Eminor3rd

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 5, 2018 -> 02:49 PM) Examples? If Soria was thought of as highly around MLB as he is on this board, not only would the Royals have been able to trade him and not eat money, they wouldn't have had to include a valuable piece with him. They had to do both. Just to be clear, the argument you're making is "Soria can't be good because if he was, the Royals wouldn't have traded him." The argument you're NOT making is "Soria is bad as evidenced by his peripherals."

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 5, 2018 -> 11:38 AM) I will say he will not get an organization top 20 guy back. Let's wager. lol ok

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 5, 2018 -> 11:19 AM) This peripherals argument is weak. I look at his peripherals in 2016 and they suggest he is well on the road to done. Now his peripherals, like his traditional stats improve and suddenly he is a good flip candidate. The trade was fine, but lets not talk about him being a good flip candidate. A good flip candidate gets you something interesting back. This guy will get you maybe, if all goes well, a 26 year old in A ball who throws 100 and walks about 1 an inning. How do you figure ANY of that? His peripherals in 2016 suggest he had bad homerun luck, but everything else was fine. There might be something else going on that's important, but if so, it certainly can't be gleaned from his peripherals. What are you referring to? And if he puts together a strong first half, given his affordable salary and team option, he'll absolutely bring back a significant return.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jan 5, 2018 -> 10:36 AM) Arguing over if he had a good or bad season is pretty irrelevant . Sox got 2 RP's they either flip (both of them) or keep (Avilan) for a song and got cash. There's nothing to dislike about this deal. 2 major league bullpen arms who not only solidify our bullpen needs and since relievers are a hot commodity at the deadline Sox put themselves in a position to add more prospects. And what did they give up ? A guy who was just exposed to the Rule 5 draft and didn't get picked by any team. 2 major leaguers who could be on the hot list at the deadline and replace parts traded at the deadline last year for a guy the Sox basically had no use for. This might be the best trade Hahn ever made that on the surface appears to be a nothing trade. Exactly. Soria can both (1) have had a bad season in terms of results and (2) have shown a lot of reasons to believe he'll have a decent season going forward. The latter is enough reason to to be interested in getting him, and the former is why the opportunity presented itself.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jan 5, 2018 -> 10:10 AM) Greg, stop. I don't need to ask Caulfield or any dumbass Kansas City goobers s***. You are acting like a clown. I know, I should be used to it by now but I'm trying to catch up on an informative thread and you've hijacked it with nonsense. Let's pump the brakes here, man.

Like all rebuilders after year one, it's going to be a high-variance team. It's possible that players develop quicker than they should. But the expectation should be high draft pick. Success is possible but would be a pleasant surprise. Root for players this year.

QUOTE (KnightsOnMintSt @ Jan 4, 2018 -> 06:31 PM) This is how I look at a potential Yelich trade: Moncada, Giolito, Lopez, Jimenez, Robert, Hansen, and Kopech are all off limits. But after that, I think I would be willing to do about any 3 players, plus a lower level prospect. So if they would accept something like: Rutherford, Cease, Dunning and Hickman, I would do that for sure. They definitely would NOT accept that offer.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 4, 2018 -> 10:39 PM) He's so bad a city is rejoicing he's gone. I'll stop now but you guys have to calm down about Soria. He's really bad. Ask Caulfield. He has the numbers. If Coop can save him then yes you could 'maybe' flip him. But if Coop can't, I'm surprised you guys who don't seem to want to spend Jerry's money are OK with 9 million going to this guy per season. Here's how bad he is: "Over the last two seasons, Soria had 14 blown saves and a 3.89 ERA. He became a lightning rod for the frustrations of Royals fans, who had become accustomed to unprecedented success from a bullpen combination of Kelvin Herrera, Wade Davis and Greg Holland." Here's why it's a good pickup: despite the blown saves and high ERA, Soria posted excellent peripherals last year, which means there is reason to believe that he'll have a bounceback season and end up a trade-able piece. Given we have nothing in our bullpen and aren't trying to win anyway, it seems like a good risk to take. Might not work out, but there's very little downside.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 4, 2018 -> 03:47 PM) On a per game basis, his WAR the last 3 seasons is on par with Jose Abreu. He's also a year and a half younger. If Abreu signed an extension, not many people would be complaining. I don't know why they would complain about a LH 3b/!b guy with power. I wouldn't give him $20 million a year. Jose Abreu means much more to the franchise than does a free agent from a hated rival. Moreover, much of what has kept Moustakas on par with Abreu is his defense, which declined sharply last season probably due to an injury that could possibly cause long-term effects. Might not, but it's a significant risk factor. It doesn't look like he'll get $20mm, but he'll almost certainly get $15mm. The point is there is a lot of downside with a guy like this, and the while the cost may not be astronomical, it's still certainly significant. It's a risk you don't need to take because what he brings to the table (corner power with passable defense that might be good or bad going forward) isn't difficult to find at market rates closer to the time you need it. Again I'm not arguing with your idea that sometimes you have to buy a guy early because that's when he's available, I just don't think Moustakas is that guy. Your Edwin Jackson example is perfectly apt, but it should be a cautionary tale, not an argument in favor. It's easy to see and defend Theo's strategy with Jackson, but that's what it looks like when you pick the wrong guy.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 4, 2018 -> 03:17 PM) How pissed will Soxtalk be if Machado, Harper, and Donaldson all sign with teams not named the White Sox and the White Sox need some offense? Homers are what wins now. This guy could be a 40 HR guy at GRF. I understand it may be a year too soon, but like trades, a year too soon is usually better than a year too late. If the price is right, I don't see how it's a bad idea, unless they are on 2020 as the target year. Then I could see, no way. Eventually, the White Sox are going to have to add something other than prospects. Wellington Castillo is hardly aligned perfectly for the rebuild. Moustakas would be aligned a bit better than him, and he's an asset that doesn't cost you your better prospects, just basically JR's money. Theo went after FA pitching early. Edwin Jackson didn't work out. He wanted a couple of others he was lucky he didn't get. Prices aren't going to come down next year or the year after. If the deal is right, you make it. If Moustakas signs for $5m per year, then the Castillo comparison becomes fair. Obviously, if the price gets too low, there becomes a point where it definitely makes sense. But we need to remember that even though it feels like we have a s***-ton of payroll space available now, those $10-15m deals can become really problematic with a franchise like ours that isn't willing to push the payroll up to the CBT like other large markets. I couldn't care less about how rich JR is now or in the future, but the reality is he's only going to spend so much, and the story of the White Sox during this recent playoff drought can pretty much be summed up as "blowing payroll on 2 WAR players whose names carry more weight than their actual production." For team that has been 10 million bucks short on filling their holes several times, there's a lot of risk signing an average player two years before you need him.

I'm interested. LMK if you still have space, thanks.

I don't think the draft pick is the issue as much as the timeline. He profiles as a guy who will likely be an average player by the time we need him -- and while average players are important, you can sign them when the time is right without absorbing the risk of early decline and the opportunity cost of a better option developing (Burger? Machado?) that you'd incur by getting them early. It's not a bad idea, I just don't think Moustakas has enough upside to be the right guy.

If you remember before KD originally left, he was frequently talking about trying to find time to do a complete tool grade database for every player in the MLB and MiLB, but it was just impossible to even begin with all the list-related work that needed done. Now, he's alluded to taking on "larger scale projects he's been excited about," so I bet he's going to be primarily focused on stuff like that, secondarily on supporting EL and doing other content. Which makes sense.

I think this goes here given the temporary closure of Diamond Club.

Hell yeah, especially if we move Avi. He wouldn't take ABs from anyone who is demanding them -- he's used to being a 4th/5th OF now.

There's a price where this makes sense for us, even though it would be significant prospects. However, I think if that point is reached, someone else will be able and motivated to outbid.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Dec 22, 2017 -> 12:44 AM) Totally agree. Ok, that was the entire point.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Dec 21, 2017 -> 09:28 PM) No, you said. "Moncada/Kopech/Devers are all top ten overall prospects." Not only is that different, but they were never top 10 prospects at the same time, which was my point. The value of trading those 3 guys together right now (obviously impossible) versus trading those 3 guys together 1 year ago is not the same. Kopech hadn't taken that next step yet. He was less proven, less of a sure thing, and certainly not widely regarded as a top prospect. Just in terms of similar rankings, you could equate that trio a year ago to the current trio of Eloy, Kopech, and Robert. Which is very much NOT Giolito, Hansen, and Robert. Right?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 21, 2017 -> 02:50 PM) Yes, he was pretty bad in AAA, but he when he was traded, he was somewhere between 10-25. For sure -- but Giolito was being brought up as a potential NOW piece for Yelich, so we're talking about his current value as compared to the PAST value of the Sale package.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 21, 2017 -> 02:42 PM) Pre 2017 Giolito was 25 BA 12 MLB 10 BP Midseason BA: 75 BP: 31

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 21, 2017 -> 02:39 PM) I think you're really sleeping on these guys. Giolito not make a top 100 list because why? I seriously doubt he would of fallen out of the top 50s on most lists despite his slow start to the 2017 season. Luis Robert was ranked 45th, 23rd, & 37th on mid-season lists (BA, MLBP, FG) based almost solely on third hand scouting reports. He's almost certainly going to rise quickly in those rankings when these evaluators finally get to see him for themselves. And what do you mean Robert might be lower because of this age? Hansen is probably 50ish caliber prospect right now, but he has a ton of helium and will rise significantly with AA success. I don't think your evaluations take away from your initial point, but I think you're vastly underselling the quality of a proposed Giolito/Hansen/Robert package. I mean, I think that's a really great package. I'm not saying it's garbage. My initial reaction is simply to the comment that it's comparable to the "desired 2016" Sale package of Moncada/Devers/Kopech, and it just isn't. That's all I'm trying to say.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 21, 2017 -> 02:20 PM) If Giolito was eligible - you really don't think he would be a top prospect? He fell pretty hard going into last year in a bunch of lists -- I think there were a couple lists that left him off even then. He was back quarter in practically all the rest. I know that he made it to the MLB with a good ERA, but the peripherals are downright terrifying -- and for prospect guys, that's important. I just don't know that you can look at a guy that took a second attempt at the big leagues, struck out 6 batters per nine and stuck in games thanks to a 92% strand rate and think that he's MORE promising. Not at all saying he isn't a valuable prospect, but in the context of the conversation (Yelich value), a package led by GIolito in 2017 isn't in the same stratosphere as a package led by Moncada in 2016.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Dec 21, 2017 -> 12:36 PM) ...aaaand, that's not what I was arguing. I was saying to characterize Moncada/Devers/Kopech as all being top 10 prospects at the same time with the Red Sox is blatantly incorrect. Moncada and Devers were. Devers was outside ten in some. Kopech wasn't but everyone knew he had helium. I don't know why you're arguing with me. I said these guys were "top ten types." If you're gonna nail me for whether or not some of them were LITERALLY in the ten as opposed to being just outside it, when the whole point is that those guys were a tier or two above the others being discussed, I really just don't know what you're trying to prove.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Dec 21, 2017 -> 12:33 PM) If the Sox are trading Avi to the Giants, I want Ramos. He and 2 lottery tickets would work for me. Definitely -- Ramos is the get there. It could be Ramos straight up and I think I'd be happy.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Dec 21, 2017 -> 12:09 PM) No one ever said the two packages were equal today. My point was 2017 Giolito/Robert/Hansen = 2016 Moncada/Kopech/Devers. I still think that's wrong. Moncada was consensus 1 overall, Devers was top ten overall on many, top 20 on all. Kopech was ~50-ish usually, sure. But 2017, Giolito may not even be on some top 100s. Robert and Hansen are probably ~50-ish. Some may even be lower on Robert because of his age.