kitekrazy

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 27, 2015 -> 02:03 PM) I very strongly disagree with the concept that you should not judge the GM based on the results of their decision rather than how the decision looked at the time. It's an excuse that leaves us with a losing franchise. If a person makes decisions that constantly look correct at the time and blow up in their face every single time...then it is absolutely time to reevaluate that decision making process and that's where we are right now. The assumptions behind those moves are simply incorrect. We're ignoring defense. We're ignoring fundamentals. We're continuing to push people too aggressively. We thought we had a team (both this year and in 2013) that was ready to compete and we spent a whole lot of money based on that assumption. We are totally failing to understand this roster, this team, or how to build a competitive team. If every decision looks fine and they completely implode, then we need to reevaluate how we're judging these decisions. Either that, or every decision we made did work out, and the coaching staff completely failed in their job of getting those players ready to go. Take your pick. I'm going with "both". neither is not an option unless you're ok with winning 45% of your games. Rumor has it he doesn't have the control like most GMs. These things you mention are similar to KW running the show.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 27, 2015 -> 08:37 AM) My pick would be Don Cooper. I don't think he'll be part of the next managing regime, unless he is the manager himself, so might as well give him that chance now. He deserves it after all these years in the organization There's a good chance he's a disaster, which is fine by me. No different then what is going now. At best, his fiery personality could light a fire under this team. His personality will be good to grab some much needed headlines even when we stink. Keep us somewhat relevent. Similar to Ozzie in that regard. Maybe he should be fired as pitching coach. I'll take Ventura over Cooper. In some professional sports when you criticize the fan base like Cooper does, you are shown the door.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ May 27, 2015 -> 02:02 PM) Ramirez needs to sit for a couple days. He's on pace for -1.2 fWAR and his defensive metrics are the worst they've been since his rookie year. Sit his ass down and tell him that nobody on the team is guaranteed a spot every day no matter how long they've been here. Isn't he due for a new contract? Odd that many players "peak" instead of regressing like this.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 26, 2015 -> 10:28 PM) I've become jaded. Because whenever a new guy arrives, he seems to always start slowly, at least the hitters (Robertson, Duke were on fire and quite effective out of the gates). But if we bring up a hitter or acquire a hitter, it seems to me he always starts horrifically. I'm not talking about a home run on opening day for LaRoche; I'm talking the first 25 at bats. Some of the well known names usually come from the NL and they can't adjust to the AL. I think it would be different if they were younger players.

Mike Schmidt: Today's hitters don't want much help http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mike-schmidt-...54128--mlb.html This is a great read.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 26, 2015 -> 04:11 PM) Defense has been killing the ERA of the pitchers, as there have been just an insane amount of plays that haven't gone as errors that have resulted in big innings for the opposition. Last night's first inning might be the best example of this that you'll ever see. Defense has never been a priority under Kenny Williams and we still see it. The difference in this Sox teams this century was the defenses were better under Ozzie.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ May 26, 2015 -> 03:30 PM) My word! Would you look at those Kansas City Royals! Averaging nearly 32K this year after that splendid run they had through the postseason last year. Their average attendance last year was only 24K, reflective, of course, of the years and years of losing prior to last season. But lo and behold, it turns out that their fan base enjoyed all of the excitement that a solid postseason brings, and have signed up this season in hopes for more. Sounds like another fan base we know from 2006, doesn't it? And to add to the good news for fans of the Royals, their team seems well poised to do the unthinkable - make it to the playoffs in consecutive seasons! Now how about that! And if they do so, and give their fans another thrill, they will continue to build upon and expand their fan base. Yep, yep, yep - that's how it works. That's what a little winning will do for you! As for the Sox they won a World Series and it raises the bar for expectations.

QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ May 25, 2015 -> 06:26 PM) If the attendance data you are referencing support your statement, then the Sox should move. Perhaps Chicago simply cannot support two teams? I tend to believe this. It's not the Cubs so much as having to compete with Wrigley Field and the surrounding atmosphere.

QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ May 25, 2015 -> 05:34 PM) Your posts in this thread have been wonderfully insightful, and have helped me to crystallize my own thoughts on this topic. I'd just like to add another item about the Reinsdorf-owned Sox: Not only has the franchise not won enough, it doesn't believe in the value of building a minor league system. That is an organizational philosophy straight from the top; JR doesn't believe in making premium investments in prospects who haven't "proven" anything yet. So, we take the cheapest route possible in building our system. It isn't a coincidence that the only sustained period of success during the Reinsdorf era came from the efforts of the Himes regime. Instead, we rely on dumpster diving -- looking for bargain free agents and hoping they pan out. Usually, they don't; with 2005 being the glaring exception. Part of the way fans develop a passion for their teams is by following their minor league prospects as they develop. It gives the fans a greater sense of identification with the players as they roll through the system, and the bond with them is strong once they reach the majors. Of course, we have had relatively few prospects worth following the past decade. Many of those who have developed have been traded away. In sum, we don't believe in building from within, and we won't pay top prices for premier free agents. What is left is the steaming pile of mediocrity that is the JR Sox. Like I said in an earlier post, I can no longer support this franchise with this owner. It's difficult to say this, as I've loved the Sox with all my heart since 76. But the bottom line is that this is entertainment. This is not life and death; it's baseball. And if following this team makes me miserable because I fundamentally disagree with several key principles upon which it is run, the onus is on me to change my behavior. I certainly do not expect JR to change. I live in Dallas, and my son loves the Rangers. For years I've tried to steer him towards the Sox, but he finds their games "horrifyingly boring". He always has. Even though the Rangers suck, he'd rather watch them lose 10-7 than watch the Sox win. I'm learning to embrace his thought process, and enjoy the game of baseball with his team rather than worry about the perpetual incompetence of my own. This is a great post as well.

QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ May 25, 2015 -> 10:13 PM) I'd agree with you if we had an organization that could properly identify talent. You nailed it. Prospects are useless to this organization. They will unlearn anything about baseball from their previous organization.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ May 24, 2015 -> 04:45 PM) I look forward to the day when the bandwagon fills up again! Are you kidding me? That means we are WINNING once again. That is the goal, in case you've forgotten. Every team has it's bandwagon fans. Who the F cares as long as the team is winning. Geez, why is that so hard for you to understand! Some people have this fantasy that there are trophies for certain types of fans. When you go buy a ticket they don't care what type of fan you are.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ May 23, 2015 -> 07:16 AM) HA! Oh, I have, and with very good reason. The results of Jerry Reinsdorf's 35 years at the helm of this franchise have been a disaster. He has only one season during his tenure as owner that he can point to and really claim to be an exciting and successful one - '05. During the other 34 years, the team only won the division a measly four times, and the playoff appearances those four years were anything but memorable. And then we wonder why the fan base is dormant. Why we have to operate like a small market team because the team Reinsdorf routinely runs out there is not postseason caliber. That is really a horrible record of futility, no matter how you look at it. No sustainable success for three and a half decades now. Meanwhile, over the years he's publicly fought with the likes of Harry Caray, Carlton Fisk and Larry Himes while remaining unapologetically loyal to people like Kenny Williams, Buddy Bell, Robin Ventura, etc. He dumps Harry Caray and WGN in the '80s in favor of SportsVision. He hires Hawk Harrelson to be GM and ends up losing Tony LaRussa in the process. He blackmails the state of Illinois to build him a new stadium while also providing him with a sweetheart lease deal, and then turns around and directs the construction of an abysmally designed ballpark. He fires Himes who drafted Frank Thomas, Ventura, Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, and who traded for Lance Johnson and Wilson Alvarez, claiming Himes got the team from "point A to point B", but he didn't think he could get the team to "point C", i.e., the World Series. In his judgement, Ron Schueler was the guy who could do that. How'd that work out for us! It could have happened in '94, except the Chairman chose his burning desire to break the players' union over the World Series aspirations of his team and fans that year. Terry Freaking Bevington! White flag trade. The list goes on and on and on with this failure. This franchise is in desperate need of new leadership, strategy and vision from the very top. That is very clear. Jerry Reinsdorf has been the owner now for 35 years, and he holds claim to a very unimpressive record of achievement. Yes, the WS championship in '05 was amazing, but that does and cannot mask the other 34 years. The White Sox need new ownership. It's that simple. I think they lost a generation or two of fans because of that. There is a Sox fan who is researching the decline of the fan base.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 23, 2015 -> 08:48 AM) Maybe this is the old man in me speaking, but if baseball makes you miserable, you are doing it wrong, and you need to step away. Sports is supposed to be something to get enjoyment out of and forget your troubles for a few hours. If it is stress, you are missing the point. Judging by many posters here, there are more than a few of you in this spot. Being a Sox fan isn't the most important thing in life. If it is causing you angst, find something else that brings you joy. I am a Sox fan because even a bad Sox game is better than a bad day at work, on the golf course, or just about anything else. I love baseball and I love my team. If your life changes because of a baseball team, your priorities are all wrong. Baseball and the White Sox are two different things. I use to love those Joliet Jackhammer games. Where the Diamondbacks play is a great experience. Now that there is Summer baseball with future Sox players I will be going to them. I live a few miles from Camelback Ranch. It's fun to brag about that. I don't even watch the NFL anymore unless it's the Colts. Over hype and lack of journalists killed it for me. I believe this team will never go forward until the organization is gutted out. The 25 men on the field is not the biggest problem. On the plus side the Sox signed one of the most desired GMs named Rick Hahn. We have no clue how much power he has. Probably not much because Buddy Bell needs to go and many of the minor league instructors.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 23, 2015 -> 05:04 AM) Interesting timing for this thread. I think this thread would have been more apropos after the 2012 season. Much of what the OP stated he admired about the Cubs has been happening, perhaps on a slightly smaller scale, or with a slightly different recipe, on the South Side. Rick Hahn has been purging the organization of the ghosts of the failed '06-'12 seasons. The old stench has been aired out and swept out. What we're seeing now is a breath of fresh air relative to the last 5 years. I'm not a fan of RV or his coaching staff (outside of Cooper), but with Sale, Q, Rodon, Abreu, Eaton, et al, I think there is much to be excited about. While I'll concede I agree with your point in regards to the Cubs baseball operations, I think you're underestimating the changes that have been occurring in plain view with the White Sox. Anyways, I guess the morale of the story is hang in there; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised in short order. I'm the OP and I only pointed out the Cubs look for experienced management. They only thing I would admire is if I were a Cub fan they have a exciting team young team to watch. While things look great for them, in perspective outside of the Cardinals their division has gotten worse. It's like Ventura's first year. The Sox weren't better the other teams got worse. The only organization I truly admire is the Cardinals. Does any other organization come close to them in the past 20 years? They can let guys like Puljols go and still win.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ May 22, 2015 -> 04:42 PM) Casual fans are gone for good at this point. All you here on radio and TV is a Cubs love fest 100%. If someone has only so much disposable income they are going to the North side not the South side. Sox have a uphill battle at this point, I do not think they will ever win with JR as owner. I have said this before, but the blind loyalty is killing this franchise. They wont. Blackhawk fans suffered until Bill Wirtz died. I'm a life long Colts fan and after the late 70's they turned into the worst sports franchise in history, the Bob Irsay died and his son has turned it around. He made a mistake of letting Bill Polian's son get too involved, similar to something Reinsdorf would do. I guess JR doesn't like to fire people or change things if the results are similar or worse.

QUOTE (South Sider @ May 22, 2015 -> 04:36 PM) Frankly, and I know this is going to seem blasphemous to some, but I think Sox fans overall are watching the transformation of the franchise on the north side and wishing it was us. I haven't completely given up hope on the Reinsdorf regime or this team and its future, but our tanking of the last couple of seasons would sure seem a lot tolerable if it was overseen by Epstein/Hoyer. I know I wanted Theo on the south side but knew it wouldn't happen because of JRs loyalty to KW. Why didn't we make a push for Maddon? Because of JR/KWs loyalty to RV. Maddon, if given the choice, would have taken the Cubs job anyway. Their tanking has produced what appears to be a team that is going to be playing an exciting brand of baseball, much more so then the White Sox have been. I hate to pile the pressure on the Sox even more, but they REALLY need to start finding a way to consistently play exciting baseball. Exciting, but not necessarily dominating baseball. Because, and again this is going to sound blasphemous to some (I'm not a Cub hater like I used to be pre-2005), but I won't fault the casual fan for opting to watch Cubs baseball instead of the Sox. I won't ever switch sides but if it gets to the point where the Sox keep playing like we're used to, and the Cubs keep getting better and better, you better believe I'd rather spend the little time I have to watch baseball games watching an invigorating brand of baseball then the same lethargic baseball that we're getting used to. I'll always be a Sox fan first and foremost. If the teams met in the World Series, it's Sox all the way. But this is just the harsh reality for some. The Cubs represent the city I am from too, and they have done literally everything with their baseball operations that I wish the Sox had done. It's hard for me to not respect what they've done up to this point. Not me. This wasn't meant to be a Sox vs. Cubs thread. I pointed out that the Cubs organization tends to value experienced leadership where this organization doesn't. The Sox use the fan favorite Rolodex. Interesting that the Cubs when using experienced managers like Baker and Pinella have failed miserably and Ozzie who was groomed outside the organization managed a World Series.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 22, 2015 -> 11:19 PM) You may be right (lyrics, Billy Joel). ... I was thinking that baseball hasn't done the Sox any favors either with the unbalanced schedule. I can't see the Sox becoming an organization that can beat those Central teams consistently. We're always going to be the big-city team that the other teams in our division want to beat. Sox are so nonchalant and noncompetitive (blah might be a better word) against its own divisional brethren that a .500 record any year overall in the Central would be a helluva record. I can't believe baseball cow-towed to Steinbrenner who wanted to play the Red Sox 19 times a year and agreed to this bulls*** unbalanced schedule. Sox would fare much better playing all the teams, not the boring Central Division squads. Sox fans are smart ... who the hell wants to go see the Twins, Royals and Indians all the time? Not our paying customers. How does that define smart? Thee teams were considered major rivals in certain decades. The Sox were the Twin's b**** during the Manuel era and the Indians' b**** during the Lamont era.

QUOTE (Tex @ May 22, 2015 -> 03:50 PM) You never would have lasted as a Sox fan in the 60s through the turn of the century. I'm a decade short of that. As a kid in the late 60's I was a Cub fan.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ May 22, 2015 -> 04:10 PM) You are the one throwing a 40% drop off in soxtalk membership compared to 05-08. Why don't you go ahead and prove it. This site is thriving despite a huge drop in messageboard usage everywhere. Not only thriving, expanding, growing, and evolving. This is the only thing I enjoy about being a fan. I'm more of a fan of Sox Talk than the White Sox. That other site has regressed compared to here. Some of their threads can be quite lame.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 22, 2015 -> 05:13 PM) Good luck, Cubs have always been for the bandwagon/front runner/fair weather crowd. QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ May 22, 2015 -> 05:20 PM) A team that hasn't won a WS in 100 years and last made the playoffs 8 years ago has a bandwagon? Not a good example. LOL! That reply didn't have a lot of thought behind it. I would think Sox fans fit the bandwagon/front runner/fair weather crowd blueprint more than Cub fans. These senseless fan labels mean nothing at a ticket gate. Maybe Don Cooper could increase attendance by calling out fans for being bandwagon/front runner/fair weather fans. Sorry dude they don't hand out trophies to fans.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 22, 2015 -> 10:05 PM) Some great posts on this thread I can't even comment on all of them. Great stuff, folks. I will say it's going to be weird when we have a GOOD team again. I mean the team has shown signs the last few years, the nights the Sox bring it. The overall record hasn't been god-awful, but the team has been (unfortunately not Joe) maddening the last few seasons. Even Ozzie's last team or two was bizarre in the way it lost games. I have to be a fan, it's in my blood, but again ... I'm gonna be so happy when the team gets legitimately good again. Sorry to say that WILL NEVER happen UNTIL the defense improves (to go with pitching as least as good on paper as this year's club). It just won't. When you have a crappy defensive team you are going to be .500 at best. The way things are going I doubt that. I think that will only change when other people run this organization.

I'm almost there. I don't see any future in rooting for this organization. My Sox badge and decoder ring may have to be taken away. Farm system - what has Buddy Bell and scouting really done to keep their job. It seems some of these youngsters are clueless about baseball on things that high schoolers could do. They can't run the bases. If they can field they can't hit then when they can't field they can't hit either. Trading for prospects is the worst thing they could ever do since when they become a Sox they do the bad things in baseball. Instruction has to be terrible. This organization hasn't been able to develop a catcher. You can't win a division if a Tyler Flowers is your catcher. Hitting - I still believe the AL and NL are two different leagues. Will 2nd time be the charm of taking a NL player and transitioning them to DH. There's not enough inter league play where they can transition to be an immediate success. I've always wondered if the stadium contributes to players losing any discipline of situational hitting. Is this even taught in the minors? This team could probably go through a dozen hitting coaches and the results are the same. So maybe scouting is to blame even with free agents. Ownership - The 'inbred' mentality of keeping it in the family needs to go. I guess that will only change when people in the organization pass away. The north side takes chances on experienced managers. The results are not always great but they think it's a priority. In this century we've had Jerry Manuel, at least Ozzie was groomed into management from another organization. Even when Ventura was hired I thought it was a WTF decision. Who is the next former Sox retread? Fans are not buying it. If they fired Ventura and got Gardenhire I don't know if there would be much difference but at least it would be someone different and spark some interest. They won a WS during the KW era but it seems this team was more exciting during the Schuler era. They had untouchable prospects. Mark B. was a product of the Schuler and his fundamentals on the mound can't be touched by most of the kids today. Before the internet era we had to drive back home because there were no tickets. If we could only have that strike season back. This is one of the most boring teams to watch and it's been that way for a while. Even Stone mentioned that on the SCORE last year. Our stud young players like Sale and Abreu did not get poisoned by the farm system. Maybe they realize that and don't want to ruin Rodon. If he is better off with Coop then shouldn't Coop's philosophy be spread to the minors? I don't know if that is the case. The loyalty thing stops short of the fan base. Why don't they raid successful organizations when it comes to coaching, scouting and philosophy? It's like watching a movie over and over hoping this time the end will be different.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 21, 2015 -> 08:31 PM) If this season tanks, it's going to be quite difficult for the organization to get fans excited again heading into a season. I don't think we can assume they will spend a fortune every offseason like they just did. I'm not too far from losing all allegiance to the Sox and rooting for someone else. Real changes need to be made well above the 25 man roster. The only way those changes are made is if death is involved. Who has that kind of patience anymore? Changes are then replaced with former Sox retreads.

A dog returns to its vomit.

Sox need a catcher in the worst way.