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QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 20, 2014 -> 10:54 AM) That's not history, that's a small sample size under different circumstances. You're going to take 2 years of Hahn's tenure and use it as a manifesto on his philosophy as a General Manager. You're then going to compare this "philosophy" against Kenny's body of work, even though both men were never working with the same set of circumstances. You want to bring up 2007...2007 came off a 90 win season and is a year removed from a WS Championship. A completely different set of circumstances than that which Hahn found himself in in 2013. Then you sort of fail to mention that the 2008 team made the postseason, which, to me, pretty much validates what Kenny did between the end of 2006 and the beginning of 2008. Meanwhile, Hahn worked for Kenny during this time, and Kenny now influences Hahn today...trying to separate and compare their tenures, especially considering Hahn's has been so brief, is pretty much impossible IMHO. This^ Also, I think that all wite is saying is that he likes the thought process behind how Hahn is handling this rebuild. That means he DOES like moves like Paulino, because the risk/reward made sense at the time even though it didn't ultimately work out. This is in contrast to a lot of the moves under KW, which received a lot of criticism at the time form those of us who couldn't see the upside and thought the cost was too high -- like Hudson for Jackson. That Hudson ended up hurting himself and having no career doesn't absolve criticism for the move at the time. You can say it was too much value for an upgrade that didn't seem like it would move the needle enough, and it ultimately didn't. But, iamshack's point is important: the situations were not similar. And to TUC's related argument, there's a reason that KW got "promoted (read: demoted)" and not fired -- I'm not sure that JR found much fault in his decision-making. He had different task, made moves that ownership supported, and when it didn't work, it was time to move in a different direction. It's entirely possible to think both that Hahn can be the better guy for this rebuild and that KW did a fine (or at least passable) job during his tenure. I just think we have to remember that all of the player decisions these guys make come with the probability for success and for bust, and the GMs know it when they make a move. It isn't fair to expect guys to be able to scout so well that they should be 100% right about 100% of players. When you think of Paulino, you should think of it like this: $1-2m for a lottery ticket that has a 5% chance of being a 2-3 starter, 15% chance of being a 3-4 starter, and 80% chance of being a reliever or useless. Don't knock Hahn because it landed in the 80%, knock him if you thought the gamble wasn't worth a million bucks in the first place. Same thing goes with KW: JR should judge him on the moves, not necessarily the outcomes.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 20, 2014 -> 09:43 AM) However, if this is the "guy who might be better than Puig" we've heard about the last few months, Puig will be the precedent for his salary whether we like it or not, and the successes of Puig and Abreu will almost certainly push his contract past that of Jose. There's a difference between the posturing of the media and the conclusions that are made by front offices. I would hope that GMs won't actually base their valuations solely on the fact that one pop scout said "might be better than Puig" two years ago -- but the bloggers and 670 Scores of the world very well might.

To me, there's way too much in these threads about "earning" and "winning" and "fickle fans" and "excuses" and justice and righteousness and crap. The bottom line is this: the Sox are in the entertainment business, and if people aren't watching, they need to do something different to make them watch. They don't "deserve" fans. It doesn't matter what happens in Milwaukee or whatever. They're a business on the south side of the city of Chicago, and their market is made up of people that live on the south side of Chicago. So they need to get creative to produce a product that will appeal to those people to the degree that those people will consume the product in a profitable manner. All this "shaming" crap has got to stop. We make the team sound like a book store whining about the Amazon Kindle. "Well I just don't know why people don't enjoy the FEEL of a real book like EYE do! I just shake my head at kids these days! This generation just doesn't have GOOD taste!" No, the reality is the world doesn't bow to your whim. Just because you make a book doesn't give you the right to be paid handsomely for it. This is how capitalism works. There are people and they have money, if you want that money than you must do something that convinces them to give it to you. Changing nothing and whining because people don't mold their desires around YOU does nothing but put you out of business. "Poor musicians" are the same way. You actually DON'T have the right to live your dream; what you DO have is the right to attempt it unimpeded. No one is going to write you a check in the event that you didn't do something that anyone gave a s*** about. If attendance is really an issue, the Sox need to be willing to discard the model of how a team gets people in the stadium and replace it with one based on Chicagoans in 2014. Between the constant evolution of technology and pop culture, the answer to "what people want" is always changing and always will. Discovering and executing this is the very nature of private business.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2014 -> 09:32 AM) I would say we have gotten $10 million worth out of him for sure. Yeah, that's true. Another thing to note regarding Tomas: look at those numbers and compare them to Abreu's. This kid is an advanced prospect, not someone who is likely to step in and be a star from day one. Not saying we shouldn't want him, just saying that Puig set a dangerous precedent. What he has done should not be considered standard.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Jun 20, 2014 -> 09:24 AM) Exactly. Would rather risk money on younger talent than middle aged vets. The question is "can we get in enough due diligence to properly assess the risk and upside?" It's much harder with younger guys than with vets, but like SS2k5 said, I'll give the Sox the benefit of the doubt here. The biggest bust so far is $10m or whatever to Viciedo, and while he's bad, he's at least a ML player.

I don't think that gets the deal done in the first place, and I don't think we even want Price given that (1) we wouldn't likely be able to extend him and (2) I'm not sure i Want to extend him anyway, given how his velocity has already fallen.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 09:52 AM) Ha! I've reached my quota in terms of talking about poor attendance. I simply cannot take on another team's problems. But I'll join you anytime for a game out there, and at least help the S.I. Yanks with their attendance issues! Check your PM box

Nice! I wish I worked for a Sox affiliate haha

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 08:43 AM) Alexei Ramirez and Jose Quintana for Taijuan Walker, Nick Franklin, and Erasmo Ramirez. You know, I don't even know if I'd do that. I mean think about it: Walker could be an ace, sure, but he's already had shoulder issues. At this point, if you told the Mariners that Walker would settle in as a 3-4 fWAR pitcher in his mid-20's I think they'd be happy with that outcome. That's what Quintana already IS, and he's on an extension already. Nick Franklin is a tweener defensively at SS, and Erasmo is really just an intriguing rebound candidate at this point. Nah, I wouldn't make that deal. I'll take the bird in the hand.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 09:18 AM) If you're telling us that these tiny crowds we see at the ballpark everyday include a whole bunch of freebies, then the problem is worse than I thought. I just noticed you're in NYC. Do you ever come to Staten Island Yankees games? You should come one night and argue with me about attendance

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jun 19, 2014 -> 08:21 AM) Wonder if the M's would be open to trading Hultzen...He's injured, and not gonna pitch all year so maybe they're down on him a bit. As a former #2 overall I doubt it but I think they'd trade him before Walker. Hultzen's issues are shoulder-related. We don't want anything to do with him, IMO.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jun 18, 2014 -> 07:48 PM) I agree, I would ask for the minimum of Walker, Guerrero, and Wilson. Heavy price for the best SS in the AL with a great contract. lol what?

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Jun 18, 2014 -> 04:21 PM) Trade for David Price? 3. Chicago White Sox The White Sox haven't really been linked to Price, but it's time to realize they are committed to rebuilding and winning, and Price would make them a legitimate wild-card contender this year. Rick Hahn has done a masterful job since taking over as the GM in Chicago, highlighted by his outbidding everyone for MVP candidate Jose Abreu, who should be the starting first baseman in the All-Star Game next month. President Ken Williams and owner Jerry Reinsdorf know what it's like to hold up a World Series trophy in the White House, and with Williams' passion for winning and Reinsdorf's willingness to spend smartly to win, a potential trade for Price should not be dismissed. Remember when the White Sox flew under the radar and outbid everyone for Jake Peavy? I can see them doing it again here. The Rays could ask for second baseman Micah Johnson, who has quickly proven himself in the minor leagues to the tune of a .297 average and .371 on-base percentage. Johnson has good speed, and his defense is improving. Most importantly, he profiles as a leadoff hitter, the type of table-setter the Rays need atop their lineup. The Rays would need another significant piece in the deal, and struggling starting pitcher Erik Johnson could be the guy who makes the deal work. He was impressive in 2012 and 2013, when he showed plus stuff, and was in the team's rotation to start the season, but five failed starts got him shipped to the minors, where he continues to struggle. A physical would have to be done, of course, but if he's cleared, there's no reason he can't bounce back and develop into a solid No. 3 starter. Solving problems at second base and the top of the lineup while adding another solid starter might be enough to get Price at the end of the day. Since this package is "light" compared to the previous two deals, a throw-in such as right-handed pitching prospect Chris Beck would be necessary. The trade: Micah Johnson, Erik Johnson and Chris Beck for Price. Rofl

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2014 -> 10:26 PM) The White Sox have been one of the most consistent organizations out there, and in contention almost every single year. They won a division in 2008, attendance fell short of the previous year. They were in first place for all but the last two weeks of the season in 2012, attendance was still down over 2011. Unless by consistency, you literally mean win the division almost every single year, all of the myths of when Sox fans will actually show up are pretty well busted, unless a World Series is actually won. I think a lot of people were fooled into thinking that the spike after 2005 was "normal", and it has been eroding every year since, no matter what this team does. Even when they have won, attendance is still down. There are some who need to re-set their expectations, because they aren't reality. I do mean win the division almost every year. Other teams have runs of several years of relative dominance before being usurped. The White Sox have been "in it" a lot, but we have never been the "top dog" in the division for any length of time and we have one championship in 100 years basically.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2014 -> 10:20 PM) Even when they were winning, they still didn't show up. 2008 was lower than 2007. 2012 was lower than 2011. Even the "WINNING" thing is BS honestly. It takes consistency and it takes more than just finishing over .500. People respond to a shot at a championship.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 18, 2014 -> 07:22 PM) Well I'm very glad to hear that they have figured it out financially for themselves. I'm not sure why you or I as fans really care about that, but whatever. Aren't you a tad more interested in the product on the field, though? Do seriously not understand that those two things are directly linked?

Seriously -- Jordan Danks ' ultimate ceiling is "serviceable stopgap." Let's not lose any more sleep over him, please.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2014 -> 08:13 AM) When the Sox had Maggs, CLee, Big Hurt...their attendance wasn't even average. According to Caulfield's post, they weren't even average when they won the division in 2000 or when they won the WS in 2005. Wasn't there a 10-15 year stretch where the White Sox won more games than just about everyone except for 3 or 4 teams? I think the problem is the fanbase is stuck in the finding an excuse not to attend games mode. Not necessarily the fans fault. There have been great restaurants that didn't draw a crowd. Great TV shows that didn't draw an audience. Somehow, Brooks and his crew need to make USCF a destination, but until they start winning often, I think he has zero chance. But they made the playoffs like twice, right? Even though the record was good, this team hasn't been a "winner" in a long time. I'm not saying we have to win 5 WS in a row, but a few consecutive playoff runs would do wonders, IMO.

Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy congratsssssss

Cool write-up

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 17, 2014 -> 05:41 PM) I guess the fans of the 27 teams in front of us in attendance are still consuming baseball the 'ol fashioned way of actually going to the ballpark much more so than our fan base is. Coincidentally, exactly 27 teams won more games than us last year. Comparing attendance totals to the past is useless because of all the cultural and technological changes, and if you want to know the secret to high attendance compared to other teams, look at the win column. And no, I don't mean the "had a couple exciting months before falling out of it a couple years ago" column.

:lol:

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jun 16, 2014 -> 05:20 PM) Well, I don't want to measure it historically because it's just flat out irrelevant. It is rather feint praise to conclude that Jerry Reinsdorf has somehow been a great owner because his record of success is better than that of John Allyn. That's just silly! No, where I'm coming from is that here we are, in 2014, essentially still having the same conversations about attendance that were going on when Reinsdorf and Einhorn (remember him?) first bought the ball club way back in '81. Jerry is so often referred to as one of the smartest owners in the game, and yet after 34 years, he still hasn't solved the most fundamental problem of his own franchise. As Hawk likes to say in the broadcasts "It's just that simple!". And here WE are, still pretending that nothing has changed regarding how people consume baseball over that 34 year period.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 17, 2014 -> 11:25 AM) Yes, except that El Duque is so much junkier. I loved watching him pitch. Did you know that El Duque is almost 10 years older than Livan? I thought it was like 5. That's crazy.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 17, 2014 -> 10:13 AM) He probably throws 82 at this point and he'd still be getting guys out. Just like Livan