CyAcosta41

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jan 22, 2014 -> 11:57 PM) Considering Hector was on pace for about a 2 WAR pitcher in a full 32 start season, I think it's possible that EJ could match that over a full season, even though he was pretty bad in his 5 starts last year. Bad? You think he looked bad? Not me. I thought he looked ... "promising." I saw nothing that made me think he was yet another minor league stud with no real major league future. Instead, I saw a promising rookie ... up for his cuppa joe in the Bigs ... running on fumes at the end of a really long season for him. He looked like he had a plan. He competed ... hard. He didn't look overmatched. In fact, to me he looked like a tough SOB who wanted to be in control, and will often be in control once the butterflies are gone and he has that inner confidence that he can have success in this league. I know it's the popular view to view EJ as an innings-eater #4 type. I see him more of a solid #3, with an opportunity to get into that #2 terrain during his best years. In any case, I think his command and his frame gives him a greater likelihood of reaching his ceiling than Hector. And I was a big Hector fan.

He's got all sorts of medical red flags stemming from a violent whip of a delivery, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Sox took a run at Tommy Hanson, letting the Coop/Hermie tandem do their thing with him. The guy has all sorts of talent - profiling as a legit #2, with big-time swing-and-miss stuff, WHEN HEALTHY. Hanson and Tyler Flowers were Braves farmhands who were both absolute monsters in the 2008 AFL and Kenny was supposedly in love with both. Hanson was untouchable, but Kenny (unfortunately) pried away Flowers in the Javy trade. If Kenny still has any influence in such matters, it wouldn't be surprising for the Sox to target Hanson. I'd like that, but only if they think he's a decent medical risk, and not just a (wounded) wing and a prayer. With FA pitchers, either go after the legit 1s, 2s, and 3s of the world, or the 4s if they are ultra dependable. There are always the Rienzo types within our system to bring up as a 5 - no need to ever waste FA money for that.

LOVED that the Sox (apparently) pursued this guy hard - within their organizational limits; VERY GLAD they didn't chase beyond any kind of common sense. There's risk and then there's foolish risk. There are 2-3 teams in all of baseball who can take enormous risk, yet their virtually bottomless war chest allows them to avoid out-and-out catastrophe if it plays out badly -- the Yankmes, the Dodgers, and (probably) the Bosox. Objectively, if we take Hahn at his word (and there is no reason not to at this point), the Sox offered competitive financial terms, and presented the intangibles in the most positive possible light that allowed for the possibility of Team Tanaka to value these subjective considerations as they chose to do so. There was ample reason to believe that subjective factors would play a part. Great. Be in the mix on the objective and let Team Tanaka ultimately decide how they weigh the entire package. My guess is that some of these factors played a part, but, at the end of the day, total guaranteed years won out. That's life. No regrets from having a sensible approach and losing because someone else did something that you'd never be willing to do (and certainly NOT with this team at this time). Can't guarantee the results, gentleman; just the process. Despite being a long-time good karma guy who rarely wishes anyone ill, I hope Tanaka bombs miserably and the Yankmes have to chew on this for years to come. Money like this is crazy money (all sophisticated value of WAR notwithstanding) for a human who throws with a flesh and bone arm who has NEVER thrown a pitch in major league baseball. To me, Abreu money - given today's relative dearth of true power - was well within the bell curve of sensible risk. This? Crazy risk. Take half of what you were willing to spend on this guy, plow it into a million other areas of the organization, and I feel so much better about our long-term chances. I'd love to see this turn out badly so that there is at least MORE of a chance that the financial giants out there have to think a little harder about whether they want a Tanaka situation on their hands. Market correction is sometimes an overall good thing.

It's a must listen for the serious and knowledgeable fan. I was very impressed by the way Rick handled this year's trade deadline, including the couldn't-be-more-obvious "testing" that he was getting from his fellow GMs. Maybe the overall results weren't exactly what some of us wanted, particularly with regard to some of the scenarios that weren't very likely in the first place. The overall results probably weren't what Rick wanted either. But you can't guarantee results. You guarantee a process -- having a sound plan, sticking-to-it when warranted, making sensible adjustments when warranted as well. In the long run, your chances of success -- no matter how measured -- will be maximized by hard-work and sound process. And I was impressed by this interview -- very intelligent, great demeanor, clear understanding of BOTH the business of baseball and the game of baseball. Don't take my word for it. Find the interview on the Score and give it a listen. I believe we have an excellent man for the job -- the right man -- in working through this time of transition (won't use the "r" word), righting the ship, and becoming an organization that will challenge each and every year (something that was actually lacking in the former regime, even if we were, in fact, generally "good").

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 30, 2013 -> 11:19 AM) I don't think that is correct. Too many times in the past people on this board and have said we received too llittle in trades. Just because a trade can be made doesn't mean it's a god one. Or even a "good" one. Sometimes we treat these prospects ratings AS IF they are science and not art. They might have some objective facts behind them, and some consensus-think, but for the most part they are a mix of objective, subjective, projection, and personal feelings. Art. Not science. I don't want anybody's #1, #2, or #3 just because some service or mag rate them as such. Joe Borchard was once a #1. The now disfavored Mike Olt was a can't touch #1 as well. I want MORE than what Garza returned because Peavy is better (IMO), and to a contender who believes they're a contender in 2014 too, Peavy gives them a top-tier starter for 2014 at what is likely a fair contract rate. So, more than Garza is required. But exactly what equals "more," is very subjective. I'd imagine that Hahn is telling people "more than Garza" as his threshold return, but the subjectivity of the whole thing gives him all the wiggle-room he could ever want. I don't want a trade of Peavy for the sake of trading Peavy. IMO, you show strength by saying "you want this potentially valuable asset for your stretch run (and for 2014) ... then give us a fair return. End of story." Both Cards and Red Sox have the need, farms, and bank -- one of these two will take him today.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 30, 2013 -> 10:31 AM) I think there isa fine line between a tough negotiator and being unreasonable. Keeping PV out is a courtesy. If you get known as unreasonable, I think it hurts your abilityto trade in the future because others will stay away. This is his first year so he needs to be tough as he's shown but also willing to work things out. Amen. (My shortest reply EVER -- before the editorial about this being my shortest reply ever.)

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2013 -> 10:05 AM) Well, we'll agree to disagree. I know if I was a GM and I wanted Peavy, I'd take this as a sign that Peavy will indeed be moved for the highest bid, as opposed to there is a "reserve" that must be met, as you mentioned. I would hold my ground and refuse to increase my offer, except perhaps incrementally. I certainly wouldn't be making a big increase. Now if we had Jake start tonight, I'd be thinking "this mfer (Hahn) is crazy as s***, and he means what he says" and I'd have no freaking clue whether my previous offers were really near that reserve you spoke of or not. And if I felt my Club really needed another arm for the stretch run, I'd probably be second guessing myself whether I should be giving up that better prospect or not. I'd be shocked if Rook Hahn (who IS being tested in a big way) hasn't many times told teams - provided we get offers exceeding our minimum, then highest bidder wins. Rick is a former attorney and a former player agent. That's how these people operate. So, it's no secret that this has always been the "game" and pitching him tonight sends no message at all. At least that's my take. You (and a couple of others) mentioned that perhaps an additional message it sends is something in the nature of Hahn being a crazy mofo, a wildman, and so forth. Yeah, if Hahn were a complete unknown. He's been around for a long-time -- as Kenny's right-hand man, probably doing most of the behind the scenes stuff. They all know who he is. Playing the part of the crazy mofo, when he's an analytical business guy would be the kind of ridiculous play-acting that I'd actually think would be counterproductive long-term. But hey, everybody reads people differently. You imagine his cronies thinking he's a "crazy mofo"; I imagine many or most saying "what a dumb f*ck." I don't see any weakness here. I see a guy with a plan, who is following his plan to the letter, and who is sensible enough to not let some transparent/artificial show of fake strength (starting him tonight) get in the way of running the plan out the last few hours.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2013 -> 09:40 AM) I disagree. Unless we're really, really close on something (medicals), I'd start him. I think we give up some leverage by holding him out. Starting him sends a message to other teams that we're willing to move on with him in our rotation if we don't get solid offers. Hahn's first sign of weakness, IMHO. And I respectfully disagree with you, Shack. There's no loss of leverage by starting him, no "message to other teams that we're willing to move on with him" if he takes the mound. It isn't as if it's a secret that Peavy is on the block, but with a reserve -- that is, highest bidder gets him, BUT no bid considered unless > X. Were it not for the transparency of this overall situation, I'd agree with you. Send a message. But here, everybody knows what's going on, everybody knows there's a deadline looming, and everybody knows the Sox will keep Peavy, happily, if the threshold level demands are not meant. So, in that context, there is no reason whatsoever to start him tonight because there is absolutely nothing to be gained by doing so (plus the winning bidder gets a bonus of an immediate Peavy start). Push him back one day, play this "game" out through the Wednesday afternoon finish line, and, if he isn't traded, a one more day rested Peavy gets Wednesday night's start. In general, messages are fine and all, but in this overall context, nobody needs THIS message. More importantly, I definitely don't see this as ANY sign of weakness. It would have been a sign of weakness if he had prematurely shut Peavy down before today. But I think this was played perfectly - keep everyone guessing until the day of the start (or the night before - no difference really), but do the smart thing and don't risk anything goofy happening with TOMORROW afternoon being the deadline. PS ... The only strength necessary is to stick to the "threshold or greater" return demands and don't crater and become somebody's patsy.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Jul 29, 2013 -> 04:26 PM) The reason to trade Peavy is to get prospects-- not to soothe the fans and give them some emotional reward If you're not getting good prospects, then you dont deal him. YES. A minimalist post with maximum TRUTH. We don't have to deal him -- good pitcher, good guy, good contract. If we're satisfied with the quantity and quality of prospects being offered, then, sure, it's a reasonable time to trade Peavy. If we're not, then we're not dealing him (at least to you). The Sox shouldn't be the KC Athletics of the 50s and 60s and be the farm team for the Yankees of that era. We're not giving away guys. If you won't pay "fair" prices, maybe someone else will. If nobody will now, then they may on our other players, or at other times. In general we have to start making some deals, at some point, but there are many types of deals. We ... don't ... have ... to ... trade ... Jake Peavy. THAT SAID ... I believe he is traded tomorrow. After all of this posturing/testing, somebody will jump up and pay the freight. It's not that common to find a pitcher of Peavy's ilk available for a stretch drive, and one with a "relatively" favorable contract to boot (including the ability to have him for just one more year). Someone should (and, I predict, WILL) value him like that ... and then he's gone.

QUOTE (mike65 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 11:08 PM) As to your last paragraph, I hope you are right. Mo is a tough MoFo because he is very disciplined. The trade of Peavy & Ramirez to the Cardinals has made the most sense to me for over a month. Something has caused Mo to say tonight that he doesn't expect a big deal. Part of it is negotiations but part of it is also being realistic. I am thinking that the player cost is too high because he has consistently said that the Cardinals can absorb the money. Something has made him say that because he's not willing to strike a deal ... now. Or maybe he actually is, but wants to get something better. The same exact thing can be said for Hahn. All this stuff is fluid and changing. There reaches a point -- in this case, when the deadline hits when lack of a deal means definitively no deal. Until then, lack of a deal can mean so many things that I prefer not to waste too much energy trying to figure out what is truth and what is bluffing. And a deal might not be reached. Sometimes it's because one party or the other is objectively "unrealistic." But sometimes it's because each side is working with a different script, and requiring certain things that the other simply can't match. As a White Sox fan, I want my GM to have a good and solid plan, and then to implement that plan to the best of his ability. Sometimes he'll be able to make quality deals (and even quality deals might never turn into something positive). Sometimes he won't. It's the discipline and trying that is important. More often than not, in the end it results in more hits than misses. But what I certainly don't want is a patsy GM who can't pass a "test" and is unable to stand-up to the bullies. Sometimes you win simply by not letting others take advantage of you. Then, you fight another day. Hope the Sox and Cards figure out a way to make something work ... and hope Peavy and Ramirez get a chance to be World Series Champs with the Cards!

QUOTE (mike65 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 10:23 PM) A thoughtful analysis but I think the problem your team has, at least at this moment, is that your owner appears to not want to pay any salary for players that aren't on his team. Your have my Cardinals, Red Sox, Braves, Orioles, and A's that have all checked in on Peavy and they have all checked out with an empty basket. There is something not right about this picture, You say it is the 7th inning of a 9 inning game. Unlike a baseball game, your competition can just leave you standing at the altar with your demands in hand. Do you really want to still have Peavy on Thursday morning? The White Sox may ultimately get a deal done here but I am pretty sure that they will either lower their player demands or increase the money they are willing to put in a deal. You guys are not trading Sandy Koufax. Who says our owner appears not to want to pay ANY salary for departed players? Gammons? Others? What do they actually know? Anything more than what others with vested interests tell them? Or plant with them? Do they know what Rick Hahn actually will do? What Chairman Jerry will ultimately do? And these reports of "checking out with an empty basket" ... these actions are without agendas? To be believed at face value? All of this ... every bit of this ... is big league negotiations. None of us -- none of Gammons and his cronies -- know exactly what has happened to this point and the true bottom-lines for all teams. In the end, I'm enjoying the twists and turns of all of the reporting, but it's really just fluff and entertainment. Everyone concerned has self-interest and an agenda. I hesitate to take ANYTHING I'm hearing at face value because everyone - and the plants and shills - are posturing. This goes for the White Sox, your Cards, and every other team in baseball! And you know what? I personally have no problem whatsoever if we're left with Peavy on Thursday morning -- he's an excellent pitcher, with a contract for the remainder of 2013 and all of 2014 which is very fair for a pitcher of his ilk, and if nobody makes a "fair" deal for him now, then somebody might during the offseason, or at next year's trade deadline. You're right - we're not trading Sandy Koufax here. But, not a single one of the prospects being discussed are the second coming of Strasburg, Harper, or Trout either. Prospects are prospects. No guarantees. But there is a heck of a lot more certainty that an excellent pitcher like Peavy (or current above-average major league players like Rios or Ramirez) will actually help a current contender to possibly win the whole thing than ANY of these prospects being a contributor on a future pennant winner. AND THAT is why some GM will ultimately pay a fair asking price -- because nobody is guaranteed the next shot at winning it all at any particular time. Quite honestly, I think Peavy/Ramirez wind up going to the Cards (my NL team). GM Mo is a smart MOfo ... and a tough one ... and someone who I hope Rook Hahn turns into ... and the fit is so obvious, and the timing/need just right ... that the two of them will find the right combo of players and money.

I guess what I'm also saying is this ... HAVE FUN with all of this. For a lot of us, the serious fans, many of whom know a heck of a lot about prospects throughout baseball, it's kind of similar to fantasy sports as we have fun speculating, deciding what we would do, extrapolating as to what we think our favorite teams should do, and so forth. But, like fantasy sports - it IS fantasy. We don't know what is happening. There is mis, dis, and non information aplenty out there. We can easily work ourselves up into a lather when, in actuality, there isn't one ounce of "truth" in the speculation being discussed. To me, recognizing this reality, it doesn't make the process less fun, it makes it MORE fun - I can have fun with all the speculation and fantasy of the situation, but the REAL GMs and owners, on their own private calls and in their 1:1 meetings, will in the end do whatever they feel like doing. And then we can have a new round of fun dissecting THAT! Enjoy the ride, fellas!

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 09:41 PM) I see your point. Makes sense. Someone will crack. I'm as anxious as anyone to start moving from the rubble of what KW has left us with towards a hopefully brighter future, but you fellas are going to drive yourselves crazy hanging as many of you do on ever rumor, innuendo, and smokescreen, particularly the supposedly "inside" info coming from the paid (broadly defined) shills. Deadline based negotiation is not for the faint of heart. The old boys' club is testing Rick "the Rook" Hahn -- and he knows it too. Falling apart and giving up on his convictions because shills and pundits like Gammons, Olney, Rosenthal, and others say he is being "unreasonable" in his demands is self-defeating. It gives up on the game before we've nearly completed it! Other than with Jesse Crain, we don't have a single expiring contract in our group of principle trade chips. Given the way things are progressing (or not), I'm quite sure that Hahn is making this clear at every opportunity, but then adding that he's open to trades provided they meet or exceed what his ball club needs. Period. Want some of our guys? Fine. Make it worth our while. Otherwise, we'll try to find someone else who will. Don't cry to me if you miss out on the arm/bat you need for your stretch run because you wouldn't make us what we'd consider a "fair" trade. We have absolutely no way of knowing what offers have or have not been discussed. None. We don't know whether Hahn already has multiple deals that he's prepared to take, although he perhaps hasn't told the other team that, all the while trying to find a last minute suitor who feels enough pressure at the last moment to lap the pack with an offer. Agents have been doing this to Hahn and other GMs/Owners for years. I'd bet my last dollar that KW and the Chairman have long been advised that Hahn's plan is to keep negotiating on various players, on various fronts, until the last few hours before the deadline. We don't have to trade. It's critical to maximize the return - whether now or in the off season. I know we're all anxious, but I truly hope that nobody really thinks that a professional baseball GM should cave because the hardcore fans of the world (like us) think that he might miss the boat altogether if he takes the plan to the conclusion. IF this IS the plan -- and I think it is -- we're just getting to the 7th inning, folks. We have plenty of opportunities left to win this nail-biter! Keep on keepin' on, Rick ("Rook") Hahn!

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 06:36 AM) This fake interest by Baltimore is a direct response to the fake availability of Samardzija. B ... I ... N ... G ... O. You nailed it, man. Mis, dis, and non information. Who are the contenders? And the pretenders? With Peavy in particular, but also with Rios and Ramirez, need to increase the pressure, stoke that sense of impending doom, and basically encourage someone, anyone, to play the part of KW and pony-up ... whatever it takes!

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 28, 2013 -> 12:10 AM) Toni Ginnetti ‏@toniginnetti 2h Sox closing in on trading Peavy http://voices.suntimes.com/none/sox-closin...-trading-peavy/ … via @suntimes Atta boy. That's using the press, Rick! Next time sprinkle in a bit of Bora$ too: "the Cardinals and Red Sox, joined by the Braves, D'backs, and Orioles, and with late inquiries by two mystery teams." Competition. Leverage. Smarts.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 11:03 PM) There was a wrestler back in the late '60's/early '70s named Sandy Acosta. Anyway as to the Crain situation, if no team is willing to take a chance and give the Sox something halfway decent for him even though he is currently on the DL, I'd rather the Sox just keep him until the end of the year and get nothing for him rather than give him away for peanuts to a contender because they feel they have the Sox over a barrel. If a contender wants one of the better relief pitchers in baseball when healthy to make a run at the playoffs make them pay for it or let them regret it when they miss the post season for lack of one more good bullpen arm. Agreed, man. But I think this one is all on Rick. Here's where you have to set-up the auction. Let every contending team know that he is being offered to every other contending team as a last minute trade deadline deal. Best offer gets him. "You don't want to tell your fan base that you missed out on an arm like Crain for the stretch run because you wouldn't give up even one quality prospect, would you?" I think we'll get one decent taker. If not, then, absolutely, no point being anybody's pushover.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 05:34 PM) Thanks Cy...I think we chatted briefly before because I enjoyed your handle...I went to a bar/restaurant a few years back in Houston named Cy Acosta's...he was a wrestler, correct? Let me ask you this...do you think that just because actual harm doesn't always occur by this sort of usage, it's therefore acceptable? Let's say I'm using a product incorrectly, but in 95% of the cases I misuse it, nothing bad happens. Since harm does not occur every time, does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur? Shack ... A wrestler? Oh no, man. The great Cecilio ("Cy") Acosta was a Mexican relief pitcher who joined the Sox in June of 1972 as part of that really enjoyable 1972 Sox team, that featured 20 year olds Terry Forster and Rich Gossage in the bullpen. Loved that team and Cy Acosta (good old #41) has long been one of those "blast from the past names" that some of my contemporaries enjoy hearing. His baseball card is my avatar! That's no wrestler, man!!! As for your post, I think you're misunderstanding me. You're suggesting with language like "this sort of usage" or "using a product incorrectly" that I'm implying that Crain was used incorrectly. I think nothing of the sort. So I never get to your rhetorical question of "does that only make the practice of misuse unacceptable when harm does occur." When I say that Crain was perhaps borderline overused, I mean that he was on the cusp of being used more than I might have preferred (given factors relevant to Crain's career). I simply wish circumstances had been different so that we had the option to "baby" him a little. Unfortunately: (a) there really wasn't a way around it since we've got to try and win games during that May time when he was used so much, and (b) it wasn't as if he was used in an unreasonable or excessive way, instead he was used slightly more, just minimally more, than I might have preferred. That's baseball. Gotta play the game with the players on the roster. Cy, the Goose, and that "Fat tub of Goo" weren't available! Personally, I think going back in time and looking at the past from what we know now (Jesse being injured; this Sox team, essentially sucking) is a great disservice to Ventura or Coop, UNLESS they used him wayyyyyyyyy too much, in a way that was way out of the bell-curve. And they didn't. In my opinion, most of his heavy use happened in May, as they battled to get to .500 in very late May. He barely pitched during the 9 game losing streak because he wasn't needed. Then he pitched a few games ... was off to give his arm a week breather ... pitched a few more games ... and then the DL stint. He's a paid, professional pitcher that was part of a bullpen. His manager and pitching coach leaned on him, but in a way that you need to be able to lean on a quality professional. Sure, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, had we known that his arm wouldn't hold up, then we might have babied him. However, had we done that, professional scouts would have also recognized that they couldn't rely on a pitcher like that anyway, so poof, there goes his trade value as well. Damned if you do; damned if you don't. It's unfortunate for Jesse that his injury likely curtailed his career year; it's unfortunate for the White Sox that his injury happened when it all but eliminated any real trade value (although, I still think someone will take a flyer on him on a PTBNL type trade); but no way do I think anyone is "guilty" of mis or overusing him.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 04:31 PM) Some great stuff in there, and I agree you can't say with any reasonable certainty when or how or why Crain got injured. I know you're a lawyer...don't you think I can make a pretty good case that if you believe Crain was overworked, and you stated that you believe he might have been, that that increased the likelihood of him suffering an injury? While any one pitch might be the one that causes an injury, that doesn't mean that you throw out all the other contributing factors. Too much work leads to fatigue which often leads to bad mechanics which increases the chances of sustaining injury. To me, the argument isn't whether he was overworked, but rather, was the rationale or reasoning for his frequent usage justifiable? I would argue yes. He was in the final year of his deal (likely no future with our club). He wasn't a young, developing player. We desperately needed him to attempt to stay in contention. RV did what he had to to try and keep the ship afloat. The intention was never to use Crain as an asset to trade until it was too late. You're a lawyer too, right? Then you probably noticed that I hedged my bet. It's not up on my screen right now, but I think I said that "I believe that he was borderline overworked" [emphasis added]. I used the hedge because while I do think he was used more than I would have liked him to be used in a perfect baseball world (and we all know the 2013 White Sox are existing in far from a perfect baseball world). Crain's long and short term history suggests his shoulder gets fatigued. We can debate all day long whether this happens from getting thrown out there too many consecutive days, or whether it's from too many pitches in any given outing, or whether it's nothing more than the nature of Jesse Crain being basically a little guy with a max-effort delivery who throws the heck out of the baseball. But, I do think most Sox fans have been aware that we need to keep an eye on Crain. As you suggest -- correctly, I think -- whether his injury was foreseeable or not, Ventura and Cooper had little choice other than to risk it. You play the game to win. Crain, when healthy, was having a monster season. Actually, an incredible season. And as far as the set-up guys go, early, other than some decent work by Lindstrom in relatively low-leverage situations, Crain was the only guy we could count on. Jones was awful early in the season; Thornton was what he now is - the ghost of Matt Thornton past. We needed Jesse out there. He did the job. Repeatedly. Even his teammates were in awe of what the guy was doing. Did "possibly" being overworked a bit (but I don't go so far as to say that he was ridden unreasonably hard) add to the likelihood of fatigue or injury? Maybe. It might have. But you can say something similar each time Chris Sale has to throw high leverage pitches in the 7th or 8th, or each of the many times that Addison Reed has a +20 pitch one inning. That's inherent in being a big league pitcher. It's all part of the mix and we only know for sure after the fact. But the Sox paid Jesse Crain to pitch. And the "overworking" - if there was any - happened while the Sox were still sniffing around .500, in any case long before anyone was truly worried about Jesse Crain being a prime trading chip. I can't blame Ventura, Coop, or Hahn one bit for Crain's fatigue/injury. Actually, I'm a lot more pissed about Robin bringing Peavy out for the 8th yesterday -- because HERE you have a guy coming off of an injury, with a good game already under his belt, and you unnecessarily and unreasonably put a then known trading chip at risk with absolutely nothing to be gained and with so much to lose! Good discussion Shack!

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 03:36 PM) Cubs listening on offers for Samardzija according to Rosenthal. Great Big deal. My BS sensor is going off big-time. Totally stinks of a certain Mr. Hahn being tested. Haven't some of you been in schools, fraternities, sports teams, business organizations, the military, and so on, where the "new guy" is tested every which way to see what he's got? One or more teams trying to lessen Hahn's leverage probably called the Cubs to inquire about Samardzija. Or perhaps Ephoyer started "shopping" Samardzija in order to mess with Hahn and the Sox a bit. In either case, the perception is that Peavy isn't the only top pitcher on the market -- there's Samardzija or Lee or Santana or the ghost of Walter "Big Train" Johnson. Lots of smoke and circus mirrors this time of year, folks. Lots of misinformation, disinformation, and noninformation. Lots of plain old BS. Stay the course, Rick. You've got some good chips. And most of your leverage is that you don't actually have to trade those chips. Sure, Peavy, Rios, and Ramirez can be had if we're excited about what you're giving us back. If not, then we'll see if someone else will. And if nobody does, then there's the off-season and next year's trade deadline. Test underway, Rick. Show 'em what you've got, kid! PS - That said ... MUST ... TRADE ... CRAIN. First one to offer us a fair PTBNL sliding scale deal gets one of the best "potential" difference making arms to be had for a stretch run. Sox aren't going to sign him for next year. Sure, wish he wasn't currently injured and we could have got more, but let's quit with the crying and get what we can.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 01:18 PM) I don't think you understand the game all that much if you a.) don't believe Crain was overworked and b.) if you don't think his being overworked led to him being placed on the DL. Wow. Talk about not understanding the game. ANY pitch can be a pitcher's last pitch. Sure, IF a pitcher is actually overworked (and I personally believe that Crain was borderline overworked earlier in this year), such overwork MIGHT increase the likelihood of significant injury, but all pitchers run the risk of serious injury each time they rock and fire the pill. One of the major orthopods -- perhaps Jobs or Andrews -- was asked about pitcher X being "unlucky" because they suffered a career derailing arm injury while guys like Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux just rolled along year after year after year. The Good Doctor stopped the questioner cold and said something like: "Guys like Ryan and Maddux are freaks ... NOBODY'S arm should be able to withstand the repetitive abuse of the inherently unnatural pitching motion ... it's a matter of time, a matter of luck, but arms are simply designed to fail." I think all Sox fans are upset about the incredibly poor timing of Crain being injured yet again (and it is "yet again" because he's had minor arm injury issues throughout his career). It sucks. Such poor timing. Like with Gavin Floyd earlier in the year, a relatively healthy Crain would have been a really nice trading chip for a rebuilding team. But it's another thing altogether to play the blame game for losing that trading chip. Crain was here to pitch for the White Sox. Period. He wouldn't have been considered a potentially valuable trading chip if he hadn't pitched for the White Sox (and pitched successfully). Blaming Ventura, or Cooper, or Hahn, or anyone for NOT having the ability to see into the future is ridiculous, UNLESS the alleged "overworking" was so patently extreme that no reasonable baseball people would have done anything remotely similar. And no way are Ventura, Cooper, or Hahn guilty of "overworking" Crain by that standard. Cry all you want about a lost opportunity, Marty, but blaming anyone is absolutely wrong. PS - To those who tell me I shouldn't bother "feeding a troll" ... I don't care. This post is less about arguing with Marty, than it is throwing out some thoughts about pitching and injuries.

QUOTE (beautox @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 09:23 AM) I agree, off of everything I've read, he is best suited for the hot corner and power is the last tool to develop. Cecchini is exactly what this line up and organization needs. Patient hitters that understand how to work the count, Sickels said his ceiling is a Bill Mueller / Kevin Youkillis type. Seeing how he is likely a year to a year and a half away that would give the Sox time to fully understand what they have in Conor Gillaspie. Gillaspie's season screams to me at least of a Michael Cuddyer like player[check out his 26 year old season in '05 and what Conor is projected to finish at]. Conor plays above average defense at 3B, that has a fair amount of value(1.5-2.5 maybe a 3WAR player), he has struggled against LHP but if the sox give him a clear understanding finishing this year and going into next that they're going to give him the full time job, he strikes me as the type of hitter to make the adjustments. The sox would be well served to target players like Cecchini and Adam Eaton. I hope the sox move Reed at the deadline or in the offseason to the d-backs for the likes of him and owings, all though Owings strikes me as a Khalil Greene clone. A young core of Eaton, Cecchini and Semien (whom some feel will wind up as a utility player)I personally feel has the tools to be more of a Marcus Giles type of bat in the MI and another recent comp due to his statistically-based age/level comp is Bernie Williams(HT:NorthSideSox72 for bringing that quote from Matt Garrioch to the table), excite me. Eaton could very well develop into a Denard Span clone in CF. Take those three and supplement them with Phegley provided he continues to hit like Jason LaRue (which I would consider a win for the sox development process), De Aza, Gillaspie, Viciedo if he continues to develop into El Caballo2.0 and this version of Beckham and . Of course this is all predicated on a lot of "Ifs" but with Quintana doing his best Andy Pettitte impersonation, Santiago looking like the love child of Liriano and Santana, Chris Sale being the best 13th overall selection since Paul Konerko or Manny Ramirez, John Danks being removed a full 18 months form his surgery and getting back to his old 3WAR ways, and one of Johnson or Rienzo producing 1.5WAR. I really like the sox chances competing next year as a dark horse for the wild card and going forward seeing how pitching peaks far earlier than hitting and the sox have young pitching Absolutely love the analysis. You're right -- many "Ifs" and many more "best case scenario comparisons." However, nothing you write is at all "off the wall." Plus, what an incredible shot in the arm it would be to this franchise if a certain Mr. Rick Hahn can somehow morph this decaying and low-ceilinged version of a franchise into something with hope and growth potential. The Sox fanbase always seems most energized when it can root for "home grown" (at least at the major league level) young talent, then augmenting that talent at the right time with the right "ringers."

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 25, 2013 -> 10:04 PM) Do you honestly think Hahn would say pitch him long because the other teams want to see that ? Peavy's injury was not arm related. It was a rib and he was off 4-6 weeks. No one is expected to pitch that long under those circumstances . If anything Hahn would be saying get him out of there. Protect our asset, protect the future of the franchise not let's showcase him longer because 1 or 2 more innings after being off for so long will prove he's a man to other GM's. EXACTLY! It was no secret that Peavy had been out over 4 weeks ... and that this was his second major league start (third start total) since an injury that prevented him from vigorous exercising. And yet he WAS "the man" ... pitching a full 7 (the generally accepted litmus test of an extended start) ... and he threw his last fastball at 92 on his 111th pitch that closed out the 7th (with many organizations rarely letting ANY starting pitcher even hit the 110 pitch mark). Jake proved he could be a counted-upon pro to any acquiring team in the midst of a pennant race. Horrendous decision. NOTHING to be gained by trotting him out in the 8th inning).

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jul 25, 2013 -> 09:23 PM) Was my thought exactly. You've got to read between the lines so often this time of year. We would have been good lawyers dude. Exactamundo! My thought the first moment I read the Keith Law comment. That nasty (and generally NON-objective concerning the Sox) Keith Law laying the foundation. And I AM a lawyer (although the "good" label might depend on who you ask)!

I detest all of the "X should be fired immediately if he does Y" comments. As we al know, baseball is a marathon and not a sprint. That said, I thought the decision to bring Peavy out for the 8th (and it doesn't matter one iota what Peavy himself wanted -- the manager is the boss and has final say) was absolutely horrendous. Epic horrendous. And, unfortunately, I see it as yet one more indication that RV offers nothing remotely special as a manager -- he has no special skills in in-game managing, his players don't seem to run through walls to play for him, and, as decisions like this tell me, he has no overall feel for managing the roster in a game within the overall context of the team's efforts to get better (meaning, be aware of your trading chips if you know they are, in fact, trading chips). I'm not in the Robin must go camp, but I think he's no better than "ordinary" as a manager and I couldn't care less if he were replaced. One more word about that "epically horrendous" decision. It doesn't matter what actually happened in the 8th! You judge baseball decisions at the time they are made as cost/benefit wise good or bad decisions. The results are what factually happened; the decision itself is good/bad before the result happened. And that applies to trades too. For instance, many would contend that KW made a good decision to trade for David Wells, even though the results were not good. After 7 innings, Peavy (a/k/a your prime trading chip) had just pitched an excellent game against a good offense on a tough day to pitch at The Cell. What? 7 full innings, 3 runs on only 3 hits (2 of them HRs), finishing with a strike out, a moderate standing-o, and hugs from his teammates. I turned off the TV because the man was definitely done. He clearly didn't have his best stuff, but Mr. Competitor managed to pitch a terrific game, and left the GM with a very solid line score to boast about. The bullpen was fresh -- with Lindstrom and (possibly) Reed to showcase as well -- what possible reason could there be to bring Peavy out for the 8th? Oh, we'll hear about Jake insisting, or Robin wanting to give his vet that mid-inning send-off, but, sorry folks, from any sort of reasonable cost/benefit analysis there was nothing whatsoever to be gained (and one can't forget we're talking about a "trading chip" (!!!) ) for bringing him in for 1, 2, or 3 more batters, compared to countless negative things that COULD happen. The worst thing that could happen was an injury (for needless additional pitching after you made your point). Didn't happen; praise the Lord. But the next worst thing actually did happen -- another HR, diminishing his overall line, reinforcing (perhaps) his lack of endurance. But I don't really care that much about the result of the decision itself, because the process -- the decision itself BEFORE the result played-out -- just sucked. No upside; all downside; and it trouble me -- GREATLY -- that our manager didn't instantly have the "feel" for that. This question is inherently subjective -- do YOU (in this case, ME) want RV back. I don't. And this lack of "feel" is a big part of why I don't. GO SOX (in this case, GO Mr. Rick Hahn - currently the most important man in the franchise).

Now that uber-competitor Jake has shown he has enough to beat a good offense on a day when the ball was flying out of the park (and, UBER-stupid of Ventura to let him go out in the 8th when there was absolutely nothing left to be gained and anything that could still happen could only be negative) ... I predict that it will be like dominoes, with the Sox making many trades in rapid succession: PEAVY and RAMIREZ to St. Louis -- despite the GM-speak coming out of GM Mo's mouth, the Sox and Cards match-up beautifully right now. RIOS to Texas DeAZA and LINDSTROM to Pittsburgh *If Peavy/Ramirez to St. Louis doesn't happen, then substitute a lesser deal where Ramirez still goes to St. Louis and Peavy and CRAIN (YES, CRAIN) go to Boston. And, someone WILL take a flyer on even an injured Crain - for a sliding-scale PTBNL - because nothing to lose and everything to gain for the Sox and the team who trades for *possibly* the best bullpen arm on the market. Make it happen, Rick. Go get us a slew of prospects no more than 1-2 years away (some earlier), including a strong shortstop who could stick there, a power-hitting corner IF type, some high avg and low k guys, and some arms with at least #2 or #3 starter potential. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!