Pumpkin Escobar

This teams problems started day 1 of the season. It wasn't assembled well out the gate and many of us knew it. Last season was a fantastic surprise to much of baseball and many of us. It was more a product of the others teams choking then it was us going out and dominating. We dumped a very talented and good, yet inconsistent SP and didn't fill his spot with anything of substance until a week ago. Many of us saw the writing on the wall with lots of the players who started on this team getting their "chance to play and prove themselves" but lots of us felt they just weren't going to amount to anything (Mr. Fields, Anderson, Mr. Owens, his name escapes me right now who we got from NY, etc). And it looks kind of accurate as most of those men are no longer on the club. I think this team lacked vocal leadership - outside of perhaps Thome. Even he though is very calm and relaxed and doesn't seem to be the kind of man who can light a fire. And when you're hitting .250 much of the season, it isn't like your bat is doing the talking. He played very well but he is no longer the offense monster he was. Dye fell apart. That killed. I dont know how he acted in the locker room but if it was anything remote to how he played - that couldn't have helped. The bullpen we said was awful from day 1. Lots of Jenks and Linebrink haters or less than happy fans. I am one and will happy to see them go. Hopefully for something moderate. I saw someone on ESPN doesnt think Jenks or thinks he commands as much as a Sherrill. Joy. Thats a boat load. Ozzie's act has worn thin I feel like with some of these veterans. Not so much worn thin as I should say has become ineffective. I think he has a lot of burden because this team is a .500 ballclub in a .500 division. A few more wins from a manager execution standpoint and who knows how this ends. I think this team needs some retooling. Huge influx of new blood. If we can move Rios for half of anything - i'd almost be ok with that. I thought and still think he can be a beast here. Or he should be a beast here based on his history but he looks terrible. My dreams moves would be to deal Jenks + anything for Adam Dunn or a Crawford. I'd sign some bullpen. I'd look to move Rios or even CQ (I know I'll take flack for that but it's not i think he is horrible - he is just an unecessary risk if he can command good value). I doubt theyd go for it but they have a position battle out there in LAA and Howie would look good at 2nd for us. In total it probably puts on 10-15 mil for next year unless you move big $ pieces but itd be well worth it. To sum up our problems this year...There were too many to list. #1 is poorly assembled (which is proven by our final product), #2 is our 4/5 SP was weak too weak to me #3 was the bullpen #4 Dye's collapse along with some other horrible hitters (Rios) and then lastly is directly on Ozzie but he deserves a good share of this crap.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Sep 1, 2009 -> 01:44 PM) Considering that the entire team tanked in 2007, that Frank was worthless after 2007, and that Rowand would've left as a free agent after 2007, keeping Rowand and Frank would've only benefitted the Sox in 2006. I think that a Thome/Anderson in 2006 and 2008 would've worked better in hindsight. If we had Frank instead of Thome last year, I don't think that we win the division. Ya but that is why there is the issue of too many variables. No one says Frank stays here after that 2006 season. That is why there are too many problems with reflecting on it. Rowand very well could've left but he had an incredible 07' season too and it would depend on the replacements for both. So its tough to compare. For 2006 - this team would've been better served with Thomas/Rowand in retrospect. It doesn't work that way though.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 1, 2009 -> 01:26 PM) Did you see Frank Thomas play in Toronto? Not that pretty. He wasn't even as good as Jim in 06, his last really productive year. The Thomas + Rowand against Thome debate is kind of silly because there are too many variables. Comparing their 2006 seasons on paper is easy. If you start saying one is so much better than the other, then you'll have to look at all the aspects of things. Thomas put up that season playing with a lesser offense, a worse ballpark, and a non-contending team. They both had very good seasons. The Thome trade happened and thats kind of the end of it. Right or wrong can't be changed at this point.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 1, 2009 -> 01:10 PM) See, that's the thing. You can't lump everyone together. Thome has been a great offensive player during his White Sox tenure, regardless of who played around him. You're baseball retarded if you'd rather have Everett, Rowand or Thomas of the last few years (because Thomas is quick??) than Thome in the DH spot. That whole scenario is your hindsight is 20/20. Had we known in 2005 that Thomas would stay healthy in 06' and put up similar numbers to Thome - then obviously keeping Rowand and Frank would look to have served us better on paper. Had you also told us it would take another 3+ years to find a centerfielder, then yes, we probably wouldn't have made those deals. Some see Kenny Williams using the 05' World Series to remove a "bad seed" in Thomas and being able to get away with it. Others feel he truly did what he felt was best for the organization so I can't fault him for the deal. Thome played well for us over the years. Obviously not having another ring and only one trip to the playoffs during his tenure here isn't what was the plan from the day the deal was made. To say it was a stupid move at the time is wrong and to put any blame on Thome is wrong. However, in hindsight. Things may have been better served with keeping Rowand and Frank. Assuming Frank would've produced as he did in 06' and then us being able to have replaced him after that. Unfortunately, that is not how things work.

I always love when people question or attack your "fanhood" because of things like this. Some people have the opinion to stick it out and hope for the best, others have the same right to be realistic and see the writing on the wall. Someone mentioned staying until mathimatically eliminated but then if you're using mathematics - 5% chance of making the playoffs isn't exactly numbers I'd bet the house on. This team folded. It doesn't mean people will not root for them, doesn't mean I won't hold onto the thread that they can pull some magic out and win it but it does mean I'll be a realistic human being and not get my hopes up of them delivering on any hopes/goals we had for them. The one thing I do wish - is that if they're goign to play with no heart from here on out, that they just rest some of the veterans and give some kids a chance. I always hate paying a baby millions of dollars to pout. People fault the idea of wishing a team would fold because who wants to essentially quit. It'd piss me off if our players quit on the season. I'm not saying we should but if we arent going to win out - I wouldn't be upset if we won 5-9 games this month and had a shot at getting another top ten pick. Sounds silly and what not but we have all seen what having a top ten pick can do for you. I wouldn't mind another Beckham if we aren't going to make a run at this thing. It's a distant second but just my preference.

I'd like to see us get Figgins and think we will. I'm not sure what they'd do with our infield but I'd s*** figgins or beckham to 2nd or if we move someone like Alexei (which I do not rule out) then you can play Becks/figgins both on that side of the infield. We need bullpen help. I don't care how they get it but they need to. Before Rios - I saw Dye here as DH, and the team getting Crawford for left - CQ to right. With Rios, his contract is what makes me void that thought. I'd really like to see us get a lefty power bat. An Adam Dunn is a name I see on here a lot. If not him, I honestly think we could net a Joey Votto for a package of things - I'm just not sure we have remotely enough to do it. Maybe Alexei + prospects or Jenks + prospects or something. With Alonso behind him - one of those two I would hope could be had and I would love to get either.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Sep 1, 2009 -> 05:04 AM) KW said if they didn't win the division that a bunch of guys would likely be gone. I don't think he was just blowing smoke. Here would be my makeover for the Sox making them younger, better,faster, and a lower payroll while maintaining the long ball threat. The guys i mention in the trades will just be the principles. PK to the Giants for Jonathon Sanchez. SF desperately needs a 1B and some right handed power.PK delivers both. Sanchez is a good young lefty that could be used as the #5 starter or moved to the pen.I prefer #5 AJ and some prospects to the Mets for Freddie Martinez. Look at the Mets catching situation,it's putrid. AJ, i think would be a crowd favorite in NY. FMart may have lost some value in the Mets eyes as he is only hitting at a .175 clip but he's still very talented and young. Trade Jenks and some pitching prospect(anyone but Hudson) to Houston for Hunter Pence. Sign Russell Branyan to a FA contract. Sign Justin Dusherer to a FA contract for the pen. The Sox lineup would look like: LF-Martinez CF-Rios RF-Pence 3B-Beckham SS-Ramirez 2B-Getz 1B-Branyan DH-Quentin C-Flowers bench-Nix,Viciedo,veteran C, Kotsay, Wise/Pods SP-Peavy,Buehrle,Danks, Floyd, Sanchez RP-Carrasco, Nunez, Pena, Thornton, Linebrink, Duscherer I haven't seen any replies so if I repeat stuff - which I am sure I am - then my bad. I don't think any of those trades make too much sense. Maybe dealing for Sanchez but he isn't someone I want. If he didn't throw that no-no, I'm not sure he even remained in San Fran. If he would learn some control I think he could be a very decent starter but right now he isn't very good as an NL pitcher. People were a little down on Peavy coming to the AL and our park - take a guy who has a career ERA of like 5 and put that in the AL. Bad idea. His stuff is good but no thanks. I am assuming you meant Fernando Martinez. Not happening. They wouldn't put him in a trade for Johan, CC, etc...but theyre going to give him up for AJ? No chance. He couldve hit .000 and Minaya would avoid the deal just so he didn't look stupid. Pence - like the idea but I think theyre going to explore dealing their expensive guys like Lee, Oswalt, Valverde before their cheap/young talent. No interest in Branyan. He is having a great season and I'm glad he finally touched on some of that potential that Cleveland raved about back in the day but this guy has done nothing to show he is going to ever do it again. It'd be a bad bad contract if we paid what he'll ask for for any length of time. Duch I dont mind. I'm all for dealing the players you mentioned but there has to be better or more realistic options. Same with the FA signings.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 31, 2009 -> 11:57 PM) If the Dodgers offer Thome arbitration and he declines he becomes a much less desirable free agent since any team that signs him would have to give up a pick all the more incentive for Thome to accept. But beyond that do you really think the Dodgers would risk having to pay a 39 year old pinch hitter $13M? I don't. I am not so sure I agree. In theory it makes sense but until we see this thing shape out it's tough to comment. A week ago people all raved about how Thome and his OPS were great. So if he says he'll take less of a salary since it'll cost the signing team a pick to get a chance to DH then I would bring him on. Jim Thome at DH for a team like Seattle, KC, Tampa, etc. Some of those teams may need to shuffle money but I'll take Jim Thome's potential production at a 5million tag and give up my late first round or second round pick (for those teams who aren't in the bottom 15 picks - like KC). Maybe I just value him higher then O.Cab - who we saw that status affect his signing this offseason. I am just making an observation on things. Not debating it's unlucky but I think there is a definite possiblity he gets offered arbitration if he really wants to play.

QUOTE (knightni @ Aug 31, 2009 -> 11:55 PM) What's hurtful about giving a guy a shot at the playoffs? Jose's problem has been that he's too sensitive. Maybe this move to the NL will bring back his confidence. The whole Contreras blurb in my messages was in relation to my early post about dfa or cutting him...Before we found out he was dealt. Those comments are not to be interpreted with regards to the trade.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 31, 2009 -> 11:49 PM) Thome made $13M this year meaning he'd get about that in arbitration if he were to accept. Jim Thome is not worth $13M at the point in his career, to this team in this economy. They wouldn't even have thought about offering him arb. Thats what I figured but I think Jim wants to play next season and I think the Dodgers can get away with offering him arbitration because I don't see Thome valuing the 13 million and 100 at bats over a chance to get 450 at bats. Who knows...

QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 31, 2009 -> 11:37 PM) I don't think that his nationality had anything to do with it. If the Sox DFA'd a veteran American or Canadian player at the end of August, they'd look equally bad. No doubt we'd look bad regardless but it is tough to argue that we have a good perception from Cuban ballplayers and a good relationship with one of the biggest agents who represents those players. Having done something to Contreras would've harmed that relationship I feel and wouldnt have been worth the risk. With so many American ballplayers - we'd have looked bad but I don't see it as hurtful. Just my two cents. We can agree to disagree.

Was it safe too assume that due to the climate of the economy we would've elected not to offer Thome arbitration? I believe Thome is Type-A status and I am a little surprised we dealt that luxury away unless we just realy are that classy of an organization where we felt he was owed a chance - at the expense of draft picks for us since I do not believe Mr. Fuller was a first round or even 5th round talent. Just curious if that was what was going on there? I'd assume the Dodgers will offer him arbitration because it's gotta be a 0% chance he'd accept it if he wants to play full-time next season.

QUOTE (jamesdiego @ Aug 31, 2009 -> 11:26 PM) Contreras has given ALOT to this organization, glad they were able to find him another place to play. To cut him would of made us look very bad, glad you're not the GM. I could've elaborated. My comment was being typed before he got dealt and I was touching on him this season. His play this season was/is awful. He did a tremendous amount in the past for us but there have been plenty of guys in organizations over the years where eventually it becomes "business" and time to move on. They did the right thing in keeping him aboard but had he not been one of our Cuban players - I am not so sure we wouldn't have seen him demoted or DFA'd. I think from a business standpoint we have a good thing with our relationship and our perception with cuban ballplayers. Which is nice seeing as we struggle to land other top notch latin players. That was my point. Without a doubt to me his performance has sucked and I wouldn't have had him on our roster to do the damage he did to this team with his play. His games sucked the life out of this team IMO. What he did in the past for us and what I mentioned above is what kept him here. That and I like to think this organization has some class.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Aug 31, 2009 -> 11:05 PM) No better way to display class as an organization than to cut two guys who have pitched through injuries. I wish we could cut them both but you're right. Linebrink being cut serves us no purpose other then to send some form of message or something. Contreras sucks. He deserves to be cut and doesn't belong on a major league roster. The reason he'll remain is because of our relationship with his agent and how stupid it would be to embarrass him and have it reflect poorly on a goldmine relationship we have with cuban ballplayers and their desire to come here.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Aug 28, 2009 -> 03:15 PM) Thome is hitting .167 off CC in 24AB. He has 4 home runs and 11k's. Well there you have it. I thought it was worse then 4-24...5-40 wasnt way off though.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 28, 2009 -> 03:07 PM) Thome does nothing but hit homeruns off of CC. The stat is kind of ridiculous, he just annihilates CC or strikes out Ya buts its not very good. He is like 5-40 with 5 homers. Something awful...I'll go look it up.

I just see us making some outside the box moves if this thing faulters. Kenny doesn't like to look bad and some of these guys are making him look that way. I'm not sure entirely what route we'd go - but I feel like it'll have speculation everywhere and we'll be linked to every name and we'll all be captivated by it all offseason on here. hah I can see it already.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Aug 28, 2009 -> 07:40 AM) The Marlins signed Hanley to an extension prior to 2008. He makes ~$8M next year and in '11, $15M in '12, $15.5M in '13 and $16M in '14. He also has a NTC. And the Marlins won't be trading him. I understand the allure, but people gotta stop bringing him up. You know. As much as I hate to say it (because I agree I see it impossible that he gets dealt) but everyone said the exact same thing with Miguel Cabrera. The one fundemental flaw is they do not operate a high payroll. They'll keep him around to open up their stadium and then 1-2 years after he will be out the door.

I'd love to get Beckhams ex-teammate at Georgia Josh Fields into our bullpen.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Aug 27, 2009 -> 03:56 PM) I meant as Thome's replacement at DH. I love Dunns power. I'd love to see him on the Southside.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Aug 27, 2009 -> 03:45 PM) As mentioned before, Dunn would be nice. Dunn would be great but not both he and Thome. I know Dunn has been great for BA this year but he is usually much worse. Him hitting .220 and Thome at .250 isn't monsterous. Drawing a walk or striking out doesnt drive the run home. I am on the comment page and dont want to backtrack but I believe you or someone else mentioned that with Rios here it seems more likely Thome returns and I think thats true. Only because he is a lefty. Dye still makes more sense if one had to come back because he can DH, we can run him out in RF if we're desperate and he can play 1st too. Thome can Dh. Yuck.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Aug 27, 2009 -> 03:23 PM) I love when people make these types of statements without thinking them through. AJ played in the previous 7 games, including the night before that day game. Giving him the day off before starting our road trip was fine and not unexpected. And that was Lillibridge's 1st start IIRC since being recalled. Basically Nix has not had a game off since Getz's injury. All the other regular players being in the lineup in addition to those two does not constitute "the 'B' squad". Come on. I said underneith those statements that I am embarrassed because we don't have other options. And you're acting as though it is the first time that has happened. What was it the 4th or 5th game of the season. The guys were dead tired so he runs out Lillibridge, Corky Miller, Anderson nd Betemet? He does it constantly. The point is run Castro out there - that is fine. But have Lillibridge, Kotsay, Wise when he is around, etc. in one at a time or something. You can compensate for one weak hitter. The NL does it all the time. When you get into 2-3-4 guys in an AL playoff hunt. Thats where the problem comes in.

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Aug 27, 2009 -> 03:09 PM) Trade Jenks while he still has value. It's gonna be Thome or Dye; I think Konerko has a few years still, doesn't he? And right of refusal? I'd say s***: keep Pods, he's cheap and he's been awfully good since coming back. Oh God and Jose: see ya! IMO it's between Thome and Dye and if I had to guess they'll unload Dye. Keep AJ for God's sake; he's still hitting and one of the smartest catchers around. I'm glad you touched back on the Jenks thing. I've been for dealing him but we missed our boat. We could've sold high on him. Didnt. Now closers are less valuable in trades, teams are reluctant to deal prospects, Jenks stands to make a lot of money and the teams will have health concerns and now guys like Papelbon are potentially available too. Jenks value will be moderate this offseason. If you can get a Bourn for him, or package up something for a Crawford - please do it. One thing I doubt but that could be appealing is making a package around him for Melky or Cano. With Rivera getting up there - why not?

He has decent stuff. He just has a flat fastball and not the best control. If any of you saw or can go back and watch the game....He threw like a ridiculous pitch to someone at 97...it looked like a 2 seamer or a screw. Obviously it wasnt because A) no one can do that at that velocity and B) Its Tony Pena. I cant remember who he struck out or if it was the final strike to that batter but it was wicked. Clearly a gun gaffe but I'd love to see that more if it was real.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Aug 27, 2009 -> 01:15 PM) LOL. 14 to be exact. I don't care how many titles they won. To get to October that many times in a row is the most impressive feat I've ever witnessed as a sports fan of almost 19 years. I've got a couple Braves fans as friends from college and they rave about that but they said they wouldve been more then happy with half the trips and 3-4 rings. Because of how they did it and how many times they did it - people remember them. It's rare to accomplish what they did and its amazing but odds of it happening for us are slim. I'd agree with them. I'd rather go 7-8 times in 14 years and win 3-4 and be competitive the other year.s