Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (greg775 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 03:21 PM) How Kenny has kept his job is beyond me. Dunn.Peavy. Rios. Those are the kind of baseball players who get a guy fired. If Reed fails at closer, he also gave away the Sox only closer candidate for this season. Sergio for nothing. Real wise. Oh I forgot. Ozzie didn't have to play Rios and Dunn so that takes Kenny off the hook. Oz is at fault for playing them. Please ban Greg...he's clearly trolling here.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 08:01 AM) I refuse to believe these numbers are correct. If they are, teams are just stupid. The Red Sox are stupid for paying Matsuzaka what they did. The Rangers are stupid for paying Darvish what they did. If Cespedes gets $50 million as basically the equivalent of a #1 draft pick...think about that....Strasburg got $15.1 million...Harper got $9.9 million...and you're going to pay Cespedes $50 million and Soler $20-30 million? Come on...these numbers are outrageous. I still think Cespedes ends up in the $32-35 million range and Soler comes in around where Dayan's contract did. These comparisons to the draft are ridiculous. Strasburg & Harper weren't free agents, so comparing them to free agents makes zero sense. Strasberg easily would have gotten Darvish money if he were available to the highest bidder, but instead being subject to the draft limited him to $15 million. That in no way, shape, or form reflects his real value. So please stop comparing what guys on the open market cost relative to guys in a restricted market.

QUOTE (Baron @ Feb 7, 2012 -> 10:28 PM) Was just a joke. I was mainly talking about that stupid carnival style sign they have. Soler at $20 to $25 million just makes so much more sense than Cespedes at $60 million. Put him in Winston Salem with Thompson & Walker to start next season and hopefully you have Rios' replacement ready in 2014 or 2015 when he's either tradeable or gone. That's when we should be targeting to be competitive again.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 4, 2012 -> 12:51 PM) I think it's smarter to let someone else grossly overpay for middling talent whether that talent is 18 or 28. The importance of minor league talent has been extremely exaggerated the last couple of years. Please elaborate.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 4, 2012 -> 11:56 AM) . . . So the Cubs panicked. Listen, I despise the Cubs and actually think Theo is somewhat overrated. His previous organization had a significant competitive advantage over the vast majority of teams in baseball (money) and used those resources to develop a strong farm system. IMO, that doesn't make him a genius, it just shows he was smart enough to take advantage of a flawed system. Now that the system is changing, I think we'll have a better idea just how good Theo is. However, the system is currently in an in-between phase and there are still ways to take advantage of it. The Cubans represent a loophole and Theo is using his financial advantage to bring in more talent while he still can. Like I said, what should he spend the $7 million on instead? Something that helps his losing major league team this year? Ricketts is focused on a long-term plan and has already allocated a lot of cash for the draft and international signings. That cash loses it value next year once the cap is in place. Theo is smart to spend it now while he still can, even if the cost of young talent is far more expensive than it's been previously.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 4, 2012 -> 11:29 AM) I think that's overstated. First, what alternatives will the international players have? Second, HS'ers won't be able to better their signing bonus by all that much by going to college. The HS'er who is worth an $800,000 signing bonus will be drafted in the appropriate slot now, not in the 12th round. You do realize that international spending will be capped in the new CBA? Teams will only be able to acquire so much talent. A team like the Cubs will not be able to simply throws piles of money at Latin American players like they had originally planned. They will have a set dollar amount to work with, which will slow down their rebuilding plans. So now they are being proactive and going after the Cubans, because they can use their huge piles of money they've been saving to improve the talent base of their organization while they still can. Conception is far from an elite prospect, but he makes more sense than spending $7 million on a reliever or some other major league piece that won't help the Cubs win anything.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 4, 2012 -> 10:05 AM) It is still $7 million we are talking about. That doesn't change. The talent of Concepcion also doesn't change. You didn't get Bryce Harper, you got a 5th starter at best. I don't get what your point is. The $7 million was the market rate for Conception. Multiple teams bid on him and one felt he was worth $7 million. I'm sure others made offers close to that amount. Would he have gotten this much money last year? Definitely not, but this is an entirely different market. Teams are willing to spend big dollars to get the best talent they can before Latin American signings and the draft become capped. The value of young talent is simply greater now and that requires a premium in terms of cost. Maybe he was worth $3 million last year, but in today's market he's worth $7 million. So people can call it an overpay if they like, but I'd rather recognize it as the result of a new, unique marketplace. As for the talent comment, what do you mean it doesn't change? The kid is 18 years old. His ceiling is based on current projections of how his body and pitches will develop. Those projections will change as he gets older and continues to develop. He's no different than any other high-school pitcher in that sense. If you really don't think talent can change, then explain how Matt Moore went from an 8th round draft pick to one of the best pitching prospects in baseball.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 4, 2012 -> 08:03 AM) Wait, this kid is 18! Do you know how many 18 y.o. pitchers in professional baseball never see the big leagues due to injury alone. This is a strange signing because if you wait a year a similar pitching prospect will cost you what 1/10th this price? Concepcion doesn't have the stuff to merit this price tag. Because in a year you will be limited on how many dollars you can spend. If you're trying to rebuild and have money to burn, why not bring in as much talent as possible right now? Building through the draft and Latin American signings is going to take longer under the new CBA, since teams can no longer spend freely. The Cubs are smart to take advantage of this loophole while they still can, even if they have to pay a premium for the talent.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 4, 2012 -> 08:10 AM) Or would you rather take your chances on 16 Latin players giving them $500k each? The bottom line is if this guy was eligible for the draft, he' probably be lucky to get a decent fraction what he's getting from the Cubs. Maybe he's a key in getting another of the Cubans. Other than that, there are a lot of 18 year olds who throw 86-90 and dominate the lesser leagues they are playing in that will get nowhere near $8 million. If this guy were in the draft, would he be a top 10 pick? Bryce Harper got $6.25 million. $4 million is the recommended slot for the #1 pick. There has to be some reason the Cubs made this much of an overpay. What is so difficult to understand here. Conception's price was driven up because he's a free agent. Harper was a draft pick that had no competition for his services and the only leverage he had was threatening to sit out a year. They are completely different situations and there is no comparison to be made here.

QUOTE (Pale Sox @ Feb 4, 2012 -> 04:54 AM) Lefties his age with that velocity aren't rare, you're right. But lefties his age with that supposed velocity and command of it (and off-speed stuff) are. He is a low ceiling guy, but also a high floor guy. His scouting reports remind me a lot of David Holmberg at a similar age. This is the key point, the guy has a pretty good chance of being a back of the rotation starter. Floor may not be worth the same as ceiling when signing amateur free agents, but if you feel confident the kid can stick as a left-handed starter, as his floor suggests, then he's fairly valuable, even if his upside is likely to be that of a solid #4 or #5. What is an average #4 worth a year in terms of WAR? More than $1.75 million? If Conception's deal is for four years, then that's his annual salary. Is $1.75 million really that hard to exceed as a starter? Plus the kid is only 19. There's always the chance his fastball goes up a couple ticks or he learns a new pitch. He's still a relatively unknown quantity and his ceiling has a better chance to grow than his floor has to fall. Also, the comparisons to Cole are stupid, as one player was available in a free market and one was not. Cole would have gotten a s***-load more money if he was a Latin American free agent in this post new-CBA environment.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2012 -> 04:57 AM) I have no problem with that deal for the Cubs. An 18 year old already throwing 86-90 who pitched well in a league that is supposedly equivalent to AA is extremely impressive. He may have room to grow and develop too. That's a worthwhile investment as far as I'm concerned. Especially when international signings and draft spending will be capped in the near future. The Cubs definitely spent more money here than they would under the previous CBA, but the value of young talent has also increased significantly. When resources are limited, you end up paying a premium.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 2, 2012 -> 05:12 PM) Where the Sox get talent from is irrelevant to me. Dick Allen is right when he says this will take years to develop and will take at least that long to say if the Sox effort was successful. It's like the argument that the Sox don't spend on the draft. Maybe it's because they feel that they aren't very good at scouting amatuers. I think all the prospect gurus are trying to make the MLB draft as important to building a team as the NFL or NBA drafts. Truth is, it's not. Are you serious? Are you really suggesting that completely ignoring one of the largest providers of talent isn't a big deal? How exactly would you build a consistent winner without strong contributions from the draft and amatuer international signings?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 2, 2012 -> 06:18 AM) While I will applaud any effort to make the organization and scouting in particular better in any way, I'm not going to get too excited about the Sox stronger presence in the DR. It can help, but it probably will take a while, and the entire cast of characters from JR to KW to Ventura will probably be gone before it really pays off. I read last year the typical DR prospect takes 8 years to develop. How long it takes is irrelevant. We had a major flaw within our organization that is finally being addressed. We should all be ecstatic about that, because we've basically been trying to compete with practically no contributions from Latin America signings (outside of Cuba) since Ordonez & Lee. It's a miracle we've been as competive as we've these past few years all things considered and clearly it's been catching up to us as of late.

QUOTE (flavum @ Feb 1, 2012 -> 11:13 AM) Can we get away with a bench of Johnson, Flowers, Lillibridge, and Martinez? Johnson would be our only lefty off the bench and can only play 1B. I just don't see how that works with six right-handed regulars.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2012 -> 08:23 AM) MDGonzales Mark Gonzales Humber no. 5 starter at this point. As he should be. I'm fine with so called "competition" for the 5th spot in the rotation, but it should really take something significant to bump Humber from this spot. IMO, he earned this spot based on last season.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 10:56 PM) Then if the 05 players were that good, why should Ozzie get credit for being the best manager in Sox history for winning the WS? You can't blame last season all on the players, then give Ozzie all the credit for 2005. You're missing Greg's point, everyone deserves credit for winning it all in 2005, it's just that the players, KW, & Cooper deserve all the blame for the team sucking last season. Ozzie was simply spectacular in both of these seasons.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 02:22 PM) Not only that but he had one of the best records as well. Ozzie was a very good manager for the White Sox. He deserves the credit. That being said, I also think he wore out his welcome and it was time for him to go. It isn't black and white scenario. Thank him for the championship and the fun times but also don't let the door hit to in the arse on the way out. I just don't get how someone can have this line of reasoning. Wins alone don't tell you if someone is a good manager. Don't you think the actual amount of talent on a roster is single biggest driver of wins? Sure, the manager can impact that production by motivating his players and having them prepared to play, but there's no easy way to measure exactly how much of a difference he made. The manager's in-game decision-making is the other major way he can improve his team's chances to win and that is also difficult to measure. Regardless, wins only tell you how all the individual pieces performed in aggregate, they do not tell you anything about manager's specific contributions. Unfortunately, evaluating a manager has to be subjective. Look at how his roster performed versus how much talent it posesses. Consider how well his team did in close games, where the manager can actually make a difference. The worst team in baseball record-wise could very well have the best manager, if he got more out of his talent and made better decisions than all other managers would have in his role. You use wins to defend Ozzie as a great manager, while I would say his teams did not live up to expections since 2005. He may have the best record in Sox history, but IMO it should have been better given the talent he had. On top of that, he became a terrible in-game manager in recent years, making decisions so confounding it almost seems like he made them simply to put his stamp on the games. Guillen did a good job in 2005, but has progressively gotten worse to the point where he is a bad manager. If people don't agree, they must have missed the past couple seasons, because he cost a lot of games during that time with his idiotic decisions.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 10:12 AM) This, if he is successful, increases his trade value. They could get rid of him now but the return probably does not help the Sox in the short or long term except for JRs wallet. If he can close it could change that. QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 11:04 AM) Yes, and the same thing can also be true of Crain. This has been my stance for a while. Let's just hope that Robin will factor in KW's input and what's best for the organization into his decision-making moreso than Guillen. I think everyone here would agree that the GM and manager should have their own opinions, but at the end of day they should come to some sort of agreement on what the right course of action is. The manager's job isn't always to maximize wins, sometimes it's more important to develop young talent or play a player in hopes of increasing his trade value. I honesty think KW and Robin will be on the page in regard to these types of decisions, which should be a significant improvement from Ozzie.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 07:14 AM) I really don't understand why this sentiment has such a strong hold here. It's not as if he's this DeWayne Wise type player who got hot. He's always put up solid minor league numbers, he has the physical tools, he's made opening day rosters in the past and he came through a pretty well respected minor league system. The only reason it's taken him so long to make it to the majors full time is injuries. The leg injury he suffered in Florida was quite bad and detrimental to his development. Concerns over his ability to stay healthy are one thing, but I think he's proven that, when healthy, he is quite capable of being a major league starter. As the roster is currently constructed, he definitely deserves to be the everyday CF and leadoff hitter. If Robin wants to go with a straight platoon with De Aza and Lillibridge, I'd be more than fine with that. I do have more faith in De Aza as a regular than Lillibridge though. Both have a nice set of physical tools, but De Aza has a history of actually turning those tools into production in the minors. People keep forgetting that Lillibridge suddenly put everything together last year at the major league level and that screams fluke to me. Right now, I would try to limit him as a lefty-masher and defensive replacement off the bench. If he succeeds in that role again in 2012, then you can consider expanding his role. Now, if we somehow manage to sign Cespedes, which seems very unlikely, I'm cool with doing a four man OF rotation with him, Rios, Viciedo, and De Aza, with De Aza starting all games against right-handed pitching.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jan 25, 2012 -> 01:10 PM) Maybe he has found the light? Forgiveness is divine they say... Anything is possible I guess and it appears he must have been well regarded as a prospect at one time I think people make too much of young people doing stupid things. Not saying his behavior was acceptable, but people can change over time and maybe he's finally grown up. None of us really have a clue, but hopefully the Sox did their homework and feel that he's actually matured. Either way, give him a short leash and there's essentially no risk with this signing.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jan 25, 2012 -> 12:45 PM) Sox are stupid if they don't let Reed close from the start. They have nothing to lose, and they should know by now that Thornton and Crain aren't closers. No they're not. Thornton and Crain may or not be able to close, that still remains to be seen. Regardless, you may as well roll the dice on one of them and hope they can get the job done. If so, you've exponentially increased their value (especially Crain) and could get back something really nice for one of them come the deadline. Then you can think moving Reed into the role if you want. Also, what's the rush in making Reed our closer? He'd probaly get more innings in a non-closer role, and I'd rather have him work through any initial nerves or adjustments in a low pressure role anyways. If we don't plan on competing next year, we can wait a few months to make him our closer.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jan 25, 2012 -> 08:26 AM) A long high-pitched wail was just heard coming from Kansas. When your organization lacks as much talent as us, you got to take chances on guys like this. He clearly had some physical tools when he was in the Marlins system (BA Top 100 prospect from 04 to 06) and is still relatively young at 28. The odds are definitely against and it's possible that the shoulder injury has impacted his stuff, but I really see nothing to lose here. If he has attitude problems in Charlotte, then you simply release him. Given our current situation and our history with reclamation projects (both physical and personal), I'm willing to take a gamble on a guy like this.

Honestly, the articles on Dunn's off-season are not giving me much faith in him having a major rebound. Hasn't gotten in better shape, hasn't swung the bat much, and hasn't watched any tape of his terrible 2011 to determine if there are mechanical flaws that need correcting. If I were Dunn, I would have spent the entire off-season trying figure what caused my problems in 2011 and done anything in my power correcting them. Sounds like the off-season getting over his embarrassment.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 23, 2012 -> 07:16 PM) Nothing like giving guys promotions for the fine job they are doing overseeing what some call the worst farm system in baseball. Are you really go to blame him for our organization's poor scouting, refusal to go above slot, and complete lack of a Latin presence? I think it's still too early to evaluate him properly. He's simply not had enough talent to work with during his time here. One thing I like about him is that he actually pushes prospects. Guys that perform well are much more likely to moved to the next level mid-season than under the previous regime. I also think he does a better job of challening older pospects by putting them in more age appropriate leagues.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 01:59 PM) I would say the burden of proof is yours. There are plenty of stories about Hamilton shutting down Wade, and not the other way around. I'd say the people who are saying it isn't true owe the work here. I'm pretty sure those stories were about Wade having trouble defending Hamilton, because Rip is constantly running around on offense. I'm never heard or read anything about Rip being a Wade stopper.