Eminor3rd

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2013 -> 03:52 PM) Right. Frankly, defense is also dependent upon scouting, coaching, and the defense of others around you too. Guys typically do not improve their defense, but it is not unheard of nor uncommon. I've seen Jay make some really good plays in the outfield in the past, but that doesn't make him a strong defender. End of the day, I have no problem if the Sox were to bring in Jon Jay in a small trade - I like De Aza, so there's no reason I'd dislike Jay - I just think they need to aim for younger players than that. Yeah, for Jay, it would be a vet for vet swap that would make me happy.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 11, 2013 -> 09:06 AM) I saw you guys had a discussion on this, but B-R has these numbers widely available under team batting splits. Sox #3 hitters have hit in to 17 DPs. That's actually fewer than #2 hitters, who have hit into 20 DPs. And #5 hitters have hit into 19 DPs. It may be up lately, but Dunn was hitting 3rd for a large portion of the year and, slow as he is, he just does not ground into many double plays due to the TTO threat he is. Consider this: Adam Dunn has hit into fewer double plays this year (2) than Avisail Garcia has with the White Sox (3). QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Sep 11, 2013 -> 10:44 AM) That is exactly why Dunn should be batting in front of your best hitters and not behind them. He is likely to take a walk and be a baserunner to be driven in, and he is unlikely to GIDP and rob your best hitters of a chance to hit with men on base. Precisely!

QUOTE (scs787 @ Sep 11, 2013 -> 01:38 PM) Indeed, but I didn't know he was bad defensively(wite isn't the only one saying this) so that kinda throws a wrench into my desire for him. Using UZR Jay is actually a worse CFer than ADA, -3.7 vs -7.2. Only CFer (I put the minimum at 800 innings) worse is Choo at a horrendous -15.6. Jay does offer the ability to get on base but I get the feeling the White Sox will wanna put an emphasis on defense so I'm not sure he fits. When looking at all these UZR stats, 2 guys stick out as players I'd like the Sox to try and acquire. Gerrado Parra and Colby Rasmus. They both are in the top 10 in UZR amongst players who have played CF at least 500 innings, both left handed, and both have a good bat to go with their gloves. With Melky/Gose/Bautista in Toronto and Eaton/Pollock/Ross in AZ both may be available for the right deal. Single season UZR isn't a great indicator of future performance, unfortunately, which is why so many people don't like it. It's a good descriptor, but a bad predictor.

This team is unwatchable

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 10, 2013 -> 09:14 PM) Actually I found it on ESPN's stats. The Sox no.3 hitters are 13th's in the ML for GDP's which is pretty good/bad considering we're 27nd in OBP or if you prefer our leadoff hitters are 12th's in OBP and our no. 2 hitters are last in MLB and our no.9 hitters are last in the AL in OBP by a wide margin .234 for 15th place to .250 for 14th . I didn't use MLB for no. 9 hitters since the of NL teams have pitchers bat 9th most of the time . I just meant in general. Not Sox only

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 10, 2013 -> 07:31 PM) Is there a stat that shows DP's by position in the batting order ? I swear our 3 hitter's must lead the league. Three hitters, overall, hit into more DPs than any other spot. Part of Tango's research on batting order years ago.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 10, 2013 -> 04:08 PM) I think much of that has to do with Williams' competitive drive. This isn't to say that Hahn isn't competitive or doesn't want to win, but I think Williams wanted to win every single year, whereas Hahn is more of a bigger picture guy. There were several years where the Sox really should have been rebuilding and tearing down and instead they built it back up. Hahn, while he hasn't gone full rebuild, did deal off quite a few big pieces this season. Williams never really dealt that many pieces at one time. That's more of what I was getting at, which I think we are kind of getting at. Williams did seem to indicate he was close to going in this direction after 2010, but again, I think this transitional phase between GMs has always been the goal of the Sox. Now, that part is just my general belief and I have no proof of that whatsoever. At some point, too, your job becomes on the line. Outside of Brian Cashman, GMs have fairly short shelf lives. Seems like you get a free pass to "clean up" the previous GMs regime for a couple years, but once you're into win-now mode once, it seems like you have to keep winning to keep your job. Very few guys get to rebuild twice.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Sep 10, 2013 -> 12:10 PM) There are a lot of 16-game stretches that don't include the Astros or Twins. lol

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 10, 2013 -> 03:30 PM) There's no way I'd want Jay. He probably steps into a 4th outfielder's role with the Cardinals after this season. He's an OK player with a decent stick, but he doesn't hit for power, doesn't have real good speed, and he's not that strong of a defender. He's also a free agent after 2015 and turns 29 next year. Essentially, he's Alejandro De Aza...with worse power and speed. Regardless, I tend to doubt the Cards would have interest in Alexei. He seems to be a good fit, but they have so many pieces everywhere else that I think they can get away with a bit of a hole at SS as long as they can get a good glove. Well, Jay is at least an on base threat. I'm not saying we should/could get him, but we do need to prioritize OBP guys. Jay is having a down year, and he's still at .343.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 10, 2013 -> 12:53 PM) Hahn made it pretty clear in an interview with Bernstein right after the trade deadline that in the past few seasons, when they were devoting most of the financial resources to the big league club, they thought the best use of their dollars was to take some shots at guys that were big risks but had big upsides. They knew most of these guys would miss, but they hoped that they would hit on one or two of them. Rather than draft the Lance Broadways and the Kyle McCulloch's of the world with what little dollars they had available, they figured they would buy a few lottery tickets instead. At least then, they might have a chance at someone with high upside, albeit slim. I think this is it ^ Since the post-Borchard administration was not going to spend competitively, they could not expect to get high-end talent in the mid-rounds, so they had to choose from the next tier below. Seems when you are bargain shopping, you can choose high ceiling or high floor, but not both. The Buster Poseys and Evan Longorias are in a higher bracket. But this is different now with the current CBA. Talent will be distributed much more based on draft pick and much less based on draft budget. This is good for us because it basically brings everyone else to the level Reinsdorf was going to stay anyway.

Scherzer has this locked up pending a collapse.

I wear a Chris Sale shirsey at least once a week. Now we know how Seattle has felt about Felix all these years.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 10, 2013 -> 10:01 AM) I think there is a problem identifying guys who are going to hit. They have developed pitching just fine, but you would think if they had drafted guys who could or would hit, considering how they have pawned off prospects on other teams, at least a couple of them over the years would have some success. I understand they like the toolsy guys who they hope to develop, but almost all their top hitting prospects since Crede and Rowand and Jeremy Reed have been huge swing and miss ridiculously high strikeout rate guys who really don't offset that with a ton of homers and a good OBP. It's almost as if they draft the same player year after year and hope this time it will be different. I'd like to see them just one draft, concentrate on baseball players the first several rounds, not athletes. Being incredibly fast or strong does you no good if you can't hit the ball, or lay off pitches out of the strike zone, or can get a decent jump. I agree with this 100%. Seems like the Cardinals, in particular, have been immensely successful with this approach over the past decade.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 10, 2013 -> 08:20 AM) As much as I didn't admire KW, I think everyone needs to keep one thing straight. The farmhands for the most part he "sold off" weren't going to make the White Sox any better than they are. Gio is an exception, but other than that, he traded a bunch of garbage for mostly garbage, but I would say he came out ahead overall. There is no doubt the Sox haven't developed hitters worth a darn for an alarming length of time, but it's not like the guys he traded became stars. They couldn't hit for their new teams. It's much less about KW trading prospects and much more about the organization refusing to spend competitively on acquiring amateur talent. It's probably also a failure in player development.

QUOTE (ron883 @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 11:13 PM) I wouldn't be surprised if AJ juiced last year. i dont buy that jump in homeruns at that age. either way, going on 37, i expect a significant decline for a catcher. no thanks. That's the kind of thing you'd say if you didn't actually watch him play at all. Having watch 120 or so games of him last year, I have absolutely no reason to accuse him of juicing -- he simply ran into more balls last year. None of them were cheapies, none of them looked anything different than his normal homers. A lot of them were on breaking balls low and inside that he was notorious for whiffing on so much the year before. It was very clearly just an adjustment he made to be able to look for those pitches in two strike counts, in reaction to an adjustment pitchers made to him never looking for that pitch before.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 06:15 PM) The problem is what kids are you talking about? I would think sample sizes are growing big enough to suggest DeAza and Tank are not good major leaguers. Ditto Beckham (hitting wise; great glove). Kepp is a disaster and Conor is not a major league caliber regular. He's a super sub type. Catcher is also a huge black hole; Paulie is about done and Dunn is Dunn. Blah. So I don't understand what our "core" is besides A. Garcia. Sox need to spend some money and make the RIGHT DECISIONS this time at several positions. We're going to need to trade 2 starters in our system as well to get an impact bat that way. Which 2? Better make the right call on that, Rick H. p.s. I am not TOTALLY against keeping DeAza and Tank but you have to admit there are huge ? marks regarding those 2 guys now. You're right we don't have much, but that's unfortunately why a couple free agents isn't enough to make it happen. It's a rough situation, but spending money in free agency not only won't solve it, but it'll but the solution off even further. This is the product of selling out the system and drafting poorly for several years -- it works out fine as long as all of your acquisitions keep working out, but if a few of them bomb at the same time, you can't do anything until the money clears. This is why so many of us feel like high draft picks and prospects are important, because we don't want to see ourselves in this position again. We want Hahn to bite the bullet and do this right so that we an be back to expecting our team to be competitive years after year. This stuff won't help much next year, you're right, but a couple expensive old FAs won't help enough to get us a winner, so we have no choice but to bide our time. We're going to have to eat it for a little while, but if we stay the course, it won't have to be for long. If we get all rash and impatient, we're most likely going to be frustratingly in the middle for a long time.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 05:48 PM) The problem is that free agency isn't what it used to be. Therefore, if there are guys out there this offseason that solve critical needs and may not break the bank, like possibly Abreu & McCann, you pretty much have to pursue them. Obviously you don't do anything stupid, but you don't pass on them because 2014 might be a transitional year. Otherwise, you may be waiting a long time before there's anything worth using your financial flexibility on. I agree with this 100%. I'm sorry, I thought I mentioned that already. Target any player, FA or not, that is properly or undervalued that will provide value beyond 2015.

QUOTE (pettie4sox @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 03:23 PM) Come on Marty look what the Red Sox did in one year. They went from zero to hero! Right but also look at what the Jays did. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. The Red Sox also already had a ton more talent than us. Pedroia, Ortiz, Ellsbury, Salty. Their offseason was about finding a new group of complementary pieces.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 03:19 PM) The Sox are going to lose 95+ games the time isn't now. Exactly. 2014 is a "transitional year." You go into it with the primary goal of seeing what you have. The kids get a chance to break out or fade away. Now you know what your core is, and you set to gradually improve each year going forward. It isn't splash time.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 02:13 PM) There will be some lefties I want the Sox to consider, because I want nothing to do with Veal or Purcey as a significant piece. So hard to get relievers to work out in free agency though. Guys on deals like that of Lindstrom, if they are available, I'm all for. But nothing like a Joaquin Benoit contract.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 02:26 PM) This is what I don't understand. If guys haven't clearly made themselves top 3 picks right now, why would next college or HS season be enough to say, yeah that guy is a future MLB star? It seems to be putting a heck of a lot of weight on 60 games, if that. Well, that's a LOT of time for guys that young though. I mean it's a whole season for them. The difference a year can make when you're 17 or 21 or whatever is huge. It's 60 games plus a winter of growing and working out. Plus there will be injuries. Rodon could tear his UCL or something, which would decrease the value of the first pick but increase the value of like the 5th pick because there'd be one less guy left. This year's class was supposed to be really bad, but then as it got closer, the media prospect guys, at least, were impressed with how it had improved over the couple months leading up to draft day. There's just a ton more volatility as you are talking about younger guys.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 02:12 PM) Maybe not at the time they didn't seem meaningless, but as the season unfolded, they became meaningless. Isn't trying to see into the future what we all are trying to do? The standings now are meaningless, but playing well may not be meaningless. The Sox were awful in 2007. For quite a while they were in position to grab the #1 pick. They had a good September dropping them to 8th and they picked Beckham. I think there is only 1 player with a higher career WAR than Beckham picked before him and he wasn't picked top 3. And who knows what affect that September had on the next season when the Sox made the playoffs. Buster Posey was picked #5, by far the prize of that draft, and it wasn't signability. He signed for $50k more than Tim Beckham who was chosen #1. A couple of good hitters and this team is right back into it. Cleveland was horrid and added Swisher, Bourn, Reynolds. Reynolds is gone, Bourn hasn't hit much and Swisher's numbers haven't been what they normally are. If the Sox sign the correct guys, and a couple of their young bats take a step up, they should be OK next year. I just want them to play well. If they drop to 5th, a future All Star will be available. You may be right when we look back at the draft, that the top picks didn't matter. But for now, I want them to have as much flexibility as possible. We don't know how the class will shake out, there may be a clear top two, or top four, or whatever. The higher our pick, though, the better our chances. That's all it is. Like a few have said before -- if Ws are coming because of legitimate improvements in our core players, then that's fine, that's great. But if it's bad process producing good results, it won't last, and we're just losing one potential advantage for the future, however small it is. When I watch though, I never actually end up hoping for futility. I don't think my head can do that. But when the game is over and we lost, I feel just fine about it. Kinda like Jerksticks is saying, I think. I probably would be upset in retrospect though if I saw someone do something stupid and it worked out. At the end of the day, I just want our hitters to have a clue. If they can't get it, I want to replace them as fast as possible. Man, I've been watching other teams lately because the Sox are so ugly, and I gotta say, it makes me so envious to see how good teams are playing. Hitters just hitting, Watching the Sox all season has made hitting seem like a futile effort, but it really isn't for most of the league. Blech.

They're going to try to win in 2014. But if they are smart, they won't spend money on anyone that doesn't have substantial value for several years. YES: Abreu McCann (He moves very naturally to 1B/DH when Dunn goes. I'm assuming Konerko is done) NO: Morales Granderson Ellsbury (Injured literally every year, already 30, relies on speed) Cano (Will still be good, but will be overpaid quickly and substantially. Sox must seek surplus value. Plus Second basemen don;t usually age well) Every pitcher

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 9, 2013 -> 01:29 PM) Yeah, but if they lost on Opening Day and more often the first week, it would have helped their draft position correct? So those wins were just as meaningless and hurtful to draft position now. If you are going to cuss Gillaspie for going deep now, you should be upset Flowers hit a game winning homer on Opening Day. The Sox were 1-9 this roadtrip. It's just obnoxious to me people were upset they won a game. Not upset because 1 out of 10 was embarrassing, but because 1 out of 10 was too much. The Sox have 19 games left. They are probably going to win at least 8 or 9 of them. Yeah, but on opening day they weren't meaningless. That's the distinction here. We hold out hope when there's hope to have, but when you're 25 games under 500 with like a month to go, the W column becomes meaningless. Even tomorrow I'm going to be holding out for hope on opening day, and probably well into June at the very very least. Hopiong for losses in September when you have the worst non-Astros record in the league is way different than what you're describing.

The Bears thing makes no sense to me at all. It's like week one, right? The Bears have a shot at contending. Making the playoffs is easier in football. They have a real chance at making the playoffs and therefore some chance of winning it all. The White Sox are 57-85 on September 9th, 24.5 GB of the division leader. The ship has sailed for this team.