Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 07:46 PM) Btw, a 4-6 year rebuilding process would be a disaster. That's "cut payroll down to $50 million" bad. How long do you think a full rebuilding would take given the poor quality of our farm system? We'd have to suck for several years to get enough high draft picks. If you hit those, maybe you get lucky and it takes four years. If you miss on enough of those it could take a lot longer. When you start losing 90-100 games for multiple years in a row, attendance will drop and payroll will fall.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 05:37 PM) They can't rebuild with the current GM and probably others in this organization. I'm not sure if KW has the patience for a legitimate rebuilding. Hard to really say how he'd do, because he's never done more than a retooling. Regardless, if we are going to go through a 4 - 6 year rebuilding process, then we definitely need new blood throughout the organization. That includes a new GM and manager.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 05:33 PM) I'm starting to believe Viciedo is being shopped around. He's a Boras client. Then shop him a year or two before he reaches free agency if Boras is still his agent and he won't sign a long-term deal. There is absolutely no reason to shop him right now. He's going to make between $1 - 2 million a year in each of the next three seasons and most likely being extremely productive. I don't know what you think you'll get for him that will be of equal or greater value. Prospects like Viciedo just don't get moved very often anymore, because they are just too damn valuable.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) I can't speak for KW, but if I were in his chair...the only thing that would prevent me from doing the full hard sell is a major run of winning. Define hard sell. If you're proposing a full rebuild, then I think that's a huge mistake. I'm down for a couple moves, such as trading Jackson and Quentin, but I don't think we're that far off from competing next year. I think anything beyond a few tweaks is a huge mistake. What team should we be scared of in 2012? Not saying we'll be the favorite, but I don't see any team in the division who's going to be dominant. I still think you try to make one more run at it in 2012 before you even consider rebuilding.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) Really, I don't think that's what KW's thinking at all. I'd guess he's thinking "Rios and Dunn are flat out unmovable. I have to get something out of them, there's no benefit to me to benching them, either this season or long term. This team is borderline ready to be dismantled, and I've got 2 more weeks to the deadline. Let it play out as-is, and if things don't snap back immediately, I'm going to have to be a seller." Whether we're in it or not, we're a stronger team with Viciedo in the starting lineup everyday. Between LF, RF, and DH, he should be able to start 5 - 6 games a week. There is no logical reason whatsoever to not bring him up now that it won't cost us a service year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 07:47 AM) Even if we wanted to move Adam Dunn somewhere in the field...we legitimately have no where to put him. We're still searching for a leadoff replacement for Pierre who will have to be put somewhere, we've got Viciedo ready to break in, and Lillibridge has flat out earned more playing time than he's gotten. All I'm saying is if Dunn is struggling because he can't handle DHing, then you must start thinking outside the box. We can't have a $14 million/year DH that can't hit. If playing the field were to change that, then you have to consider moving him to LF. His defense would be awful, but you could conceivably get more value out of him if moving from DH allowed him to start hitting than what we are getting now. Now, I don't think his problems are related to DHing specifically, but if he continues to struggle into next year, then that becomes a more realistic possibility. And if that there were to happen, he becomes valueless and unmoveable, so you'd have to try something drastic. Let's just hope he has a good second half and this will not be an issue again.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 06:39 AM) Sad thing is, I would LOVE to keep Alonzo as the sox don't have anyone remotely close to him as a 1B prospect or even a prospect in general, but we have that Konerko guy (barring rebuild) and can't even stick him at DH cause of Dunn. (Alonzo can play LF, but is much better defensively as a 1B) Well if you are concerned that Dunn can't handle the mental aspects of DHing, maybe moving Dunn to LF has some logic to it. If that's the case, Alonzo can slide into the DH spot next year. Having said that, I'm not buying that his struggles are relating to DHing though. Regardless, if you move Quentin and Jackson, you take the best offers available and worry about fitting guys in later. Our system is seriously lacking in talent and we can always package some of the prospects/players in these deals to fill other needs.

I find it hilarious that people think we'd get nothing for Jackson. SP is always expensive at the deadline and while Jackson isn't a world-beater, he can eat some innings and potentially have a dominating stretch like he did for us last year. The rental factor hurts, but like everyone has said the type B compensation helps make up for it. Someone will give you something of value for Jackson. We won't be getting a Hudson/Holmberg package, but I could easily see one desperate team giving us a top 100 prospect for him. What other SPs will be available? Which ones are far more valuable than Jackson? Like always, supply will drive up of a mediocre, yet talented pitcher.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 9, 2011 -> 06:48 AM) It seems like it was a nice speech, however, thel Blue Jays still don't draw very well. I will say this, I do agree with his premise. I've been saying for years if the White Sox spent as much time trying to figure out how to kick Minnesota's ass as they do kissing it, they wouldn't be in the quandry they are currently in. They just seem to accept the Twins are better than them, no matter what the standings or the line ups say. And that starts with our coaching staff. Ozzie is constantly praising the Twins and how they "play baseball the right way". I can't stand that s***. Why can't he go to the press and say "I hate those f***ers and we'll do whatever it takes to beat them". Bring some hatred and anger to the table. This team continues to rape and pillage us year after year. I'm so sick of this cowardly lion act where we accept defeat before the series. If Ozzie can't find a way for us to beat the Twins, then KW needs to go find another manager right away, because we'll never win the division going 4-15 against them every year.

If this offer is true, I think you have make the deal. I actually don't think the drop from Quentin to Viciedo will be as big as some people think and I believe Viciedo would offer more consistency, which can help offset some of our offensive struggles when we're in one of our notorious team-wide slumps. More importantly, trading for Beachy allows you to move at least one starter and possibly two. One way or the other, you should be able to get a rental upgrade at LF or 3B for Jackson. I think that upgrade would more than compensate any downgrade in RF, so your offensive overall should improve a little. Swapping Jackson for Beachy would probably be a wash for this year, but offers obvious long-term benefits. The flexibility to trade a second starter is also interesting, although the only two with signicant value (excluding Humber, because god only knows how other GMs view him) are Danks and Floyd. I could see KW getting real creative and moving Floyd for a package that helps us both now and in the future. Having said all this, a Beachy-Quentin deal is risky but could pay serious dividends. I'm definitely willing to roll the dice on this deal if it were actually offered.

Can we please just fire Walker already? What harm could really come from it? I'm sick of watching half of our offense underperform on a daily basis and not attempting to change anything.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 1, 2011 -> 11:41 PM) Juan Pierre's batting average doesn't suggest he should be DFA'ed. What the f*** are talking about? Juan Pierre's .262 BA tells you he is a below average contact hitter and that advanced stats and scouting are necessary to tell the whole story. Even a basic stat like SLG will tell you that is one of the emptiest batting averages in baseball. Add in his .321 OBP and a roughly 50% CS rate and we can quickly conclude that Juan Pierre is one of the worst hitters in baseball. Whether you DFA is if you think he can get significantly better, both offensively and defensively fairly soon, and that comes down to scouting. IMO, he looks like he's lost a step, which can be the beginning of the end for a speed based player. I think most scouts would agree and I seriously doubt any team would trade anything of value for him, be it talent or finacial considerations. Regardless, batting average tells you nothing about Juan Pierre but to investigate further.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 07:42 AM) If the Sox do sell off, you have to imagine Pauly at the top of the list of players teams will want. If the Sox were smart they would try to package PK with one of the bad contracts (Peavy or Rios) to blow a hole in the payroll, ala Florida with the Cabrera/Willis. Um, what? Konerko may be good, but he's not in the same world as Cabrera and is old as f***. No one is going to take on Rios or Peavy's contract just to get Konerko. If you move Konerko, you take the best prospects available. Outside of a huge package, I'd be hesitant to move him though, since I think with a few personal changes and a new manager we can compete in 2012.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) So what happens if Vic isn't that stud immediately at the major league level? Do you blame Walker? I'm a little cautious when it comes to believing a player in AAA is the answer to their problems. You know Viciedo had an .850 OPS in the majors last year right?

I'm honestly convinced that if we called up Viciedo today, he would have an +.900 OPS the rest of the way and would not be prone to massively-long slumps like half of these cowards. He's just a pure hitter and our team desperately needs one of those right now. It's just so frustrating and inexcusable that he's not up right now. KW's job could come down to our finish this season, yet he and Ozzie are trying to get every single extra mileage out of a over-the-hill Juan Pierre. 99.9% of people agree that this simple change could have a huge impact on our offense. How can KW not see this? He can't honestly believe that Pierre has something left in the tank right? You can tell from watching him that Pierre has lost a step. I've supported KW for years, but I'm feeling like it's time for a change. We need a new front office and a new coaching staff. The only guy I would try to keep is Cooper. Go after Dave Martinez and let him pick the rest of his coaching staff. As for GM, Rick Hahn is not an option IMO. I'd like to see Reinsdorf offer Andrew Friedman a boat-load of money to take over our organization. While I will not advocate rebuilding unless all hell breaks loose, I want a GM who's got some actual experience building a quality organization from the ground up. We need to start making changes to our philosophy towards player development. I'm not giving up on this year or next year anytime soon, but need to commit more resources to this area. In particular, something needs to be done about Latin America soon, because we are playing short-handed right now and it's killing us.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 01:52 PM) And this is why you and Balta have, like, 150,000+ posts between the two of you. You guys debate and have something to say about EVERYTHING. If a black writer had written exactly what Phil Rogers said, you're not going to say that dumb "N," unless you're just a racist. You're going to say he's a f***ing moron, idiot, or use even the dreaded "R" word. That part of the article was so ridiculous that you would have to assume there's something not right mentally with the author. And we're not just talking about some random geek from a blog or something. This guy is a writer for a major newspaper. It does raise a lot of questions about Phil Roger's intelligence. I don't know many, if any people that would suggest some sort of Ozzie/Peavy for Ramirez blockbuster deal. It's just absolutely mind-blowing that someone actually gets paid to write this s***. Having said that, I do enjoy reading his fairy tales. He's not a bad writer, just a complete f***ing idiot.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 09:19 AM) lol. Was that you that brought up WAR and how Viciedo would probably add three or four more wins to the Sox over the course of a season? Of course, Ranger's response was the White Sox aren't going to dump Pierre because they have to get some sorta return on their "investment." And that there's still value in a guy that can hit .290. I respect Rongey 90% of the time, but when he pulls the company line bulls*** I can't stand him. He did the same thing when Ozzie lead off Wise, saying we had to give Wise a chance before we could demand a change. Unfortunately, anyone with any baseball smarts and access to minor league stats knew Wise was garbage offensively. He can't honestly believe some the crap that he says, but I guess it's just part of the job.

QUOTE (docsox24 @ Jun 15, 2011 -> 09:42 AM) I know you guys don't want to hear this but Juan isn't going anywhere and Dayan will not be replacing him anytime soon. That's terrible news but expected. Guillen will not give up on Juan Pierre, so praying for an injury is the only option. That will never happen though. When is the last time he had a major injury? I will say this much, Viciedo and Quentin better be our corner OFs next year. If KW were to trade Quentin to open up LF for Juan Pierre or another slapster I will go f***ing crazy.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jun 12, 2011 -> 10:59 PM) I see a 4th outfielder or a 2nd division starter at best. And I think him becoming a 4th outfielder would be very valuable. He's a strong defender who's capable of playing all three OF positions. His left-handed bat would work well behind Rios and Viciedo. Also, anything that gives John Danks another reason to stay long-term is a plus.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 10:09 AM) Pods was the lionshare of scoring first in 50whatever games to start that year. He was a huge shot in the arm to get that season rolling early. I remember seeing our deviations for runs scored that year and was amazed at how small they were. We were much more consistent in scoring that year, and I think that really helps the pitching staff. Now we haven't seen that kind of a year from a leadoff hitter again (while Pods was healthy) but I get the idea of what that is supposed to do for an offense. I understand the value of a good leadoff hitter. You pointed out one of the major perks, which is they can prevent some offensive deviations from game to game. Having said that, the key word here is good. Pierre is not good, and we kept throwing Pods out there after he stopped being good. When Guillen does this, he isn't managing to the team's strengths, but rather trying to fill a unneccesary need with a mediocre player. That's extremely stupid, especially when you have to play said player in LF and forego power.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 09:15 AM) For what Lee is doing and getting paid out there, I'd rather have Pierre. Well I'd rather have neither of them. My point was that we used to have power in LF, but Guillen needed to insert a slappy leadoff hitter into the lineup, so we are now forgoing any power whatsoever at a traditional power position.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 07:58 AM) The reason that Viciedo isnt up is that LF is reserved for a slappy leadoff type hitter. Ozzie has wanted that since day one. The only reason Quentin got to start in LF is because Owens got hurt at the end of ST. Or it would of been another slappy, no power, track star. It really is pathetic. We went from Carlos Lee in LF to Pods and Pierre under Guillen. I will never truly understand his fascination with slappy leadoff hitters other than remind him of himself. I honestly think that 90% of people that follow baseball somewhat closely would agree that we would be so much better with Viciedo in LF right now. I just can't fathom having a GM and manager who think otherwise. It's just so blatantly obvious. Also, I'm praying that Viciedo has played some LF in AAA or at least has worked out there in practice. If Pierre were to ever get injured, and I had my fingers crossed last night that Morel was going to take care of that for us, then Viciedo should be ready to go in LF. I'm not sure if that's the case. I'm also not sure they'd call up Viciedo if Pierre went down. I could almost see Guillen starting Lillibridge in LF everyday and bringing up De Aza to be the 4th OF. Honestly, I have no faith in Guillen making the right decision. The fact that KW values Ozzie's opinions on player doesn't help matters either.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 9, 2011 -> 01:20 AM) Has anyone seen Dayan play the outfield yet? Maybe he still needs work. I get the impression the organization has a fear of bringing him up too soon. I think the question should be has Dayan played LF yet? I'm worried that KW/Ozzie will use that as some sort of excuse for not calling him up.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 2, 2011 -> 08:41 AM) Not to mention Tyler Flowers seems to have come back to life. He could still be a major league catcher yet. He remains the key part of that trade. We need to continue infusing the roster with cost-controlled players and we don't have many prospects that could be ready in the next year or two. Viciedo will be in a corner spot next year, which will help a lot. If Flowers could take Castro's role next and then the starting spot in 2013, that would be huge for our long-term success. Having Beckham, Morel, Viciedo, and Flowers in the everyday lineup would give us a nice set of cost-controlled players to supplement some of the bigger contracts we'll still have on the books.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ May 27, 2011 -> 04:05 PM) Yeah me too. It's not that I think Edwin is our worst starter, it's that I think he will be a very effective weapon out of the pen. Throwing 100 mph with that sick movement. He should tear through some hitters for us, and be able to go 2+ IP if needed. I worry about his control issues coming out of the bullpen.