spot (and unfortunately in CF) until he gets injured or unproductive. At that point, you hope that Beckham or Getz has shown enough to hit one of them at leadoff and put BA in CF. As for Q himself, I’d hit him 6th until he gets his s*** together and then move him back to 3rd in the lineup. I really like the idea of the high-OBP of a healthy Quentin (if even possible this season) and Thome in front of Dye, Konerko and AJ.

My Top 10 prospects excluding Beckham: 1. Aaron Poreda 2. Jordan Danks 3. Dayan Viciedo 4. Brandon Allen 5. Tyler Flowers 6. Dan Hudson 7. Charlie Leesman 8. Dexter Carter 9. John Shelby 10. Jon Gilmore