Eminor3rd

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 05:37 PM) The guy just turned 25 today. Saying he cannot improve is foolish. There are plenty of examples of people improving at that age. That's the second paragraph in what you just quoted, where I said he has talent and it isn't impossible for him to improve. But IF HE DOES it will be a complete reversal of everything we know about him. All things are possible, complete HALLELUJAH epiphanies of Zen clarity are uncommon. It's just how it is. It isn't a good bet that a dude with 1200 PAs of ML hackitude just "gets it," because the coaches have been trying to tell him that for years. You can find a few guys, sure, and that's why it is possible. But for every success there are 500 failures. You can beat a straight flush, for example, but the odds aren't on your side, and so it behooves you to cut your losses. That's all I'm saying. If Seattle is going to give us something of value to take our risk off our hands, we should do it, IMO. Not for Michael Saunders though.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 02:53 PM) That only really makes a difference if you underslot that pick and use the money elsewhere. Precisely. Which is why if you argue that that pick isn't likely to work out anyway, you can pick a lesser guy there to pick a better guy earlier.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 02:46 PM) I think we're looking at JefCon9 (translated as Gillaspinger platoon, batting 9th) to start the season. Get hot Matty. Jeff Conine? I'll take it.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 02:16 PM) He murdered LHP in 2012 and couldn't hit RHP. He improved vs. RHP last year and slipped a bit vs. LHP. It's cherry-picking, but cherry picking is fine when you are looking for anything, but if you take his 2013 vs. RHP and his 2012 vs. LHP, you are talking about a guy hitting close to .300 with a .332 OBP and an .820 OPS. Plus he can hit the ball 500 feet, and is still very young. There is a lot more there than some of the crap you wanted the White Sox to acquire. I think today is his birthday. You should at least be nice to him on his birthday. But that's the thing with cherry-picking, it's a thing you do when you don't have enough information to get the full picture. With him, we have SO much information, and ALL of it is bad. It's nice that he showed a more neutral platoon split last year, but he was below average against both, so really it was more like he stopped murdering lefties and still hit below average against righties. I'm not saying it's impossible that he breaks out, of course the talent is enticing. I'm just saying we've got tons of objective data showing him fail to make adjustments, so right now everything points to him not being able to reach his potential. And as of today, he's a bad player. I hope he has a great birthday though! He's already a multi-millionaire though, so I can't feel too bad about ragging on him for swinging at bad pitches.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 02:02 PM) The evidence is there. He has had stretches where he has been very effective. It's a matter of making it happen more consistently. To say there is NOTHING that says he can be successful is total hyperbole. Show it to me then, DA. Guess who else was awesome in stretches? Brent Lillibridge. Anyone can have a good week. We've got all kinds of results to analyze for Viciedo because he's had tons of playing time. Show me the promise in those results.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 01:33 PM) So you choose to ignore his second half Second half splits are not good predictors of future breakouts: http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/relevance...ond-half-stats/ http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball...k2k10secondhalf QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 01:33 PM) and his tools Tools mean jack if the player refuses to gain skills to accompany them. It makes sense to give the player the benefit of the doubt until he shows you otherwise. Unfortunately for Viciedo... well over the past three seasons, more than 1000 plate appearances, Viciedo's strike recognition has somehow DIMINISHED. This is an extremely, extremely discouraging trend. His Achilles Heel is O-Swing: 2011 = 36.4%, 2012 = 39.9%, 2013 = 42.5%. League average hovers around 31%. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 01:33 PM) some minor league numbers The fact that he managed an .853 OPS in AAA one year is nice, I guess, and would be encouraging if that's all we had to go on, but I can't think of any reason at all not to trust the 1200+ PAs he's had at the major league level instead. Can you? QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 01:33 PM) yet create threads about players who suck in the minor leagues who have been DFA'd that the Sox should consider acquiring. IMO, it's easier to come up with evidence Viciedo can be successful than a couple of the names you suggested they should pick up. I would argue that the performance standard for "picking up a flyer for free" is different than "logjamming your OF for four years." If it's easy to come up with evidence that Viciedo can be successful, please feel free to do so. I haven't seen anything so far.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Mar 8, 2014 -> 11:28 PM) And if they pick they lose is really the 50th, then I think it's a smart signing by the Blue Jays. What are the odds the 50th pick even makes the majors? While they need everything to go right to compete in that division, it's worth the risk given their current position. They do have talent on the roster, but if it all falls apart there is no long-term risk payroll wise. It's not just the pick, it's the slot money.

Well, our pitching coaches do happen to have a great track record fixing guys with control issues, specifically. But at #3, do we need to take a guy who needs fixed? I'm not convinced he has so much more upside than the more polished guys that'll be available.

Viva Zapata! The Sox may not use it, but I will.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 01:42 PM) No he doesn't I mean I guess it's true that even replacement level players are still REALLY good at baseball, compared to the average human being. But he's been a replacement level player, so by MLB standards, he currently sucks. Maybe he'll get better, but I haven't seen anyone come up with any evidence to suggest that it's likely.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 01:47 PM) I really dislike that logic. It doesn't matter what type of hitter is in LF, you just want them to be good. There have been several teams - the Pirates notably, but others as well - that have used non-traditional LFers out there and gotten great results because they've saved runs defensively. +1

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 01:07 PM) Remember that almost perfect game he had? Nope

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 12:47 PM) So ticket prices go down now, right? If not, Reinsdorf is greedy.

QUOTE (southside hitman @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 12:36 PM) Obviously a prelude to the Santana signing. Rofl

I think the need for power at first is overblown in this offensive environment. There were exactly six 1B in the Majors last year that hit 30 or more homers, for example, and that includes DH Adam Dunn. The low offensive environment is perfect for the Loney school of first basemen to thrive, because you can't just fling a dook against the wall and expect it to splatter on a 25 homer 1B like you could in the steroid era. The entire league, us included, is starving enough for OBP that anyone who can avoid outs has a place on a team. They just aren't making replacement-level first basemen like they used to.

Good news for the Charlotte rotation crunch

QUOTE (iamshack @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 11:48 AM) Get in line behind Marty and I. Do we need an official club? I had no idea Marty and I agreed on something.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 08:50 AM) I'm not sure we can say they're "Considering" it, but there appears to have been fairly respectable, non-bruce-levine names that have liked the White Sox and Mariners and put the 2 names Viciedo and Saunders together. The Sox know Viciedo better than anyone at this point and given his lack of development, I consider it plausible that they might reach a point of personal frustration with him in a way other teams wouldn't. When I start seeing proposals involving him that otherwise make no sense, as you say...that starts making me think that a personal issue could very well be the problem. This is one I could easily be mistaken on, because the only way to really gauge how a team feels about a guy personally is to read between the lines; looking at performance, playing time, trade rumors, competition on the roster, etc. If nothing happens and he goes out and gets 600 PA's this year, then they're still showing confidence in him. If they make a move like this, or they give him 350 PA's and platoon him with a lefty OF who is older and getting close to FA...those kind of things argue to me that they have a real problem with the guy. This makes sense. I mean, the reality is that Viciedo is about 400PA away from being a "change of scenery" candidate. Everyone can see the potential, but he has gotten about 0% better at hitting over his last ~1000 or so PA -- it's very possible that the coaching staff is just saying "I don't know what else to do with this guy."

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 06:56 AM) The Boras-White Sox thing is overblown especially with Hahn in charge right? Could that have something to do with it? Might the Sox be afraid of the contract that Viciedo and Boras will ask for? How many years of control is Viciedo now, 2 more? In my non-informed opinion, it is indeed overblown. You don't get the GM job if you're unwilling to be in play for a large fraction of the most talented players around because of a personal relationship. Also, Viciedo is not currently a threat for a big contract, lol.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Mar 10, 2014 -> 05:58 AM) I'm probably more in favor of trading Viciedo than anybody here, and even I don't see Saunders as being a good return. I like his defense and his ability to take walks is something the Sox are still sorely lacking, but his contact rate is pretty poor for somebody who is not a slugger, and the Sox don't really need anymore lefty outfielders unless DeAza is also going away in a separate deal. I challenge your title of "most in favor of trading Viciedo!" But yeah, no upside with Michael Saunders. If we didn't have Eaton, though, I'd probably do it. But we have Eaton.

Franklin's ceiling is likely not very high, but he's got a very good chance of being a solid contributor. I don't get the impression he's any better than Semien, though. That said, I think Viciedo is horrible, so I'd make the move. I'd trade him for Ackley if we didn't already have a logjam there. But for this team, a flier in the OF is mroe valuable than a flier in the IF.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 9, 2014 -> 12:48 PM) The Mariners system is so top heavy I can't imagine being excited about receiving prospects from them because we wouldn't be getting Walker/Hultzen/Paxton/Peterson/Pike. Past that it gets ugly for the most part. When the Sox and M's talked Franklin-Viciedo does anyone remember who turned it down? If that trade was revisited and completed, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that the Sox could break camp with Franklin-Alexei-Beckham at 3B-SS-2B and eventually move Alexei or Beckham. Franklin and Semien take over in the middle and Davidson gets 3B. That being said I have a really hard time figuring whether I like Franklin or not. I believe the story was the Mariners offered Ackley for Viciedo, Hahn countered with Franklin for Viciedo, and then talks stopped.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 8, 2014 -> 10:45 PM) I'm pretty sure Viciedo already knows his limits. Why wouldn't he practice pushing them when it doesn't hurt to try?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 8, 2014 -> 07:41 PM) Hanging on every pitch during the first week of spring training games is ridiculous. If Ventura is green lighting everyone, which I doubt, wouldn't it make sense to see in spring training, WHEN THE GAMES DO NOT COUNT, who can and cannot be given that option? Plus young players make plenty of mistakes. The good thing is when these mistakes are made, there is plenty of time to work on them now. You can be assured if Alexei and Beckham failed to cover the base, they were coering bases for more than a little while the next morning. People want young players playing. A couple of places where the fundamentals were worse than at USCF last year were Birmingham and Charlotte. Young players screw up, especially the first couple of weeks of spring training when it has been months since they have played in a game. I'm with DA on this. This does not represent actual baseball. The pitchers are out there throwing all fastballs, the players are lifting and running to get in shape, and the baserunners and fielders are literally practicing things with no regard to the game situation at all. You can't judge them on this stuff. April 1st? Sure.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/03/ervi...th-al-club.html