Thad Bosley

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:23 PM) You can't win with him. He thinks the only exciting season since Reinsdorf owned the team is when they won the WS. Any other season, including playoff appearances....a boring failure. He did move the bar and say consecutive playoff appearances are exciting. So get this, in his world winning 102 games, and losing the WS in 7 games, boring, but the next year, if you did that and then snuck into the WC with an 86 win season and get trounced in one game, far more exciting because it's consecutive. He's probably the only guy who when Javy Vazquez got lit up in the 2008 playoffs, blamed Reinsdorf. In the 35 years of Reinsdorf's regime outside of our magical 2005 season - 35 years, mind you - just four playoff appearances and a measly four playoff wins across those four appearances. So I stand corrected - the excitement at 35th & Shields has been in great abundance during the past nearly four decades.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:23 PM) You can't win with him. He thinks the only exciting season since Reinsdorf owned the team is when they won the WS. Any other season, including playoff appearances....a boring failure. He did move the bar and say consecutive playoff appearances are exciting. So get this, in his world winning 102 games, and losing the WS in 7 games, boring, but the next year, if you did that and then snuck into the WC with an 86 win season and get trounced in one game, far more exciting because it's consecutive. He's probably the only guy who when Javy Vazquez got lit up in the 2008 playoffs, blamed Reinsdorf.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:09 PM) You are so far off of the rails with your argument at this point, it's getting to be almost impossible to follow you… First off, the franchise is not going to be sold.. It will be in the hands of JR until he passes on, and will be left to his heirs.. the investors are so remotely not considering selling that countless interviews have them totally in the dark as to how it would actually transpire… Forget your fantasy land Disney scenario of the Sox somehow magically re-creating 2005.. How many more years of failure is it going to take for you to be convinced that how they got their in 05', is simply ineffective at this point? The Sox have been "all in" since 2006, and except for backing into the playoffs in 08, and going out in the first round.. have absolutely nothing to show for it.. with the moving of Sale and/or Q in the offseason, the Sox have an unprecedented opportunity in a sellers market to possibly reload with established ML'ers. but also prospects who could be a part of the franchise for years to come.. Yes, nothing is guaranteed.. But the way I see the Sox don't have anything to lose at this point..especially considering they are mid market payroll, mid market revenue, still suffering the effects of a neglected farm, and an octogenarian owner, and a roster filled with talent, that if traded.. can only result in parallel moves…. But apparently you seem to be content (or maybe oblivious) to the fact that the fan base is seriously eroding, attendance at or near the bottom, rock bottom TV ratings, and an ungodly terrible record against the teams they absolutely need to be beat, to be considered a contender… THIS!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:03 PM) So there is only one way to rebuild and that is by trading everyone? What would you call the moves the Tigers made last season or the Red Sox a couple seasons prior or the Rangers after the 2013 season? I guess they just retooled because none of those teams traded EVERYONE of value from their major league roster. I guess retooling can work out pretty well too. I don't know if you've noticed, but retooling has not even come close to working out with this particular roster. And unfortunately, the retooling you've been suggesting wouldn't work either. Retooling isn't just about upgrading over the subpar players on the current roster and then claiming success. Retooling is getting players of a certain caliber that collectively can join the core and enable them to legitimately compete for a chance for the postseason. Adding Wieters, Volquez, Fowler and Moreland to this current roster does not get this team to that level. That's just the 2017 version of adding Melky, LaRoche, Robertson and Duke.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 07:29 AM) Wieters replaces the Avila/Navarro combo. $10MM vs $6.5MM or $3.5MM increase. Fowler is not getting $15MM AAV. I could see $10-12MM AAV over 3 or 4 years. Let's say $12MM vs $5MM they paid AJ this year or $7MM increase. Even if Volquez gets $7MM his salary combined with Shields and Fulmer amounts to $18MM or $2MM less than what they paid Shields and Danks this year. Moreland isn't getting $8MM AAV unless maybe it's only a one year deal. Even then, consider Pedro Alvarez as a decent comp from last season and he got 1/$5.75MM last offseason. I think Moreland gets $6MM AAV over 3 years vs ~$1MM they spent for DH this year. Add it all up and that's an approx. $13.5MM increase. I realize other players are due a raise because of arbitration, etc. but still that only bumps total payroll up $15-20MM from this season, no where near $40MM. I would expect some of those increases to be offset by losing guys like Turner, Latos and Avi and not buying out guys like Albers. Which team currently earmarked for the postseason would we presumably supplant next year if the Sox made all of the acquisitions you suggest above? Who do we leap frog over, given the starting point is the current roster, and then adding the guys you want?

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 05:39 AM) 1. Wieters will end this season with more than 400 PA and had nearly 300 last season. Every player comes with an injury risk but he appears to be past his Tommy John at this point. 2. In the past 6 seasons Fowler's lowest WAR has been 1.5 in his one season with the Astros. Even if he does what he did with the Astros that's still a big upgrade from Jackson/Schuck. 3. I still think the Royals cut Volquez lose but even if they don't it shouldn't be that hard to find someone to fill the #5 SP role (Fulmer?). Even an ERA in the 4.75-5.25 range as you suggest is a massive upgrade from what this team has gotten this season from that spot. The combined ERA of Danks/Shields/Ranaudo is just below 8! 4. Moreland is a career 765 OPS. Even if he dips to 725-750 that's still an upgrade over the combined numbers put up this season by Avi/Sands/Morneau. Also, I have him slotted in the 6 hole behind Fowler, Eaton, Abreu, Frazier, and Melky. He typically bats 6 or 7 for the AL best Texas Rangers. What are you trying to compete for with these proposed acquisitions? The wildcard? Because even adding these players does not put us in Cleveland's class. They would still be the superior team by far. No, it's time. Time to tear her up and move in a different direction. Glad to hear the news Dick Allen shared strongly suggesting Sox management is preparing to do just that.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 07:19 PM) Time will tell. I'm just looking forward to very few complaining on these boards once they do move forward with the rebuild. I'm not sure what some people are going to do if they can't complain any more. They are certainly not going to miss what's resulted from the retooling approach of recent years. It's been a brutal several years lately to be a White Sox fan.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 02:01 PM) I did not agree with signing Rollins, Latos, and Avila/Navarro this past offseason. Would have much preferred signing Desmond and Fowler to 3 year deals and someone like Fister to a 1 or 2 year deal while sticking with Flowers for another year once Wieters accepted the QO. I would still give Fowler a 3 year contract this offseason but it's even harder now because they likely won't have a protected 1st pick or a comp pick for losing shark. I think that's where the front office blew it by not truly going all in last offseason. I'd still like to see them go for it this offseason by signing the before mentioned vets that have shown the ability to succeed in the AL and are still producing this year at a much higher level than our current options at C, CF, #5 SP, etc. Still have to be strategic in these signings can't just willy nilly sign whoever is left at the end of the offseason. But again this is tied to payroll constraints so JR needs to open the checkbook a bit wider than he did last offseason if wants the "all in" approach. That's still not going to be near enough. Cleveland and Detroit are #3 & 4, respectively, in league offense this season, while the Sox remain towards the bottom at #12. You are adding Wieters as an upgrade at catcher. Ok, but his sparkling .683 OPS isn't going to put much of a dent in reducing that gap between the Sox and their two main division rivals on offense. Who else are you bringing in that will close that gap and help stifle those who believe a rebuild is in order? Moreland? Still coming up a bit short there, I'm afraid. Similarly, with Cleveland having superior pitching overall to that of the Sox, and Detroit arguably a notch or two higher, how does Volquez and his 1.47 WHIP improve our chances to compete with those two teams? Remember, it's not about upgrading from the garbage we saw this year. It's about upgrading to a point that puts us in a position to win the division and/or compete for a wildcard. I'm afraid the addition of Volquez and return of Petricka and Putnam doesn't get us close to those other two teams, either. In other words, you are far overrating the current roster, and underestimating the extent to which the quantity and quality of upgrades to the team would need to be for the Sox to compete for the postseason next year.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 02:24 PM) And still the only baseball championship that either side of town has witnessed during our lifetime is the one following an offseason of patching obvious holes at catcher, second base, right field, fifth starter, and bullpen with mid-tier free agents and trades. Sound familiar? I think this whole discussion goes back to how far away one thinks this roster is from being a contender. I happen to think filling the obvious holes in the 25-man roster with productive players will result in a competitive team. As much as people keep saying it, last offseason was not "all in." If anything, that was a "stand pat" approach. What was their most expensive signing? Austin Jackson for 1 year at $5MM? I'm advocating signing 4 guys that exceed that type of contract but also don't reach the level of a Cespedes or Encarnacion - more in line with the 2014/2015 offseason approach because I believe the Sox have less holes to fill now than they did in 2014. The "throw anything against the wall and hope it'll stick" approach? Sure, it sounds familiar. It's been happening for quite some time with Williams and Hahn at the helm. Great way to build a team capable of sustainable winning, eh?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 12:49 PM) I could list busted prospects all day long, with every team. The White Sox rebuilt in 1986, they rebuilt in 1997. According to you, the only "exciting" season they have had was 2005, which wasn't a rebuilding year. Although I don't think you are like others here who really want the White Sox to fail because they would rather moan and point out how much smarter they are, I do think you want them to win. So, they rebuild, and did a pretty good job of it twice, yet it didn't meet your criteria. Why would you give up possibly getting lucky vs. a guaranteed 4 or 5 years of being awful and then if everything goes right it still may not work out to your requirements? They did do a good job at the rebuild both times they did it during the times you referenced, and to use Reinsdorf speak, they got from Point A to Point B. Where they came up short was getting to Point C, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are not at Point B right now, so what I'd personally like to see is the effort to do the Point A to Point B exercise again, and then deal with getting to Point C when the time comes. Right now, I really don't know at what point this team is at all. Seems stuck somewhere in the middle, quite honestly.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 12:26 PM) It's not ironic at all. Would you agree that missing on the prospects involved in a Sale/Q package is much more detrimental to the long term future of the franchise than missing on a 2-year FA deal for someone like Moreland or Volquez? How about we don't miss on those prospects? That is a possible outcome, you know. In one case, you no longer have Sale/Q and a bunch of crappy prospects/major leaguers. Or you have a bunch of elite prospects who go onto outperform the mid-tier band aids you are suggesting the team pursue. In the other case, you still have Sale/Q and a bunch o crappy prospects/major leaguers. You mean like we have this year, last year, and if we go forward with what you propose, most likely next year as well. If you are going the total rebuild option you better be damn sure you have the best front office and scouts in place to make those decisions - do you think we do? It's ironic that anyone thinking a front office that has failed with previous trades and FA acquisitions will excel in a total rebuild. That makes no sense to me. We haven't had a chance to see what this particular front office can do with a rebuild. Sadly, we've seen what they are unable to accomplish with the kind of retooling you seem to still be interested in them doing. Sign a few mid-tier free agents this offseason, (like the last few years? No thanks! Losing formula!) a new manager, and see if it comes together. If it's still broken come mid-late June then there better be a clean out of the front office and let the new front office start the rebuild process in late July by unloading Melky, Frazier, Gonzalez, and Robertson. You do realize with a bunch of rentals with the likes of Melky, Frazier, etc. that we will get little in return that would make any meaningful contribution to a successful rebuild. They can even wait until the following offseason to trade Sale and Q if they don't get blown away at the deadline. As Mother always said, don't put off till tomorrow what you can get done today! Those guys are under team control thru 2019 for goodness sake. Which is why today they are more valuable and will garner more in a return than they will a year from now.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 11:59 AM) Because when you have Sale and Quintana, there is always a chance you might hit on someone and you still have Sale and Quintana. Trading them could result in the Jesus Monteros, Logan Morrisons of the world. You, and the rest of us would be even more unhappy then. If you don't think these dopes can project players with MLB experience, it is kind of crazy to think they would be good at doing something even harder. Projecting players with no MLB experience. Although I once worked at a place that if you really wanted a promotion, failing at your job was the quickest path. They even once laid a woman off and found her a better paying job. Any other possible outcomes other than these couple of cherry picked bad trades from over the years you are reminding us of?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 10:17 PM) Build a complete pitching staff somehow. Fire Robin, hire Leyland, fire Cooper and get a pitching coach who believes in 7 innings from his starters minimum. Pitching, pitching, pitching, defense, defense, defense. You sure you want to settle for Leyland, what with Whitey Herzog and Jack McKeon just out there for the taking?

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 11:26 AM) What? Retooling with guys like Wieters, Moreland, Volquez is not rocket science. These guys are known commodities and have shown they can succeed in the AL. They are also guys that will not require excessive long term, high dollar commitments that can make or break the future of the franchise. Trading all of our vets for a bunch of prospects is something else altogether. If we are going that route, I'd prefer to do it with a different front office. If you screw that up you really can break the franchise much worse than it is currently broken. How well has the rebuild worked for the twins since 2010? They are still 2-3 years away from fielding a competitive team in the best case scenario, which is still no guarantee. Not all can't miss prospects turn out to be stars - just ask the twins about their one time #1 overall prospect in baseball Byron Buxton. MAYBE he will be an all star by the team he reaches free agency but MAYBE he will be a fourth outfielder too. The irony here is that you are willing to trust this front office with a job that they have a poor established track record on, i.e., retooling, but are unwilling to trust them with a job like rebuilding for which we actually don't know how good they'd do at such a thing.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 09:27 AM) That's your opinion. Mine is that roster can be competitive. If not, unload at next year's deadline. I'm willing to wait the first 4 months of next season to let it play out and clearly the front office is as well. Eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. The combination of Reinsdorf's somewhat kryptic yet telling comment about how the first couple of moves this offseason will clearly show the direction the club is going in with the reports back in late July about how White Sox scouts were scouring the Red Sox farm system to "lay the ground for possible offseason" trades indicates to me we are at the end of the road on the retooling game.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 07:24 AM) Wieters would be a significant upgrade over Navarro and Volquez would be a significant upgrade over Danks/Shields/Ranaudo. Did I ever say they are all star caliber? No, well I suppose Wieters did make it this year due to a strong first half. I'm not asking for all star performance out of those guys but even serviceable would be a vast improvement over the black holes we have had at those two spots this season. And yes, with the addition of Burdi, Putnam, Petricka, and possibly one other arm via trade or free agency I expect the bullpen to be much better next year. It also helps when your fifth starter doesn't completely destroy your bullpen every 5 days, this aspect cannot be understated. These aren't the kind of upgrades that will transform this current team into a contender. What you are proposing is same church, different pew from what's been happening through the retooling efforts of recent years, and which would inevitably result next year in yet another year of meaningless, boring baseball on the South Side. Time for a different approach.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 06:40 AM) Considering Dionner Navarro and his negative WAR was our starting catcher for most of the year, Wieters would represent a significant upgrade. Also, Fulmer/Volquez should represent a HUGE upgrade at fifth starter. Consider the fact that the White Sox are 7-19 in games started by Shields, Danks, and Ranaudo (with an ERA around 8). For the sake of discussion I'm going to call that three headed monster the "fifth starter." Wouldn't even need a stud filling that spot but league average and this team is 5 or 6 wins better. I also expect the bullpen to be much better next year which I think can account for another 3-4 wins. Really not asking for much here and that's a ~10 win improvement if everything else stays the same. So Wieters and his .683 OPS, Volquez with his 1.47 WHIP, and some magical 3-4 game improvement by the existing cast in the bullpen will be what turns this 76 win team into an 86 win team? Ok, if that's the direction you'd like the team to go in. Meanwhile, some of the rest of us prefer a cease-and-desist on launching another failed retooling exercise and instead move in the direction of trying to successfully execute a full rebuild. It's time.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 08:00 PM) So why would these guys be the guys to tear it all down and start over? Seems that is a bigger disaster waiting to happen than adding middling players hoping it all works out. At least they have Sale and Quintana. Quintana is going on the White Sox cruise in November, so it doesn't appear the Sox think they will trade him. I am going to a season ticket holder event with Hahn tomorrow. I will report if he gives us anything. On the contrary. We've seen them try their hand at "adding middling players hoping it all works out", and it's been a complete disaster. For their efforts on that alone both Hahn and Williams should be shown to the curb, but we know that's not going to happen anytime soon with the way the octogenarian owner is running things these days. What we actually don't know is how Kenny Hahn might handle a "tear it all down and start over" operation. We've never seen them try. Perhaps that's more in their wheelhouse. So as long as we're stuck with them, why not let them have a go at that and see how it goes. Best case scenario they take us from "Point A to Point B", a la Larry Himes from many a moon ago, and then the owner can repeat his own history and bring in someone to get the team to "Point C". Worst case scenario is Kenny Hahn proves to be equally bad at the total rebuild business, at which time Reinsdorf will be ready to sell and then the fan base gets the total clean slate it probably needs in the first place.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 12:02 PM) That's a very dramatic post but still doesn't change my stance that signing a few players this offseason and seeing if it comes together during the first half of 2017 is a good approach. If they are out of the race next July then sure tear it up. The Sox aren't losing any players of value this offseason and guys like Melky and Robertson might both be MORE valuable next July then they were this year or this offseason since they will have less money remaining on their contracts. I see no reason to be in a big rush here. This starting staff is going to be really great next season with the emergence of Rodon and Fulmer and possible addition of a capable #5 starter. Fill the holes in CF, C, and DH and see what happens. Players like Moreland and Wieters are not dumpster dives like Rollins, Latos, Avila, etc. but they will require JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider since they are another tier up. I guess the eight year playoff drought doesn't bother you.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 4, 2016 -> 10:26 AM) And yet none of those guys are free agents until after NEXT season. Why the big rush to dump them this season? I see nothing wrong with holding these guys and making a few acquisitions in the offseason to go for it again. If they are out of the race again next trade deadline then dump them at that time. If they are in the same position again next season and hold guys like Melky until season end with nothing in return, then I will criticize their "all in" approach. Until then I see nothing wrong with signing guys like Moreland, Volquez, Wieters, etc since they won't cost a draft pick nor will they cost big money. Maybe just maybe they catch some breaks and it all comes together like 2005. If not, wave the white flag next July and unload anything of value set to expire at the end of the season. Because the formula with them clearly isn't working, with the Sox well on their way to a second 76/77 win season with those fellas in key positions. And the approach of signing the additional guys who don't "cost a draft pick" or "cost big money", i.e. DUMPSTER DIVE moves, well, how did that work out for us this year. A big NO THANKS to a repeat of 2015 & 2016 in 2017, thank you very much. No, with the Sox YET AGAIN near the bottom of the barrel in both attendance and TV ratings, with a team that plays in a hitter's ballpark like the Cell but YET AGAIN is at the bottom of the league offensively, and most importantly, a team that YET AGAIN has failed to make the postseason for the eighth year in a row, it's time for a change, folks. Time to tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Tear it up! Shake this disaster at its core and let's go in a new direction. Any direction, because it can't be any worse than what the organization has been mired in for far too long now. TEAR IT UP!

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 10:14 AM) For what it's worth I can only tell you what I was told after the trade deadline by two sources, that JR does not want to trade Sale or Quintana and that he wants to "go for it" again next year. Maybe he changes his mind over the winter...we'll see. Mark Go for what with what? A championship with a squad still somewhat resembling THIS team? The team that has looked as bad as the 2013 team by going 40-60 in the 100 games since the fluke start? I mean, what are we talking about here? I'm all for going for it, as this playoff drought and bad baseball of recent seasons is really getting old. But if Reinsdorf & Crew are simply going to go through another round of dumpster dives and try to pass them off as upgrades in the spirit of "going for it", well, that would be rather unfortunate, to say the least.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 2, 2016 -> 07:25 AM) There is still a massive divide between the haves and have nots in baseball, and revenue is the truest division. Small market teams occasionally make it out, but they disappear quickly. I used KC and Pittsburgh as examples before. So they finally did something positive right? Yeah, look at where they are right now. The Chicago White Sox do NOT fall in the category of the "have nots".

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 1, 2016 -> 02:30 PM) The problem is, I have no idea what is possible with Sale or Quintana. They wanted Jackie Bradley Jr. as part of the package. Could they get him in the offseason? But, if I was to trade one of those guys or both, at least part of the return is established major league players. Melky, Frazier, and Lawrie playing for a contract usually works to the teams advantage during the season. They need a starting catcher. Another OF who can hit, maybe a 1B that can at least make Abreu DH once in while. Another reliever or 2. Maybe another back end starter to throw into the mix. And the position players they get, have to be able to hit. It's a lot, but IMO if they are really going to go for it, they have to really go for it. Not hoping someone comes through. They have to be prepared for someone to get hurt or to suck unexpectedly. But trading everybody and getting prospects can set you up to be bad for a really long time. It's not like these other rebuilt teams had several good players they just turned into a bunch of can't miss prospects. Most of them just got really bad and had no choice. All of the bolded has been true for a few seasons now. The plans executed to address those needs continue to fail. Maybe just maybe this management team of Williams and Hahn might be better at a rebuild than they are at figuring out a successful "All In" plan.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 1, 2016 -> 10:35 AM) We haven't seen anywhere near the worst. We didn't go decades without being over .500. We kind of have. The 99 games played since the 23-10 start, which is a pretty decent sample size, shows the Sox playing (or losing, depending on how you look at it) at a 2013-esque level. In fact, I don't know if it's still true or not, but somewhere in the last week or so I saw a report that said the Sox had the worst record in baseball since the 23-10 start - and this with not one but two Cy Young candidates in the starting rotation! That in and of itself tells you how awful the rest of the team is at the moment!

If you are of the mind that the Sox should trade both Q and Sale this offseason and see to maximize an even greater return than what could have been garnered at the trade deadline, then what better moniker to hang around Q's neck than "Cy Young Award Winner". We already know we'd get a king's ransome for Sale as he is by far the better known quantity out there. But you might be able to match that return more easily if Q were to win that reward. It would be the ultimate in selling high on both of them.