Eminor3rd

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:40 PM) lol i agree - but remember when we all hated him... that was funny. Man, I gotta admit, I hated him A LOT.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:36 PM) vlad isn't 26 and 27 like tulo and hanley respectively... you can't say that hanley's last season is indicative of hanley next year either! it's called an outlier, and they happen. If I recall PK has had a few of those. Does that mean he's not a good player? Tulo has been significantly better for the past two seasons, Hanley has been trending downward for three. Numbers from four years ago don't have much predictive value.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:29 PM) So tulo's allowed a bad season and dip, and Hanley isn't? at the same age - 24-26 Tulo WAR 18.5 Hanley WAR 19.5 To say Tulo is clearly the better player is just incorrect... I'm sure Hanley's gonna bounce back in a big way this year. We can revisit it then. lol No, I'm saying that what happened 3 or 4 years ago isn't what's happening now. You could argue that Hanley has had a better career overall, but not that Hanley is, right now, the better player. If you went off of career cumulative WAR, you could argue that Vladimir Guerrero should be in way more demand than Prince Fielder.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 03:38 PM) you seriously just ignored the numbers there didn't you... wtf?? Quoting career numbers makes no sense at all. This graph shows a different story: http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?play...1,8001&wg=3 Hanley falling off a cliff after an early peak, Tulo sustaining three consecutive seasons at roughly 6 wins.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 03:26 PM) please tell me how .300/.378/.475 from your SS is bad. are you flippin' kidding me? Tack on 21 HR and 32 SB and that's straight up elite. That was 2010. Don't feed me this bulls*** "bad at the plate for 2 years" thing. And yeah last year was down, but he's still the best SS in the game. How many "down" seasons has Reyes had? FOUR sub-.800 OPS seasons to Hanley's ONE. come on. 2010 was better then I remembered, but last year wasn't. Also, Tulo is the best SS in the game, and I don't think it's particularly close. Even if I'm selling Hanley's bat short, he's below average on defense. How come A-Rod was happy to move to third at age 28? Because it was best for the team (or at least perceived to be. Ironically Jeter has been overrated defensively his whole career). Hanley is acting like a child. Reyes is the better defensive SS, and they need help at 3B anyway. No-brainer move.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 03:21 PM) They can have him. Not a Gavin fan? Who would we target prospect-wise?

QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 03:19 PM) to Hanley's credit - the Marlins are dips***s for signing a WORSE player to play SS than the one they already have. If I'm Hanley I'm pissed too. Hanley is a bad defensive SS who has been bad at the plate the last two years. So what if you move to 3B? It makes the team better. Doesn't he want to win? I think he's being a crybaby, and his last two years don't give him the last word anymore.

QUOTE (kwill @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:53 PM) Rumor has it that the Braves are shopping for an impact bat and willing to part ways with both Jurrijans and Prado. I really so the White Sox having any use for these two guys. Maybe Jurrijans since he is young cheap starter, but they have a fantastic farm system. I wonder if they would take Thorton and Quentin for some of those good prospects they have over there. You know, I know Jurrjens has some red flags for health, but he's only 25. Might not be horrible to grab him the long term. How many year does he have before free agency? Then again, it could be the Peavy expereince all over agian.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:57 PM) Thanks Mr Obvious! I can actually see them wanting Floyd more for the extra year. Think of all the wasted cash they have in Lackey. If Ortiz accepts arbitration, they don't have much space until the luxury tax, which I read Gammons said they want to avoid at all costs.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:48 PM) My Red Sox source told me that, this could be a 5 to 6 player trade. With either Danks or Floyd along with Quentin to the Red Sox and some of the players that KW wants back is Reddick, Ranaudo, Igelsias and Doubront. he also said that they been working on this all day.. Word is Ranaudo is overrated. He'd be a good piece, but I hope KW doesn't treat him like an elite prospect

QUOTE (Cali @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:34 PM) I complained about the lack of excitement this off-season and hoping that the Winter Meetings would ramp it up a bit. So far the biggest story has been the Santos trade and that was hardly a blockbuster. No crazy trades, None of the Big 4 Free Agents signed (Pujols/Fielder/Buehrle/Wilson) Come on baseball! How is Reyes not part of the Big 4? Pujols and Wilson deals are on the verge.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 01:44 PM) Gavin Floyd and Jordan Danks to Arizona for Gerardo Parra and Patrick Corbin/Wade Miley. What do we do with Parra though?

QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 11:51 AM) But what is 'best case scenario'? I think every prospect has 'an upside'...and NONE have the upside of 'greatest pitcher ever'? But you are right, because this isn't an exact science Molina "could" become the next Walter Johnson. Reality speaking his upside appears to be a middle of the rotation pitcher (at this time). After we see him a bit more, he gains experience, the hitters adjust to him, then we are well within our right to re-evaulate him and adjust his 'upside'...which could be better (or worse) than initially thought. I don't think anyone knows (not even Kenny Williams) just HOW GOOD Molina can be. It appears his potential is all over the map, which for this deal...I DONT LIKE. To deal someone like Santos I'd have liked to have gotten multiple prospects (even one a bit lower ranked) or a single top prospect that has had more time at more advanced levels. There are still too many unknowns about Molina. Hell, i can't even get a good idea of where his fastball sits. I've seen high 80s...and I've seen 96. I agree with you, but here's how I see it: We have to admit that, especially with Paddy, the Sox are in a much better position to evaluate this prospect than we of the internet. If there was consensus all around the league, we could safely assume his quality level is in line with that consensus, but there isnt' Some people are saying 'meh' while others are saying top-of-the-rotation prospect. I think we have no choice but to give KW and Paddy the benefit of the doubt on how good of a prospect he is. Like you said, we don't know if his fastball is 87 or 96, but you can bet that KW/Paddy know exactly how fast it is. What we can evaluate is the strategy behind it. So, I look at it as Santos (young, promising RP aged 30 on a good contract) for Molina (legitimate AA SP prospect with top of the rotation ceiling), which I'm way down with. Bad teams should dump RP's at peak value for high end pitching prospects. So, are we critiquing the trade or are we critiquing the Sox ability to scout and evaluate talent? In my opinion, we (as posters) have little to contribute to the latter discussion at this point. If we're evaluating the trade by itself, assume that Molina is a top shelf prospect in the Sox opinion, I think it's harder to find fault.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:06 PM) There's no doubt in my mind that KW should be targeting Grandal. We're going to need a catcher after next season, and in no way do I trust Flowers to become an everyday catcher. Reds have a need for pitching, and Sox have surplus of guys to get rid of. I'm definitely on the Grandal bandwagon too. However, I do think Conger would be a nice consolation prize. Similarly, at the cost of AJ and cash, it might be worht it to go that route and save Danks/Floyd to get pitchers back.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 12:12 PM) I think Floyd will be traded to the Orioles for Schoop and Avery.. Interesting, Schoop could be available since they have Machado. Seems like a lot for Floyd though, no? Maybe not.

Take a walk with me. Angels are clearly trying to contend, right? Moreso if they land CJ Wilson. They acquired Ianetta after they saw what Napoli did. Ianetta is a lefty masher, and his backup is a promising bat-first catcher named Hank Conger who is also right0handed and has, for whatever reason, received the Napoli treatment from Scioscia to this point. THE SOLUTION: AJ Pierzynski + $4m to LAA for Hank Conger Angels get a veteran left-hander to platoon with Ianetta, and someone who Scioscia would LOVE because he's a grindy, pitching-staff friendly, gamer type. Sox get a better version of Tyler Flowers, and a solid chance that one of them sticks. What say you? Also, what other REALISTIC Dark Horse trade proposals can you think of?

Ha, "if he's the second coming of Greg Maddux, then he's a future #2."

FWIW, Rockies just traded Huston Street for literally nothing. PTBNL and salary relief.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 09:43 AM) They had better be damn sure this guy is going to be a quality starter here for several years or this trade is just not logical. You are not "restocking your system" when you trade 1 for 1 off your Major League team for a AA player, btw. Would you rather he got two more Zach Stewarts back? Seriously, based on what AA said in his post-trade interviews, Molina was considered untouchable by at least half the front office, and they were passionately arguing against making this trade. Personally, I'm glad KW is finally targeting some high-ceiling guys instead of a bunch of upper minors role players. Yeah, it's a gamble, but all prospects are. It's the only way.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 05:06 PM) There would be no 'risk' involved. I just don't want to watch him play baseball anymore. He's terrible. Fair enough.

If at league minimum and CQ (or Rios) is gone, then whatever. Otherwise, Lillibomb should play that role.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 04:19 PM) No, that's no good. He's unproven and not worthy. You don't see other teams (Braves with Kimbrel, Brewers with Axford) handing over closer duties to guys with no track record of ML success. You forgot your green!

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 6, 2011 -> 03:36 PM) What the f***. Man, I loved Sergio. Getting only one player for him is a failure. And Buehrle leaving free agency? f*** it. I'm off the KW train. But blow the f***ing team up. Blow it the f*** up. But seriously, Molina looks good. But what the f***? Needed something else. I'm sure we could have gotten two crappier players instead. Would that be better? Also note that we give no salary relief, which surely would have netted us a fringe guy. But we aren't in a position to give salary relief.

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