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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 17, 2013 -> 09:10 AM) For comparison though, Quintana is on his way to a 4 fWAR season and has 2 more years remaining where he's pre-arb. Carlos Gomez is paid $7 million next year whereas Quintana is paid $500k unless we extend him. if 1 WAR = $6 million, then when you factor in the contracts Carlos Gomez right now is only worth ~1 WAR more than Quintana/$6 million more right now, and Quintana is younger and has every reason based on this season to think he can continue to improve next year. Given all those things I'd take the slightly younger player, but then if you throw in the fact that there should be a major premium on cost-controlled, left-handed pitching, Quintana alone might well be an overpay for him. Santiago I'd be more willing to consider because the Sox have jerked him around and blew a year of pre-arb time for him out of the bullpen these last 2 seasons. But you must factor that we have pitching and desperately need hitting. I don't like Gomez, but that's because I think he played over his head this year and won't reach this height again, not because I don't think his 2013 has been incredibly valuable. If I thought Gomez was for real, I'd give up Santiago + Thompson + a third piece without thinking twice. 27 year old 6-7WAR CF? Sign me up. But is he really a +20 defender? Is anyone really a +20 defender? Do we really need another 25% K, 6% BB kind of guy? The .339 OBP is fine from him if he stays there, but the components don't add up and his history screams otherwise. Maybe he can sustain a .351 BABIP, but that would put him up there with the greatest of all-time. This looks a lot like his career year to me, and his batting line looks a lot like Alex Rios. Don't get me wrong, Rios' bat + elite CF defense is a helluva player, but it doesn't sit in the middle of the order for a contender, and it doesn't come with any upside, IMO. I like the idea, just not the player.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 05:52 PM) Not about giving Choo all that money. I think you can still make a nice signing of a guy in that age group. Everyone is going to have his warts. When and if Trout becomes a free agent, you can bet even though he will probably only be 26 or 27, he isn't going to sign for 5 years. Unless you draft them and develop them or only have them a couple of seasons, you are probably going to have most elite players umder comtract for his age 32 season and beyond. Right, but that must be done because it's the price of business. Since it's an open market, the prize goes to who is willing to sacrifice the most. When teams sign those guys, they are committing to pain in the future in order to get what they need to push them over the top. The pain is worth it if and only if you get a flag now. If we were an 88 win team somehow, you'd have to consider guys like Choo. But we're not even an 88 LOSS team. We need guys that project to be assets in the future, not liabilities.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 03:26 PM) He has been playing with a bad quad for over a month. I think the Sox will bring him back and he has shown for stretches he can hit. He has been banged up this year. If he can stay healthy, IMO, he will put up good numbers. Can he stay healthy is a good question though. He's been playing with a bad bat for 5 years. I just don't see any indication that there's upside left. He's got almost 2500 Major League plate appearances.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFan05 @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 03:42 PM) Not much of a Facebook guy, but there's a good Sox page I follow. They're usually pretty good with info, they leaked the Peavy and Crain deals many hours before they were official. Here's what they posted recently on Beckham: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=433...5219&type=1 Oh jesus, some of those comments.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 10:48 AM) Deep and profound philosophy on SoxTalk.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 03:24 PM) I wouldn't give Choo $100 million either. Then why are you arguing with me, friend?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 02:50 PM) I am not talking about this year, and I don't endorse signing someone for 7 years who is 32 years old. But walking away from every 32 year old is a mistake. There are plenty of 32 year olds who can have a small regression but still be better than what the White Sox can put on the field right now. I think they are going after Abreu and McCann myself. Ideally, they get both, but I'm thinking they would be happy with at least one. I also think they try to add a couple more guys to very short term make good contracts, and depending on how well that goes, trade from their pitching strength to get someone who can hit. They have to bolster the offense, and while they may not be able to totally do so in 1 offseason, I think they will make enough moves to at least keep it interesting. We probably have to hope for Tank and Garcia and Beckham to blossom next year to be elite, but there could be enough to win even if they don't. Look at Cleveland. Reynolds was so bad he was DFA'd. Swisher and Bourne haven't exactly been spectacular, and Asdrubal has been not so good himself, yet they have a shot. As bad as the Sox have been, they were in a lot of close games where any kind of offense gets them wins. These losses at the end count, but they aren't playing with a full deck because of being out of the race so early. I'm not suggesting walking away from every 32 year old at all. I'm suggesting staying away from paying a guy $100m to be good for 2 years and bad for 3. This was about Choo specifically, because of his flaws and likely market demand. I mentioned a few pages back I'd love to add him at the right price, but not at anything that approaches what I think he'll get.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 03:02 PM) I'll keep repeating it as long as people keep saying what you just said. His glove isn't elite. It just isn't. He's somewhere around average. Doesn't have a lot of range, turns a good double play, is a good fit next to Alexei because Alexei covers a lot of ground. His range has actually gone down quite a bit if you look at his year over year numbers as well.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 12:29 PM) Gordon was a 1st year arbitration player this year and is making roughly $3M. Next year he's looking at $4.5 to $5M, so you only bring him back if he's your legit starting 2B. That's way too much money for a potential utility infielder if you think someone could realistically overtake him at some point in 2014. I think Hahn will definitely deal one of Ramirez & Bekcham to open up a spot for Semien. Probably the easiest way to improve the team's OBP. $5m is about market rate for a 1 WAR player. There's nothing wrong with a 1 year, market rate contract when your payroll is $50m below where it usually is.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 02:26 PM) Not that huge of a difference considering he played until he was 45, and a catcher. In fact, his age 33 season was one of his worst as a White Sox. I think, while some players fall apart at 32, considering it a general rule, is way off, especially if speed isn't a major component of his effectiveness. Plenty of players are productive until they are 35 or 36 or even 38. People here worried about Detroit being the greatest team ever because they signed a 38 year old and had a 34 year old coming back from injury. Detroit was already a playoff team, and then they added a 38 year old on a short term, low risk contract. It may not be a general rule that players fall apart at 32, but absolutely IS a general rule that they get worse, sometimes gradually and sometimes suddenly. Those moves made sense for Detroit, who was just in the World Series, not for us and our 100ish loss season.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 01:55 PM) Given the pitching staff that's already in place I don't understand why the team isn't in the position for a "quick fix". Also with the whole players "suck" after 32 talk being thrown around there aren't gonna be a few guys to sign who will live up to that 3-5 years of being good. Salty is the only player under 30 who's worth noting and I doubt the Red Sox let him go...I know there will be some guys who get non tendered or whatever that are going to be added to the current list of FAs but chances are those guys won't be good. The pitching staff that's in place is practically all 24 and younger and under team control for a long time. A lot of them also need to mature and continue to improve -- this is exactly why you DON'T want to rush this. If they were all 30 and entering contract years, that's when you would say "the pitching is in place, must act now!"

QUOTE (scs787 @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 01:28 PM) I hadn't gone that far(a whole year, I know) into the defensive metrics to know he was that bad in RF as well so that kinda curves my enthusiasm a bit but I'd still take the upside here. I've been watching plenty enough and I think putting a guy like Choo atop the lineup, a guy like Abreu in the middle of the lineup(if he is who we hope he is), adding Semien over Beckham(see previous parenthesis), and then maybe trading/acquiring a guy for a CF and or a catcher will put us right back in contention next year. Ala the Cleveland Indians. There are guys out there who are still doin work over the age of 35 even, it's not a given that he'll be awful come age 36. I think a guy like him who has a good eye could even pick up a contract after the 5 year he might get this offseason. It's certainly possible it wouldn't be a disaster, it just isn't likely. Outliers are all over the place, but they're still way way less common than typical cases. I have nothing against him personally -- I've always liked him, actually. I just don't think this team is in a position to gamble on things happening contrary to historical precedent. I'm for the Sox spending money as long as it's on guys that will be valuable several years down the road, because I don't think there's enough out there to fix the whole thing in one year. Abreu is target number one (assuming the scouts think he's for real) because he fills a hole and is only 26. I like McCann too, because I think his bat will still be very useful after he moves off of C in a couple years, and that also fills a hole for us. One of those two guys, even at market rates, makes sense to me, because they make the team better next year and also retain value for a few years after, forming a foundation to which we can continue adding talent.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 01:14 PM) You make a pretty convincing case against signing Choo. Is there another player who you would suggest to quickly fix this team's terrible OBP? Would you still view his acquisition negatively, if he could be signed to a 3 year deal, at $15 million per year? I'm not so sure that Sox management is thinking that they won't be competitive until 2016. Hell, by then the young, affordable pitching may not be so affordable anymore. Quintana and Santiago will be starting to earn big money, if they're still any good. I'd love him at 3/$45, don't get me wrong. But I really think we're talking 5/$100m

No, the the $20m doesn't hurt you right now, it hurts you for like 3 seasons later, which happen to be the seasons you might actually have a chance at winning. Also, let's not ignore that defense. I know he doesn't belong in center, but with the Indians in 2012, he was a -16.7 defender in RF. That is insane-horribad. He's -15.6 so far this year. This is a guy who is worse than -30 runs defensively over the last two years. And he'll be 32. Come on guys, what happens to players after age 32? They get worse. And guys who already have huge flaws in their game (extreme platoon splits, garbage defense) tend to get real bad, really quickly. Why are you all so eager to pay for a 32 year old platoon player's career year all of a sudden? To add an embarrassingly bad defender to the most embarrassingly bad defense in the majors? You're not paying for prime Choo, you're paying for post-prime Choo. I love the OBP, but at this stage in his career, he's a hired gun on a contender that is willing to eat it for the final piece. That is not what this team needs. Maybe you guys haven't been watching lately -- this team BLOWS. I was at the game Saturday and left early for the first time in my life. It was just bad entertainment and not worth being there.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 10:36 AM) I really think that Hahn is going to be a bit ahead of the curve in terms of paying players for past performance. I am anticipating him trying to sign Abreu and trying to trade for some pre-arbitration guys who may be blocked or need a change of scenery. I think that's the best possible plan. No idea if that's what he'll do though

QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 10:33 AM) I like your choices for CF as well, but that means Viciedo would have to move. Would you try him at 3RD again? He does have the arm. If Viciedo doesn't play 3RD, then you have to find a taker for Dunn, in order to make room for Abreu and Viciedo at 1B and DH. If Viciedo doesn't improve a lot next year, you probably just DFA him or bury him at DH until you have any other player to put there.

Do you guys really think we should sign Shin Soo Choo? 1. He'll be 32 2. He has always been injury prone 3. He will likely cost something like 5/$100m 4. He plays the same position as one of the only "building block" position players we have in the entire organization

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 15, 2013 -> 12:38 PM) This confirms that WAR is damn near useless. All tools are useless in the hands of those who have no clue how to use them.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 16, 2013 -> 09:59 AM) If they could move Ramirez and his salary, I'd like to see Semien get a shot at SS. His ability to draw walks is what intrigues me. Wouldn't that be refreshing? If the Sox draft Trea Turner, he will be expected to be the SS in 2 or 3 years. Here is my realistic potential line up for next year, at least vs. RHP: RF Choo 2B Beckham CF Garcia C McGann 1B Abreu DH Dunn LF Viciedo 3B ??? (Ideally, a LH hitting decent fielder, if there is one out there and available) SS Semien That means de Aza is either gone, or the 4Th outfielder See, even after all that, you're relying on Beckham/Garcia as your #2 and #3 hitters.

Gordon is a below average ML player. You just keep him until something better comes along, then you drop him right away. The payroll is so low now that his arbitration raise is no problem to eat for the sake of some stability. If I had to guess, I'd say 2014 will be his last year with us.

QUOTE (flavum @ Sep 13, 2013 -> 04:41 PM) Last 162 games: 62-100 But remember--we're not that far away.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Sep 13, 2013 -> 02:46 PM) Pinch hitting in the fourth inning. Okay. just playin out the ol' string

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 12, 2013 -> 11:20 PM) I actually wouldn't be against making Danks and Hector our lefty setup guys. It makes some sense when you think about it. I'm sick of trotting guys like Veal/Thornton/Boone Logan, et all, out there. How bout take one of our current arms and make him a reliable lefty reliever?? What?

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Sep 12, 2013 -> 02:17 PM) This. We need a changing of the guard, even if the "leaders" of the new team aren't on the roster, currently. Also, while I totally love the dude, and look forward to his statue and managerial tenure with the team , I really hope they don't bring back Paulie in any capacity next year. Eeyore version of Paulie just isn't helping in any way. I do want McCann however, but so many other suitors might make it unrealistic. I think he'd help the most , as a high OBP/OPS, LHB, we could put in the 3 hole most games. I also would love to land Abreu, assuming they love what they see at the workouts - he'd be a logical cleanup, I'd hope. It's likely we have a much better chance of landing Abreu, of the two. I still want to add a lefty or SH bat, somewhere, to the mix, regardless of what we're able to do with Dunn. Haha, Eeyore version. I always use Zombie, but I think I like Eeyore better.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 11, 2013 -> 10:24 PM) Avi slumping of late. He has a lot of holes in his swing that hopefully they close up next year. This was a very depressing game with regards to our offense. But hey, we're acquiring Cabrera and Trout this offseason! He's got pitch selection issues more than hole in his swing, IMO. The pitches he's getting beat on are the types of pitches lots of people get beat on, he needs to lay off of them. Also, he doesn't appear to be able to catch up to good velocity, even if it's right in the zone. Looks like he's trying to be a breaking ball hitter.